Extra Punctuation: What is Mature Anyway?
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
Ha ha ha. Well you can't please everyone. (By more mature, I meant not trying to only use poop, piss, and awkward pop-culture references as a means to entertain. Oh, boobs too.)Dfskelleton said:
Also, as for your question about who thought DNF would be realistic, I can tell you it was not me, but I was hopeful that it wouldn't be as bad as it turned out to be.
Oh, and I too well vote for the Fuck it system.
I Googled pictures of cats and puppies and that seemed to help, but it wasn't a cure.Gman6789 said:
sorry about the double post, I forgot I was adding to something and I thought I hit Escape soon enough
Well put, better than most or all of my attempts.Marik Bentusi said:
Are you kidding? Japan is way more stringent about that, you can't buy stuff with uncensored genitals unless it's a medical book and you're a doctor, and even then you have to know where to look. However this started during the Victorian era, which is when they first made contact with the west, and the first time they made significant contact with anyone in I think 700 years-- for some reason they really seized on certain values, even though Christianity didn't make inroads as much as in some other Asian/west Pacific areas, particularly Korea.Marik Bentusi said:
I can kind of see where you're coming from with Cartoon Network, but Looney Tunes? I liked it when I was a kid before I knew it was old/classic and I could watch a lot of those shows now and still laugh.Marik Bentusi said:
Usually the more 'mature themes' a game is supposed to have the more immature it is. Looking at it logically a mature game would contain themes and deal with subjects that only people past a certain age and or level of maturity have a grasp of. RPGs in particular have hit the mark here occasionally and moral ambiguity and shades of grey seem to be very in vogue at the moment. The Witcher and the Witcher 2 did this pretty well in my opinion, although they were helped by the excellent pre-existing source material and the fact that CD Projekt Red is a small European studio.
Take for example the Scioa'tel, they are ultimately terrorists, but terrorist with a bloody strong case. The problem is that Geralt is pretty much the only person in the world who is uniquely positioned to see, understand and sympathise with both sides of the struggle. To me this raises the question of how much is our view of issues such as, oh I don't know, the war on terror influenced, by our limited perspective and perception of events. Of course Geralt himself is a torn person and outsider struggling to understand his role in society. Not just in terms of the human/non-human struggle but also the fact that his traditional role and employment as a monster slayer is becoming increasingly redundant.
Take for example the Scioa'tel, they are ultimately terrorists, but terrorist with a bloody strong case. The problem is that Geralt is pretty much the only person in the world who is uniquely positioned to see, understand and sympathise with both sides of the struggle. To me this raises the question of how much is our view of issues such as, oh I don't know, the war on terror influenced, by our limited perspective and perception of events. Of course Geralt himself is a torn person and outsider struggling to understand his role in society. Not just in terms of the human/non-human struggle but also the fact that his traditional role and employment as a monster slayer is becoming increasingly redundant.
We live in an interresting world, where Violence is seen as an lesser Evil compared to Sex. Altho it always strikes me, how sumthing as unnatural as Murder and violence is presented eaven to kids and younger Audience without any second thoughts, sex and erotika, one of our natural and most primal instincts, earns an 18+ Rating outright (By thing, i rather mean tastefull stuff, not the ones ya see on DevArt and Internet ;3). Only cultural reason behind this, as far as i can see, is the influence of Religion on the Society, as well as the Society itself. The guys that currently run the whole media think its their duty to protect the minds of the innocent children, hoping to prevent em turning into lustfull, sexcrazed deviants - while on other hand letting the violence slide rather unnoticed (not that it didnt caused any fuss, but yeah).
The Problem with games in general is that they are viewed as children toys, and having bewbs in there means that children gonna see em - doesnt matter if the game says 18+. People rather go on crusade against the Game Companies before they controll what they kids are playing.
