Extra Punctuation: Hating Warhammer 40k and Space Marine

[PunkRex]

The 40K universe is depressing as hell but I think thats why the idea of Super, 10 ton, killer majiggs actually works. Half the time in these super soilder games you end up asking why bother but with 40K its the ONLY option. I dont know that much about the back story but there are places in the setting that are refered to as paradise, like Ultimar and... well Ultimar but im sure theres others.

Its also why I think it works in Gears of War, which is evolution. Most of humanity was wiped out and only the strongest remenants remain. The reason their all so big and strong is because anyone weaker proberly died very quickly. I dont really know the GoW back story at all so I could be talking bollox.

Still this reveiw made me laugh, Space Marine actually go doo doo in their suits if I remember correctly.

 

[PunkRex]

Doesn't help that you play as the Ultramarines. If it has to be the Space Marines why not make it one of the more interesting/human chapters like the Blood Ravens,Salamanders or the Space Wolves. (or heck, even the Soul Drinkers or Legion of the Damned if you wanted something a bit more off the beaten path.)

You see everyone says this. The Ultra Marines arnt really boring, their the goodie two shoes, the brothers by the book, the Mr.Perfects who everyone loves to hate... actually it makes sense now.

Hate away good sir.

 

[sleeky01]

The entire franchise of Warhammer revolves around sucking its player base dry of money. The actual game pieces are expensive as hell to purchase and are incredible time consuming to paint/assemble. Then on top of it, they churn out tons of books, an MMO (they actually just started the beta for a second MMO), a CG film, a soundtrack and god knows how many video games.

Second MMO? I'm only aware of just the one. Dark Millennium.

Unless you are referring to Warhammer: Age of Reckoning, which is based on Warhammer fantasy and NOT Warhammer 40K.

And don't tell me it's the same thing.

 

[exobook]

While I'll admit that I am a WH40K fan I do have to agree with Yhatzee with at few points.

I do feel that the overuse of the space marine trope has made the gaming industry less variant. The obessesion with the glory of battle has to some extend spread out of the miltary sci-fi genre, when did you see a game recounting the horrors of war (never I think).

Still I do get the feeling that he hasn't experienced the full nature of wh40k, though it probadly wouldn't change his mind even if he had.

 

[Virgilthepagan]

As with others I'm going to don the fanboy hat for a moment. I think most of my points have been said, check out the novels to see the fleshed out side of the universe, Dark Heresy for the sort of role play you championed (yet heaven forfend you explore another universe or consider that the fans might take the universe as the basis for their own imaginative stories), and I'd add the painting process can be its own journey down creative lane.
For someone with a serious problem through both hands that makes me shake like a fifty year old boxer, learning how to overcome that and paint the figures in a way that didn't look awful is one of the happier moments of my younger years, it took time and a lot of practice, and I sometimes wonder just how much patience Yahtzee has for non gaming concepts...

Still, you've got us all on one point. GW really does like to suck the money from our pockets. It's actually the biggest reason I stopped playing a number of years back, but frankly I saved my little army.

 

[SmilingKitsune]

well that was an awful article.

 

[RDubayoo]

No-one talks about the "glory of battle" when they're trying to sleep through a shelling raid with a bad case of trench foot.

Er, of all the games that disregard the horrors of war, I really don't think WH40K is one of them. If anything, if all you get in the battlefields of that universe is some lost sleep and trench foot, then you are freaking lucky. Even in Space Marine the player is witness to the results of the Orks' massacres, and you learn that billions of people, guilty and innocent, have died. It's not terribly glorious at all.

 

[Artemis923]

Eh. I actually like the over the top, lawful good is lawful great righteousness of the Ultrasmurfs. Are other cahpters mor interesting? Well...duh. But Ultrmarines fighting Orks is like...posterboy 40k.

I'm waiting on the next game:

Khorne Berzerker: KILL! MAIM! BURN!

 

[MorganL4]

Gears of War had about zero back-story (not even in the pathetically thin user's guide). But it never pretended to. It was just stupid big muscle-dudes with no helmets shooting bad stuff from behind cover.

What bugs me about WH40K is that it PRETENDS to have a back-story but doesn't really. There's just no real explanation of motivations, economy, politics, etc. And from the extremely limited story that is there, these other levels of detail are rendered impossible. It's just WE KILL THEM, and THEY KILL US. That's it.

