Extra Punctuation: Roleplaying Homosexual in Dragon Age 2
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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word bro, and they tend swing both ways to,C117 said:
but i got hung up at this part
"Then, even having finished the game and moved onto Pokemon White"
Yahtzee plays Pokemon?! o.0 what?
Either they updated or I'm missing that portion...Megacherv said:
Also, anyone else impressed by the number of gay jokes? Pretty creative ones too.
Interesting read though, I'm not sure I'll ever understand homophobes (outside of people who got molested in their youth, that actually makes some sense).
Spoilers, of course.
I wasn't planning on it, but I ended up romancing Anders with my Male Hawke. I was a supporter of Mage rights, for my sister and for justice...and so everything was great. I found his story of life in the Chantry moving and we really clicked. I took him with me everywhere. Sure he was a healer, but I could have easily made Merril a healer instead. When I found out he'd lied to me about the potion, I refused to help him with whatever plot he had going on and we got into a bit of a fight.
He said, "So you dedication to mages ends at the Chantry door!"
I shot back, "That's not fair!"
It was upsetting, but the game went on. I kept trying to defuse the tensions between the templars and the mages. I didn't like Knight-Commander Meredith, and I sided with the Mages...but...I also saw the problems with mage's who were totally insane, and my sister seemed to be okay being in the Circle...so I really believed I might be able to broker a compromise.
Then there was the big confrontation. And I tried to be peacemaker. And then Anders's plan happened. I was devastated that he betrayed me like that...that he destroyed the chances at compromise I'd been working toward, that he condemned everyone to death, including perhaps, my sister. I couldn't salvage this. The rest of my party was horrified. Knight-Commander Meredith seemed even for a moment somewhat sympathetic--but she knew, that even though the Mages weren't to blame, there was no getting out of what was to come. And people withdrew, and I had to make a choice about what to do with Anders. The one who committed murder and betrayed me, our relationship, and my entire belief system. I chose to kill him. He knew that I had to do it.
It was one of the hardest decisions I've made in a video game. And yeah, that meant I didn't have a healer...except that I did, because my sister was a Healer. And she was back in my party for the final end battle. But I was really gutted by it all.
And that is why Bioware and DA2 was so excellent. That and what happens with your Mother...and with my little obsessed Merril...and so many other great RP moments.
And I've just started a second playthrough as a mage...because I can't imagine what the game would be like with Carver rather than Bethany. My experience the first time through had so much to do with having a mage sister I was trying to protect. What happens when that isn't the case? My sister ended up being taken to the Circle and later kidnapped from that circle...so what happens when I have a non-Mage brother?
The game is that compelling to me. And the romances are part and parcel of that.
As for romance options. The way I saw it was so:
1 aggressive male: Anders
1 aggressive female: Isabella
1 non-aggressive male: Fenris (he never hit on me once)
1 non-aggressive female: Merrill (she was a tad flirty, but not really)
It didn't seem to me that Aveline, Varric, or Sebastian were real romance options.
Anyway, I thought it was a really excellent game. And written in such a way that I actually want to do a second playthrough right away rather than later.
I wasn't planning on it, but I ended up romancing Anders with my Male Hawke. I was a supporter of Mage rights, for my sister and for justice...and so everything was great. I found his story of life in the Chantry moving and we really clicked. I took him with me everywhere. Sure he was a healer, but I could have easily made Merril a healer instead. When I found out he'd lied to me about the potion, I refused to help him with whatever plot he had going on and we got into a bit of a fight.
He said, "So you dedication to mages ends at the Chantry door!"
I shot back, "That's not fair!"
It was upsetting, but the game went on. I kept trying to defuse the tensions between the templars and the mages. I didn't like Knight-Commander Meredith, and I sided with the Mages...but...I also saw the problems with mage's who were totally insane, and my sister seemed to be okay being in the Circle...so I really believed I might be able to broker a compromise.
Then there was the big confrontation. And I tried to be peacemaker. And then Anders's plan happened. I was devastated that he betrayed me like that...that he destroyed the chances at compromise I'd been working toward, that he condemned everyone to death, including perhaps, my sister. I couldn't salvage this. The rest of my party was horrified. Knight-Commander Meredith seemed even for a moment somewhat sympathetic--but she knew, that even though the Mages weren't to blame, there was no getting out of what was to come. And people withdrew, and I had to make a choice about what to do with Anders. The one who committed murder and betrayed me, our relationship, and my entire belief system. I chose to kill him. He knew that I had to do it.