Does Violence with consequences and normal view of Human sexuality make game moar Mature? Yes and No. Eaven if the games turn over towards mature audience and abandon the kiddies, what is the thing we ask from games? We want sum Fun, escapism. If the game comes with an Lesson to teach, to speak about certain thematic - Its sumthing most people wish, but it would only turn the Game Media into Movies or Litterature and possibly move away from the Fun Factor. So rather then asking ourselves how to move up and finaly become Art, we should rather ask ourselves, how to finaly get the whole Fuss about "Corrupting small children" off our back :3 Maybe then, we can have xray cawks to view in Mortal Combat
The Problem with games in general is that they are viewed as children toys, and having bewbs in there means that children gonna see em - doesnt matter if the game says 18+. People rather go on crusade against the Game Companies before they controll what they kids are playing.
Does Violence with consequences and normal view of Human sexuality make game moar Mature? Yes and No. Eaven if the games turn over towards mature audience and abandon the kiddies, what is the thing we ask from games? We want sum Fun, escapism. If the game comes with an Lesson to teach, to speak about certain thematic - Its sumthing most people wish, but it would only turn the Game Media into Movies or Litterature and possibly move away from the Fun Factor. So rather then asking ourselves how to move up and finaly become Art, we should rather ask ourselves, how to finaly get the whole Fuss about "Corrupting small children" off our back :3 Maybe then, we can have xray cawks to view in Mortal Combat
I have yet to see a game rated M that doesn't deserve an M rating. Whether it is for the constant use of blood and gore (I'll admit I would flinch at that when I was kid, but now that I'm older and I've lost my soul, I don't care) or swear words (Yes, kids don't need video games to learn new words but come on, let's not infuriate dumb parents more than necessary) or nudity.
However, I'll admit I would expect M rated games to be handled more, well, maturely. But that's just my own wish. It's like comparing American Pie with Schindler's List; both wouldn't be apt for kids but one of them is about retarded asswipes being douches and the other one is more dramatic and serious.
I'll agree with the fact that if a game is willing to add nudity into a game, then do it correctly and all the way. Don't shy away as if you were the local perv hiding inside a locker in the girls' dressing room. If you're gonna use gore, show real gore. Don't just show mild gore scenes or, like MK did, cartoony depictions of gore that do not follow some of the game's same standards.
A couple of examples come to mind:
-Gore in games: Like Yahtzee said, if you're using gore and going as far as to add an X ray view where you can bones being shattered in great detail and eyeballs being pierces, then why not who wieners being cut in half? I mean, since you already pushed the envelope that back, why back away then?
-Nudity in games: I recall playing God of War and watching half naked whores wiggle in anticipation as Kratos approached them. Now, I'm not being a perv, but why are whores always shown from the breasts up? I know they're naked, I know their purpose, so why not show the rest? That just makes it look wrong. Like if the game is saying "Hey, check out a pseudo sex scene. But it's not exactly that! It's just hinting at it. So if your parents ask, it could be anything!". Another example would be Dragon Age: Origins and the camp scene. I was seriously expecting to see naked people having sex, not people wearing ridiculous underwear and flashing scenes of giving each other what looked like back massages. Again, it's not like I want porn in my games. But you have this realistic games where you must be wise during battle, where each set of armor counts, where your decisions change lives and when the sex scene comes up, it doesn't seem/feel real.
I know that games are just avoiding another Hot Coffee scandal. And I know that thanks to that dreadful AO rating, games will do anything to avoid falling into that category unless they want to go bankrupt. And I hate that games will never be able to cross that boundary set up by people who are not even gamers. M rated games are, by nature, aimed towards adults. If a kid plays GoW and sees something he cannot unsee, it's ultimately not his fault. The kid was curious and tested his luck. It all goes down to the parent; it's their fault for not supervising their child.
I hate the fact that games are seen as villains. A movie like, let's say, Terminator 1 has a very explicit sex scene where you can see a lot of things going on. That's usually cut off the TV adaptations but it's there. So is it considered porn? No, because it's just like a 2 minute scene. But if it was a video game, you bet it would get an AO rating.
