Extra Punctuation: Weapon-Crafting That Works
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
Well, you can name all of your stuff in The Elder Scrolls series. There's even a little bit of customization in the enchantment system. Actually, from what little I've heard, Skyrim might actually include something akin to what Yahtzee was describing in its new weapon crafting system.JeppeH said:
Fable 3 is another good example. Your hero weapons customize themselves each time you upgrade the appropriate skill set based upon your actions. If you kill a lot of innocent people with your sword it's blade will drip with blood. Each weapon had four different aspects that could be mixed and matched, the blade, the hilt, the color and the aura I think. Of course you couldn't directly decide which upgrade you got, but the basic principle is there.
You could even take another page from the Fable book and add design cards all over the world that you can use to put on your weapons, or make little side quests to procure special materials in order to make better weapons. I'm sure we'll start seeing stuff like this pretty soon.
I don't think that weapon crafting needs to go any further than the two extremes Yahtzee gives, Dead Rising 2 where everything is extremely specific, and Fallout/Dead Island (haven't played) where it comes down to pressure cooker + steam gauge assembly + fission battery + wooden crutch = gun, or in other words, pockets full of junk.
He mentions needing to get the physics right, and of course there's always the need to make sure what you're holding near your face for 90% of the game doesn't look like an ass with a "breeze block" attached to it. Yes there's room for the entire system to grow, but how much of your resources you need to divert to getting the system working X way is an experiment that I can understand major studios shying away from. It's a risk in terms of both the mechanics and aesthetics of the game and better left to the indies to pioneer rather that have some 3A studio bumble out a crappy game which allows for life-like rat flail simulation.
He mentions needing to get the physics right, and of course there's always the need to make sure what you're holding near your face for 90% of the game doesn't look like an ass with a "breeze block" attached to it. Yes there's room for the entire system to grow, but how much of your resources you need to divert to getting the system working X way is an experiment that I can understand major studios shying away from. It's a risk in terms of both the mechanics and aesthetics of the game and better left to the indies to pioneer rather that have some 3A studio bumble out a crappy game which allows for life-like rat flail simulation.
You know, this is peculiar, because I got done having a discussion with this same exact topic manner with my one friend.Pandora92 said:
We talked about it and I suggested that, as you said, you should find parts of guns then assemble them or swap them out. It would still work and all, but as a market for parts instead of weapons. Hell, the guns could still be sold, kind of like 'stock' weapons tat could still be customized still, y'know?
I any case, I completely agree with you that this system could definately pass for what Yahtzee was refering to. ^^
Something good? I sincerely hope that Nazis, orcs, aliens, robots and zombies aren't all we can come up with anymore.Yahtzee said:
I mean, Prince of Persia: Sands of Time had sand zombies (made of sand and they're all stretched out soitcountsshutup). Guilty Gear's idea of basically humanoid shapes(Gears) that can sprout wings/huge spikes/tails/body weapons/pets or even mech-like robotic parts... that was a brilliant idea.
Right, anyway, the topic... realism gets a little in the way of fun toys like this, but I think weight as an effective countermeasure to just slapping on hundreds of effects is going to work pretty nicely. If you don't know what Yahtzee means about James-with-the-Great-Knife, it's basically a blunt, rusted blade that is as tall as a man and twice as heavy. He has to drag it everywhere and the basic movements are him struggling to keep it up. The overhead swing, of course, is immensely deadly but immensely slow and it seems to take a lot of effort to do.
Now one could imagine there would be situations where you'd LIKE a crushing weapon like that, especially if you were simultaneously building the character that would wield it. Hey, come to think of it, is that a good idea or not? RPG elements combined with "realistic" weapon-building?
Actually I was also thinking that when a game could comfortably fit in a category that is actually just "Junk", that there is a big damn problem with the game. The only exception I can think of is Parasite Eve, where you bring items actually called Junk back to one guy so he can put together a totally unique and powerful gun (just don't choose the wrong dialogue options when he's done, save first!!).