It was one of the hardest decisions I've made in a video game. And yeah, that meant I didn't have a healer...except that I did, because my sister was a Healer. And she was back in my party for the final end battle. But I was really gutted by it all.
And that is why Bioware and DA2 was so excellent. That and what happens with your Mother...and with my little obsessed Merril...and so many other great RP moments.
And I've just started a second playthrough as a mage...because I can't imagine what the game would be like with Carver rather than Bethany. My experience the first time through had so much to do with having a mage sister I was trying to protect. What happens when that isn't the case? My sister ended up being taken to the Circle and later kidnapped from that circle...so what happens when I have a non-Mage brother?
The game is that compelling to me. And the romances are part and parcel of that.
As for romance options. The way I saw it was so:
1 aggressive male: Anders
1 aggressive female: Isabella
1 non-aggressive male: Fenris (he never hit on me once)
1 non-aggressive female: Merrill (she was a tad flirty, but not really)
It didn't seem to me that Aveline, Varric, or Sebastian were real romance options.
Anyway, I thought it was a really excellent game. And written in such a way that I actually want to do a second playthrough right away rather than later.
Homophobes are easy to understand; they're the ones that get turned on by gay porn but due to crushing societal and religious messages they channel their self-hatred into super-machismo and anger at a group they secretly lust after.bushwhacker2k said:
This has been studied to death.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772014
Abstract from the study:
"The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35) and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups on the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson & W. A. Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also completed an Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. Perry, 1992). Both groups exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and female homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did not differ in aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies."
Basically, the homophobes or people who "admit negative affect towards homosexual individuals" (IE., "I'm not a homophobe brah I just think two guys kissing is whack!") are actually the ones getting chubbies when they watch gay porn.
I find it hilarious, personally.
A socio-cultural effect from peer pressure, I see.The Gnome King said:
I think that line is hilarious, myself xDThe Gnome King said:
Yahtzee has made plenty of gay jokes but here's he's openly willing to share his fondness for playing gay. Either he's the sort of person involved in homosexuals battle for greater prominence that GLAD-types hate: simultaneously willing to make a disrespectful remark while not expressing revulsion at buggery or he's making a conscious effort, like Eminem, to prove to his detractors (like that chick on the site who plays songs) that hugging Elton John wouldn't make him nervous.
When I was a child I modeled my RPG characters after myself, renaming the Secret of Mana protagonist and Red after me. Nowadays I like to think of themes to accompany my characters personality, that extend naturally from his skillset, and imagine he has a personality going beyond the bounds of the in-game dialogue, cutscenes, combat, etc. Yet our character choices still extend, by however many degrees of separation, from our real world values. For example, in the original ME I made my Shepherd a blond-haired blue-eyed pretty boy with the largest scar available. I liked the idea of him being someone who could've had a more normal and healthy life but had that wrenched away by his Batarian enslavement, resulting in a ruthless battle-forged man. Likewise, Yahtzee chose a gay Hawke in part b/c he wanted to try out being a gay man, if only for our amusement.
What's more important though and Yahtzee missed is the manipulation. What inputs are presented to us shape our minds. Yahtzee imbibed all the flirtatious dialogue to mean, "of course my Hawke wants Anders cock" and ran with it. Yahtzee's analytical capability failed him this time as this inference got past his filters unquestioned. This design choice, to make Hawke so gay, is what bothers so many players. The design team, headed in writing by Gaydar, chose to queer Hawke and his companions up. They're gay for gayness' sake.
For drones who accept whatever fantasy they're offered that's fine. But I choose not to pay for a fantasy I don't want.
When I was a child I modeled my RPG characters after myself, renaming the Secret of Mana protagonist and Red after me. Nowadays I like to think of themes to accompany my characters personality, that extend naturally from his skillset, and imagine he has a personality going beyond the bounds of the in-game dialogue, cutscenes, combat, etc. Yet our character choices still extend, by however many degrees of separation, from our real world values. For example, in the original ME I made my Shepherd a blond-haired blue-eyed pretty boy with the largest scar available. I liked the idea of him being someone who could've had a more normal and healthy life but had that wrenched away by his Batarian enslavement, resulting in a ruthless battle-forged man. Likewise, Yahtzee chose a gay Hawke in part b/c he wanted to try out being a gay man, if only for our amusement.