But again, sadly, we won't be able to break away from that because you'll always have the dumb parents asking...
Also, I enjoyed the Catcher in the Rye reference.
However, I'll admit I would expect M rated games to be handled more, well, maturely. But that's just my own wish. It's like comparing American Pie with Schindler's List; both wouldn't be apt for kids but one of them is about retarded asswipes being douches and the other one is more dramatic and serious.
I'll agree with the fact that if a game is willing to add nudity into a game, then do it correctly and all the way. Don't shy away as if you were the local perv hiding inside a locker in the girls' dressing room. If you're gonna use gore, show real gore. Don't just show mild gore scenes or, like MK did, cartoony depictions of gore that do not follow some of the game's same standards.
A couple of examples come to mind:
-Gore in games: Like Yahtzee said, if you're using gore and going as far as to add an X ray view where you can bones being shattered in great detail and eyeballs being pierces, then why not who wieners being cut in half? I mean, since you already pushed the envelope that back, why back away then?
-Nudity in games: I recall playing God of War and watching half naked whores wiggle in anticipation as Kratos approached them. Now, I'm not being a perv, but why are whores always shown from the breasts up? I know they're naked, I know their purpose, so why not show the rest? That just makes it look wrong. Like if the game is saying "Hey, check out a pseudo sex scene. But it's not exactly that! It's just hinting at it. So if your parents ask, it could be anything!". Another example would be Dragon Age: Origins and the camp scene. I was seriously expecting to see naked people having sex, not people wearing ridiculous underwear and flashing scenes of giving each other what looked like back massages. Again, it's not like I want porn in my games. But you have this realistic games where you must be wise during battle, where each set of armor counts, where your decisions change lives and when the sex scene comes up, it doesn't seem/feel real.
I know that games are just avoiding another Hot Coffee scandal. And I know that thanks to that dreadful AO rating, games will do anything to avoid falling into that category unless they want to go bankrupt. And I hate that games will never be able to cross that boundary set up by people who are not even gamers. M rated games are, by nature, aimed towards adults. If a kid plays GoW and sees something he cannot unsee, it's ultimately not his fault. The kid was curious and tested his luck. It all goes down to the parent; it's their fault for not supervising their child.
I hate the fact that games are seen as villains. A movie like, let's say, Terminator 1 has a very explicit sex scene where you can see a lot of things going on. That's usually cut off the TV adaptations but it's there. So is it considered porn? No, because it's just like a 2 minute scene. But if it was a video game, you bet it would get an AO rating.
But again, sadly, we won't be able to break away from that because you'll always have the dumb parents asking...
Also, I enjoyed the Catcher in the Rye reference.
Be happy, that you don't live in Germany!
Because we have an "institution", that can ban any media (books, games, films, ...) when they are to gory, sexual, hateful, ... many game companies change the game just for "us"!
i.e. the classic Command&Conquer game was changed that there are no humans but robots fighting and they had blue "blood" instead of red. Just because they were afraid it would be banned or only got a "18" rating and so couldn't be sold that much! They do this with movies too; my favorite is still "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" where they cut out the part, where the priest grabs into a mans chest and takes out the heart! Really great! So you don't understand what's going on in the end, when they are hanging at the bridge and they scream "Beware Indy, he wants your heart!" ...
That's the reason I always get video games/movies that are like to be censored from i.e. amazon.co.uk! Also they are cheaper there!
Because we have an "institution", that can ban any media (books, games, films, ...) when they are to gory, sexual, hateful, ... many game companies change the game just for "us"!
i.e. the classic Command&Conquer game was changed that there are no humans but robots fighting and they had blue "blood" instead of red. Just because they were afraid it would be banned or only got a "18" rating and so couldn't be sold that much! They do this with movies too; my favorite is still "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" where they cut out the part, where the priest grabs into a mans chest and takes out the heart! Really great! So you don't understand what's going on in the end, when they are hanging at the bridge and they scream "Beware Indy, he wants your heart!" ...