At the same time, you're holding on to the same gun throughout the entire game, and swapping what WAS your old gun into something better when you find it, improving the base gun model as well as carrying over your chosen abilities (like a shotgun spread, rapid-fire, heat, poison, etc.). That worked pretty well, and later on you even get to name it. Oh god I love my special gun I built... haaah... way more satisfying than randomly upgrading everything from my gun to my boots to my grappling hook in any Ratchet and Clank game.
At the same time, you're holding on to the same gun throughout the entire game, and swapping what WAS your old gun into something better when you find it, improving the base gun model as well as carrying over your chosen abilities (like a shotgun spread, rapid-fire, heat, poison, etc.). That worked pretty well, and later on you even get to name it. Oh god I love my special gun I built... haaah... way more satisfying than randomly upgrading everything from my gun to my boots to my grappling hook in any Ratchet and Clank game.
Is that what Ripley did in Aliens?Major_Tom said:
Also, I really like the term wikipedia uses for "breeze blocks"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_masonry_unit
I think it would work well for purely improv melee weapons (ie. there's 30 zombies about to swarm on my position, I'm out of bullets, and all I have is these three knives and this lampshade. Hmmm...), but anything else more... functional probably wouldn't work. The weapons crafting system in Fallout 3 I felt to be a little lacklustre in terms of variety, but what you could build was much more imaginative and complex than can be implemented using a 3D grid system. Things like the Rock-it Launcher or a bottlecap mine aren't exactly things you can produce trying to tape several things together in a 3D grid. Hell, the Shishkebab is a melee weapon, and though making a sword out of a lawnmower blade in a grid would be feasible, but even then I think it would be hard to tape a functional flame thrower to it.
Blueprint-based, highly specific weapons have their place, I think.
Blueprint-based, highly specific weapons have their place, I think.
I had an idea to add to this brilliantly conceived system: Why not introduce progression to the act of crafting as well? Specifically, not only would the player get better components for the weapons themselves throughout the game, but he would also be able to acquire new skills and equipment to improve the the quality and expand the variety of the weapons he is able to produce?
Early in the game, the player would start out with a spartan crafting space with little more than duct tape, zip ties, wire, glue, etc. at his disposal. He would also have very limited knowledge with which to forge his implements of destruction. The resulting weapons would be low quality, break easily and not be very effective against enemies. The quality of these weapons could be significantly improved through trial and error for novice players, or through prior knowledge and common sense drawn from real life for more advanced players, with a corresponding higher level of difficulty which would also allow quicker progression to counter the greater challenge and danger.
At the beginning of the game when the player is creating and loading out his character, he would be able to choose a skill that he would already have experience with, in the guise of his occupation prior to the zombie apocalypse. Over the course of the game, he would collect some form of experience points to unlock and level additional skills, such as carpentry, machining, demolition, etc. that would help him craft better weapons. I suppose there would be other skills such as medical that would help in other areas, but that would be outside the scope of the weapon crafting (or maybe not: nitroglycerin syringe gun sounds like it would make for some interesting headshots, not to mention the possibilities presented by defibrillators...).
The player would also collect some form of convertible currency to purchase tools and equipment for his ever-expanding death shop. The weapons made with bare-bones tape n' ties would not have the ability to swap out parts to upgrade or repair, but imagine if you had a milling machine and could cut screw thread or expand a breech and barrel to accept the oversized military ammo you found somewhere on the map. You could also maybe craft extra weapons to sell to NPC's or other players to make more scratch so you can afford that sweet laser cutter a little sooner. Actually now that I think about it, maybe the cash for tools is a bad idea that would suck some of the fun out of the game. Perhaps the necessary tools and equipment are already in the crafting room from the beginning and you just have to learn how to use them. Probably include a skill check so that if you tried to use a table saw without carpentry skill, there would be a 50/50 chance of mangling and ruining the piece of wood you're cutting or sending it flying across the room in hilarious fashion.