What I couldn't ever understand is why those huge imaginary table-top army clashes were ever considered possible or even desireable. Since the invention of the rifle it's been bad form to mass troops and advance in large numbers. It's just too easy to put too much explosive power in a targeted area for the opponent to survive. So it's all about small unit tactics and staying out of sight and behind cover. The only reason human waves worked a little in North Korea was that they were HUMAN so tactical nukes weren't used. No such problem with Orks.

It's all just unrealistic bull that only the most juvenile middle-schooler would find engaging.

The game itself may not include a whole lot of back story that is true; however if you are at all familiar with the 40K universe you would know that people have created THOUSANDS of years worth of back story.



And as far as Yahtzee's argument about preferring table top RPGs that include GMs or DMs or what have you I simply point you to this ( the game I play every Saturday: Rogue Trader [http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite.asp?eidm=78])

 

[Althus]

This was Mr.Croshaw way to get lots of interaction whit the community, if you ever want attention, just put up a opinion about a popular subject and bingo.

Its is personal opinion ,so we can only read and agree or not, but if he had grow up whit 40k instead of D&D ,he might have a different opinion about 40k, but this is obvious of course.
So he seams to prefers fantasy to SyFi its simple as that.

This is why we come here, to read other people opinions about all sort of game wise subjects.

So to me he accomplished is goal, to foment a long debate about 40k and to share is opinion.

 

[SnakeoilSage]

If I had to choose between D&D and Warhammer I'd pick D&D and just use the Warhammer models for navigating dungeon crawl maps.

Not that I have anything per se against Warhammer, but the point Yhatzee made is one I subscribe to as well. I want a game that encourages creativity beyond "These are my Space Marines and they are red an black because those are COOL colors and they're the BEST FIGHTERS FOR THE EMPERUH EVER."

These are the same people who name all their dark elves Drizzt.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

I see what Yatzhee is saying, there is some truth in it. But I think ill of him referring to it as Juvenile.

I love the back story, I never played the tabletop game, haven't bought any off the games (yet). But I bought one of the books and enjoy just looking back to it now and then and then going online to read up on more of the lore. For me it 40K combined science fiction and fantasy into something interesting.

Having played the demo and heard from my friend. Space Marine was good in that it really did the world justice, I see it as a game for the fans and in that it succeeds. They have fallen short with the plot (please stop "ancient chaos artifact" shit please). But I couldn't be happier with everything else.

Ultramarines just get hate because they were turned into mary-sues by newer writers. Ignore that aspect of them and all will be will.

 

[Malkavian]

Military/paramilitary/intelligence and associated services then. The interesting bit is the Adeptus Administratum who seem to control planets and military. and in the back-ground even they sound like inhuman monks.

Supposedly this system of governance has been going controlling the entire human galaxy for 10,000 years; which sounds like a situation where you'd have sections of the administratum fall under the control of local princes al la europe after the Roman Empire. But no, the empire is stable despite constant war.

Hence I think it would be more interesting for the empire to fragment. Hence my previous Catholic/Protestant/Orthodox analogy.

The Administratum is also everything civil matters. Infrastructure, civil services, health care that sort of thing. It's a really broad umbrella, and another reason why your chart isn't that good at describing how the society functions.

For an example, the military branch of the administratum is a section in itself, called the munitorium. While I concede war and a militaristic mindset is weaved closely into the societys structure, it is a necessity born out of constant conflict. On any number of fronts.

The empire can't fragment. If it were ever to cease functioning as it does now, humanity would perish. Which would not make it very interesting at all, since it would mean the end of the setting.


Yes. There is only war. Not as in every planet is constantly engulfed in strife, but humanity as a whole is at constant conflict, and it is barely holding. If it were to become divisioned, if the warmachine was not fed, it would falter in its defense. And if the public was not constantly scrutinized for signs of heresy, it would crumble from within. Not because not being a fervant churchgoer is a bad thing, but because chaos must be held at bay at all costs.

 

[ACman]

Military/paramilitary/intelligence and associated services then. The interesting bit is the Adeptus Administratum who seem to control planets and military. and in the back-ground even they sound like inhuman monks.

Supposedly this system of governance has been going controlling the entire human galaxy for 10,000 years; which sounds like a situation where you'd have sections of the administratum fall under the control of local princes al la europe after the Roman Empire. But no, the empire is stable despite constant war.