What's more important though and Yahtzee missed is the manipulation. What inputs are presented to us shape our minds. Yahtzee imbibed all the flirtatious dialogue to mean, "of course my Hawke wants Anders cock" and ran with it. Yahtzee's analytical capability failed him this time as this inference got past his filters unquestioned. This design choice, to make Hawke so gay, is what bothers so many players. The design team, headed in writing by Gaydar, chose to queer Hawke and his companions up. They're gay for gayness' sake.
For drones who accept whatever fantasy they're offered that's fine. But I choose not to pay for a fantasy I don't want.
When Anders started hitting on me, I hit the "No Thanks" option, mostly because I had ideas of what to do with Isabella, but also because he kinda annoyed me. Though I sided with mages pretty much the whole game, his extremism was always irritating. Hell, Fenrir hated my guts because of being a mage and liking mages, but he was still tolerable.
Long story short, I didn't get into it with Anders because he annoyed me. And because I had eyes on a Dirty Pirate Hooker (I hope I can say that, because its entirely accurate). Therefore, I am a straight male who makes terrible decisions.
Also, I think there's only 2 male and 2 female. If you try to hit on Aveline, it goes right over her head every time.
Long story short, I didn't get into it with Anders because he annoyed me. And because I had eyes on a Dirty Pirate Hooker (I hope I can say that, because its entirely accurate). Therefore, I am a straight male who makes terrible decisions.
Also, I think there's only 2 male and 2 female. If you try to hit on Aveline, it goes right over her head every time.
1) How was Hawke "made gay" - he was given ample opportunity to turn down Anders and to shack up with two females and a weird glowing elf if he so choose.Arren Kae said:
2) It is of course your choice to not pay for fantasy you don't want; but considering that Bioware's own statistics shows that the gay/bi romance options are hugely popular in their games, I don't think they'll be going away any time soon.
Are you also one of those people who believe that all characters should cater to a white male heterosexual audience as well, and that gays or other minorities should just accept the fact that they may be having to "pay for fantasy they don't want" if they want to play games at all?
I think that inferring that Hawke was "made gay" by offering him a choice to be so infers more about your own personality type than it does about Yhatzee or Bioware or... yeah.
The straight men I know who are secure in their own sexuality had absolutely no issue with a "gay option" being included in DA2, FWIW. They either explored it or ignored it as they choose. Considering it never comes up in the game if you turn down Anders and enter into a relationship with one of the women, I'm not sure how any but the most easily-offended could be... well, offended by it.
Luthir Fontaine said:
Yeah I guess it would.So when one of them knocks the shit out of you for doing that are you going to take them to court for a hate crime?
Sadly, I didn't have the balls to roleplay the other team. I'm actually quite ashamed of myself for that, especially because Merill's character was inadequately explored and Anders' was so much more complete.
Tears.
Tears.
The problem I have with gay romances in Bioware games (specifically ME2) is that there was no one who I could just be nice to. I loved Garrus like a brother, but I couldn't help but feel that he was giving me "I wasn't programmed to have sex with you, so back off" vibes. Tali was the only one I could see myself with, but that didn't mean that I wasn't going to keep on talking to everyone else.
I guess I'm trying to say that the relationships are sort of forced. Just because you're gay doesn't mean you'll fall in love with the protagonist, no matter how nice he is to you.
I guess I'm trying to say that the relationships are sort of forced. Just because you're gay doesn't mean you'll fall in love with the protagonist, no matter how nice he is to you.
Would you feel differently if it were a book or movie? Whether because of age, location or expectation, fictional romances are all some people have.GoodApprentice said:
I probably wouldn't do the gay romance in-game but that is only because I like to imagine my avatar as a person just like me (excluding the looks) but in a different world. I like to discover how someone with my personality would behave in fictional worlds. I may deviate from that for curiosities sake once in a while but I like when my characters behave like I would if dropped into that world.
It shows some steps for progress in gamings view of gay people that having your character be gay is at least an option.
Also, doing the gay romance is just one of several options in game and it won't be forced on you so it doesn't even seem like something worth complaining about.
It shows some steps for progress in gamings view of gay people that having your character be gay is at least an option.
Also, doing the gay romance is just one of several options in game and it won't be forced on you so it doesn't even seem like something worth complaining about.