One thing is for sure, this hypothetical system would be a daunting task for even a seasoned developer. The delicate trapeze act of balancing such a complex system could easily be torpedoed by a physics implementation that is anything less than flawless. But this is not impossible, and I hope to see something this deep and organic in the future.
Fake Edit: Also, consumables such as tape and nails should be infinite, we don't need to add tedious resource collection to dull the proceedings. Oh, and don't forget to build a great game around this awesome editor, lest we end up with another goddamn Spore, Nuts n' Bolts, or *shudder* APB.
Early in the game, the player would start out with a spartan crafting space with little more than duct tape, zip ties, wire, glue, etc. at his disposal. He would also have very limited knowledge with which to forge his implements of destruction. The resulting weapons would be low quality, break easily and not be very effective against enemies. The quality of these weapons could be significantly improved through trial and error for novice players, or through prior knowledge and common sense drawn from real life for more advanced players, with a corresponding higher level of difficulty which would also allow quicker progression to counter the greater challenge and danger.
At the beginning of the game when the player is creating and loading out his character, he would be able to choose a skill that he would already have experience with, in the guise of his occupation prior to the zombie apocalypse. Over the course of the game, he would collect some form of experience points to unlock and level additional skills, such as carpentry, machining, demolition, etc. that would help him craft better weapons. I suppose there would be other skills such as medical that would help in other areas, but that would be outside the scope of the weapon crafting (or maybe not: nitroglycerin syringe gun sounds like it would make for some interesting headshots, not to mention the possibilities presented by defibrillators...).
The player would also collect some form of convertible currency to purchase tools and equipment for his ever-expanding death shop. The weapons made with bare-bones tape n' ties would not have the ability to swap out parts to upgrade or repair, but imagine if you had a milling machine and could cut screw thread or expand a breech and barrel to accept the oversized military ammo you found somewhere on the map. You could also maybe craft extra weapons to sell to NPC's or other players to make more scratch so you can afford that sweet laser cutter a little sooner. Actually now that I think about it, maybe the cash for tools is a bad idea that would suck some of the fun out of the game. Perhaps the necessary tools and equipment are already in the crafting room from the beginning and you just have to learn how to use them. Probably include a skill check so that if you tried to use a table saw without carpentry skill, there would be a 50/50 chance of mangling and ruining the piece of wood you're cutting or sending it flying across the room in hilarious fashion.
One thing is for sure, this hypothetical system would be a daunting task for even a seasoned developer. The delicate trapeze act of balancing such a complex system could easily be torpedoed by a physics implementation that is anything less than flawless. But this is not impossible, and I hope to see something this deep and organic in the future.
Fake Edit: Also, consumables such as tape and nails should be infinite, we don't need to add tedious resource collection to dull the proceedings. Oh, and don't forget to build a great game around this awesome editor, lest we end up with another goddamn Spore, Nuts n' Bolts, or *shudder* APB.
At least in the case of the Dead Rising games, the guns (with a couple exceptions) are not hilariously overpowered, in fact some of them are borderline useless. Just as importantly, the melee weapons, especially the combo weapons in DR2, are highly effective for the most part, and have a great visceral feel when you introduce the business end to zombie flesh. This is mostly an issue of game balance, as well as weapon feel being one of the hardest things to get right in an action game. See the Extra Credits episode on pacing.DanDeFool said:
My mind went right to taping a butcher's knife to the side of a baseball bat to make a badass axe. Hell, I saw a hammer earlier today and wanted to see if I could strap a battery to it and Thor that ***** up.
Someone tell me if that works.
Someone tell me if that works.
There was an old game called: "Robot Arena 2: Design and Destroy" (essentially a BattleBots game) that had this kind of system. All the weapons were physics-based, so if you used a more powerful motor you could swing your weapon faster and hit harder. You could stack two motors on top of each other to gain extra speed, but that made the recoil so great that you could easily set yourself spinning. You could also do cool tricks like putting a swinging weapon on top of your bot, so that if you got flipped over you could use it to push yourself upright. And, since this was a BattleBots game, you could break off bits of the other guy's robot to disable it. Even if your weapons were broken off, you could still ram the other guy and lure him into hazards.