Hence I think it would be more interesting for the empire to fragment. Hence my previous Catholic/Protestant/Orthodox analogy.

The Administratum is also everything civil matters. Infrastructure, civil services, health care that sort of thing. It's a really broad umbrella, and another reason why your chart isn't that good at describing how the society functions.

For an example, the military branch of the administratum is a section in itself, called the munitorium. While I concede war and a militaristic mindset is weaved closely into the societys structure, it is a necessity born out of constant conflict. On any number of fronts.

The empire can't fragment. If it were ever to cease functioning as it does now, humanity would perish. Which would not make it very interesting at all, since it would mean the end of the setting.


Yes. There is only war. Not as in every planet is constantly engulfed in strife, but humanity as a whole is at constant conflict, and it is barely holding. If it were to become divisioned, if the warmachine was not fed, it would falter in its defense. And if the public was not constantly scrutinized for signs of heresy, it would crumble from within. Not because not being a fervant churchgoer is a bad thing, but because chaos must be held at bay at all costs.

Who say's that humanity would perish? The Imperium's propaganda?

If you defy the Imperium you will fall to Chaos (Ie. go to hell.): Theocratic
If we don't work together for the Imperium the imperium will fall: Fascism

It's all propaganda to support these two systems. Two types of government that I and I imagine people in the future would buck against or would be corrupt enough that people would carve out domains of their own. And I said fragment. Not fall apart. Did Europe stop working just because the Roman Empire fell? No. They became a system of feudal nationstates that paid homage to the former imperial power the papacy.You cannot tell me that a galaxywide inefficient theocratic empire wouldn't fracture.

The setting would be more interesting and dynamic if these problems or the tensions that lead to these problems were highlighted but most of the back story focuses on how space-marine chapters were formed and how they behave. And I'm with Yahtzee. Sapce Marines are boring sexless monks devoid of humanity. Interesting as part of a setting but so over emphasized that the everything else falls into the background.

Edit: I don't hate the setting just thing that the actual humanity could be a dynamic and colorful as the superhumans that inhabit it.

 

[nyysjan]

I has always bothered me that the 40k universe is essentially a massive fascist theocracy where any sort of departure from the dogma of the state is eliminated with extreme prejudice.

There's no one to side with. Space Marines are battle-crazed fanatics. Chaos is hell. Orks are well... orks. Tyranids are insectoid monsters. Eldar would exterminate mankind without a second thought if they could. Tau are space communists. Imperial Guard are part of the aforementioned fascist theocratic space empire. Cultists are either alien or chaos mad. Necrons are space-undead-robot-gods or some shit.

I always thought the emperor should be more like a space-pope. Then there could be multiple human kingdoms/federations/confederacies/compacts.

But no, any difference will be purged by a bunch of insane fanatical jihadist. Bah.

In the 40k lore the Emperor was a good person that just wanted to help humanity from themselves. Yet the chaos gods screwed him over right before he succeeded. The good thing about 40k there's no defined "good guys" every faction has their heroes, traitors and legendary battles.

Space Marines caught the bad end of the stick when the Emperor died because the damn cultist within their own ranks warped his message into what is basically Christianity on Venom. Right now if the Emperor didn't die the Space Marines might be one of the more wise legions with some wicked tech that wouldn't have been lost because they're frighted of any tech eventhough it's the shit they use everyday.

Hell I agree that people don't like the Ultramarines they're basic simple as that. I'm a fan of the Salamander chapter myself they seem better for a game because these guys are experts in close quarters combat and they use some of the more destructive weapons like flamers and multi-meltas.

The truly ironic thing is, didn't the emperor really think religion and the bigotry that can breed was holding humanity back to the point he nuked from orbit a colony one of his sons converted to the worship of his daddy? Then humanity become this massive religion worshiping the man who thought religion was our biggest stumbling block as a species?

Epic fail much?

That's just one of the funny in a sad way things that make the setting so awesome.
Not only did the Emperor fail in making a secular society he wanted, he ended up betrayed by his favorite son because the son thought the emperor intended to claim himself a god (he did not, the wholegod thing was a Tzeenth plot), he's had to helplesly watch it go on for the past 10+ millenia.

 

[JJMUG]

Edit: I mean technically the "High Lords of Terra" are supposed to be in charge? How in charge?

This is the extent of the explanation:

Of which three or four seem to be layers of government and the rest seem to be military or paramilitary.