The game was tricky to get the hang of, but it was a lot of fun to design new weapons.
The game was tricky to get the hang of, but it was a lot of fun to design new weapons.
Two words: Ammo.DanDeFool said:
Shush you. I have fond memories of the early AC games... and losing the first 6 battles or whatever for the free upgrades and such. Clunky controls be damned, that was a fun fun game.
As for the general topic, sign me up. Just to take the Dead Rising 2 system (cuz I haven't played dead island) it seems easy enough to do exactly what you want. Make several stick-like object count as handles and several blade type object attachable, and you've got 101 ways to make a naginata. The attack animations remain the same, and the game already has all the artwork for the individual pieces.
MAKE IT SO, #1
I really, really like this idea. Gradually build yourself an epic weapon over the course of the game. Have both positive and negative attributes attached to various ways of upgrading it so you end up with an amazingly customised item that exactly fits your play style and nobody else's.JeppeH said:
This... this is bloody brilliant. Literally.
Pet peeve about the "vendor trash" bit, though: if it's useful in some way other than being sold, it's not vendor trash --- it's just not something your particular character, or you, are interested in at the moment.
Now, THAT is something actually tackled successfully in Fallout 3/New Vegas mods, where you can actually build a portable scrapper and render such things as, say, tin cans or forks, into scrap metal, which you can then fashion into "machined parts" if you have enough skill. Milk bottles, plates and such become "scrap ceramics" and then "ceramic plate", scrap electronics or toasters can be fashioned into "electronic parts", and so on.
These in turn are applicable to repairing a wide range of related items. And that's one mod. So even trash can become a treasure in modern gaming.
Pet peeve about the "vendor trash" bit, though: if it's useful in some way other than being sold, it's not vendor trash --- it's just not something your particular character, or you, are interested in at the moment.
Now, THAT is something actually tackled successfully in Fallout 3/New Vegas mods, where you can actually build a portable scrapper and render such things as, say, tin cans or forks, into scrap metal, which you can then fashion into "machined parts" if you have enough skill. Milk bottles, plates and such become "scrap ceramics" and then "ceramic plate", scrap electronics or toasters can be fashioned into "electronic parts", and so on.
These in turn are applicable to repairing a wide range of related items. And that's one mod. So even trash can become a treasure in modern gaming.
idea is great but it would probably be a major pain in the ass for the programmer to make it all interactive. i dont see the small companies making it, maybe giants like bethesda or blizzard may invest into something like that, because they dont seem to be afraid with experimenting with cool stuff.
still i dont see it breaking in any forseeable future. then what do i know, even bill games though 512kb of ram is enough for everyone.
still i dont see it breaking in any forseeable future. then what do i know, even bill games though 512kb of ram is enough for everyone.
I'm surprised he didn't mention Minecraft with its huge list of crafting and its "collect everything-ness", but i suppose he wanted to do the whole free build thing.
i see a huge pitfall with his idea though, and that is player cheese. a player will find as many ways to cheese a system as possible.
"one enemy is weak to slash and the other blunt? check out my hammer sword that is so big i can crush/slash every enemy around me." one example.
another would be part location versus part effect, like will putting the hammer part on the back of the sword still deal crushing? if so, you might as well be swinging a Swiss army knife around. if not you either have to limit part location, or vary swing controls. it could be very technical to keep it realistic, or kept so controlled that people would be turned off.
i see a huge pitfall with his idea though, and that is player cheese. a player will find as many ways to cheese a system as possible.
"one enemy is weak to slash and the other blunt? check out my hammer sword that is so big i can crush/slash every enemy around me." one example.
another would be part location versus part effect, like will putting the hammer part on the back of the sword still deal crushing? if so, you might as well be swinging a Swiss army knife around. if not you either have to limit part location, or vary swing controls. it could be very technical to keep it realistic, or kept so controlled that people would be turned off.
This would be amazing, but I don't really see it happening. I can keep on hoping at least... *crosses fingers*