The High Lords of Terra are in charge. Just that. The Emperor may be above them, but only in a symbolical sense, like many of the monarchies of europe. He is, for all intents and purposes, dead. A religious saint/god. There is more to him than that, but to explain how the government functions, that is sufficient.

EDIT: A little more on the High Lords - they are an oligarchy, basically, and their office is something you rise to politically within your career branch. Each High Lord has an area of expertise. I can't remember all of them, but there is a master of the feelt, a master of the assasins, and so on.Basically, one for each major/important branch of Imperial society.

As for the chart...

The ones I have underlined in read are military branches. Those in yellow are closely affiliated, but not actual military branches.

I am also almost 100 % sure that that isn't an official chart. For one thing, it is missing a branch of the Inquisition.

Space Marines are mostly separate and really only answer to the Emperor himself. The are more on level with the Inquisition, as they can tell an Inquisitor to get lost like the Dark Angels, Or go into open conflict like the Space Wolves and Black Templar. The Lexicanum can be a good place to for some answers but the table is wrong.

 

[Cid Silverwing]

Why are any of your surprised the skinny nerdy man who loves fantasy, wears a stupid hat, and has a pretentious beard doesn't like military fiction?

Because skinny nerds are "supposed" to be into juvenile war fantasy?

I hate this stereotype and I'm so glad that Yahtzee addressed this, even if indirectly.

 

[daftalchemist]

I'm no fan of space marines (on account of them looking like durp in those bellbottoms and MASSIVE shoulder pads) or 40k orks (because they have no place in a sci-fi setting, imo, and also durp), but I thought the game was fun. I went in not taking it seriously because of the aforementioned durp I perceive in space marines, and translated the game as one of those ironically over-the-top kinds of things. So it just became funny. And I'm pretty much always entertained by killing large groups of enemies with something resembling a chainsaw.

But I do have to agree about the ridiculousness of the balking at a woman in charge. But thank god those walking tank-men showed up to save her before she fainted from all the pressure of being in command!

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Hm, I don't think Yahtzee is really familiar with W40K universe. I would agree that game somewhat assumes that player is familiar with the setting and already knows in details who are Ultramarines, what's a Weirdboy etc.
Thing is, it's a good W40K game. Now, it's all depends on your angle on W40K, but it's good at what it does.
Also, it has Ultramarines. The most boring, dull, emotionless Space Marines of all. I was actually surprised just how much emotion they show in game.

Enjoyed this game a lot and still enjoying it now. Multiplayer is fun, let's you play as Chaos.
Ultimately how good this game is is determined by your love W40K and your opinion on Ultrasmurfs.. I mean, Ultramarines.
Honestly, they should have used Space Wolves... Or maybe Chaos marines, something less bland than Ultrasmurfs.

Space Wolves! I concur...

Though I would like to see a Rogue Trader (either Original 1st edition, or remake ... which is more likely by a a factor of a million) ... I mean come on. Design your own capital ship ... buy up entire regiments of troopers. Train, outfit them, and explore strange new worlds. Seek out new life and new civi-- ... wait ... sorry ... my bad.

Create your own 5 person command unit from the 10 available classes....

Now there is the opportunity for an awesome rpg-third person shooter.

I enjoyed the game, but frankly I think it would have been nice as you say to play Space Wolves, or take a look at war from the Imperial Guard side of things.

A 'historical' game set during the Macharian Wars. A Crusader guardsman who works their way up to lieutenant. Frankly I would like to see a game where you are the lowest thing on the foodchain, and thus have to rely on squadmates and effective field co-ordination of artillery to actually win the day.

Hell, the training tutorial and first chapter where you learn the mechanics of the game could be entirely dedicated to a short story dedicated to how your character made Sargeant ... get ordered around at the start of the game, and then you quickly learn that you were ordered about for good reason, and then employ the same tricks of the trade after seeing their efficacy when you get a field commission.

...'Sides .... everybody knows that it's the 'Hammer' that does all the work....

 

[Jim 028]

Why come up with your own opinions when you can leach off of others, fair enough.

Got a source for how it was originally written as a parody? Never heard that before.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?pIndex=4&aId=9400003&start=5

Jes Goodwin interview on the short lived podcast, he talks about how it was originally done as a bit of fun as a sci-fi version of the Warhammer fantasy game.