That's the reason I always get video games/movies that are like to be censored from i.e. amazon.co.uk! Also they are cheaper there!
books are never rated really, Maybe make it a chore to access the gore. And the kiddies will give up caring.
Anyway this is old hat, yes well done rating systems never work and the governments are shallow minded and out of touch as anyone can become a political person, as it's opinion. And no one will ever agree. no one wants to be ruled by another's morales. ETc fecking etc.
Anyway this is old hat, yes well done rating systems never work and the governments are shallow minded and out of touch as anyone can become a political person, as it's opinion. And no one will ever agree. no one wants to be ruled by another's morales. ETc fecking etc.
The fucking topless scenes in Heavy Rain bugged the crap out of me for precisely these reasons. Making a big deal out of edgy things (like that ridiculous dream sequence that's clearly just there for the sex-power fantasy) is by it's nature not edgy or mature, because edgy and mature people DON'T MAKE a big deal out of those things. That's what makes them mature. The violent men that scare us are the ones who do violence to others and don't think very much of it.
I remember, for example, how when I lost my virginity at 17 there was a good deal of gossip about it amongst my friends. 2 or 3 years later (like six months) a couple of those same friends almost walked in one my girlfriend and I in my dorm room. That time we had a chuckle and a couple high fives (I'm kind of a bro, I know), and that was it.
It's not that I or we have diminished sex drives compared to when we were teenagers, but once you see boobs in real life the whole idea becomes way less fascinating. It's not that it's less important, but the fact that we're adults and it's no longer a forbidden, "holy shit" thing is what makes us adult about sex. Heavy Rain shoves it in your face, "LOOK! FUCKING TITTIES!" If you're not 14, you're like, "Oh jeez, how crazy. Nipples. What a novel idea."
So yeah, I agree with Yahtzee. Rather than, "OMG THE PROTAGONIST HAD SEXXXXX," it's much more mature to say, "The protagonist wakes up in bed next to a naked women he barely remembers, and [blah story blah].
I remember, for example, how when I lost my virginity at 17 there was a good deal of gossip about it amongst my friends. 2 or 3 years later (like six months) a couple of those same friends almost walked in one my girlfriend and I in my dorm room. That time we had a chuckle and a couple high fives (I'm kind of a bro, I know), and that was it.
It's not that I or we have diminished sex drives compared to when we were teenagers, but once you see boobs in real life the whole idea becomes way less fascinating. It's not that it's less important, but the fact that we're adults and it's no longer a forbidden, "holy shit" thing is what makes us adult about sex. Heavy Rain shoves it in your face, "LOOK! FUCKING TITTIES!" If you're not 14, you're like, "Oh jeez, how crazy. Nipples. What a novel idea."
So yeah, I agree with Yahtzee. Rather than, "OMG THE PROTAGONIST HAD SEXXXXX," it's much more mature to say, "The protagonist wakes up in bed next to a naked women he barely remembers, and [blah story blah].
I'm going to go with MovieBob on this one with respect that the truth behind those missing penises is simpler than you proposed. I doubt they were removed or abstained from because the artist who rendered them wasn't comfortable making a penis. It's more likely that it was cheaper not to include them.
So Practicality > Immaturity.
So Practicality > Immaturity.
The point I would like to make is that the age categories used by ratings boards are typically the minimum level of maturity they expect the player to have in order to respond to the content in a reasonable manner. I do not believe that the level of maturity with which the game itself treats its own content is generally addressed, though it might be said that a certain level of maturity on the part of the game could "make up" for the immaturity of the player by providing an example of how you are expected to respond. Sex and violence that are presented without any regard to the consequences might seem perfectly okay to someone who is not mature enough to know otherwise, while giving some indication of consequence or how a mature person would respond might lead them to more acceptable conclusions. This might also shed some light on the difference between sex and violence, since many of the possible consequences of violence (death, injury, retaliation, police pursuit and incarceration) are more obvious and/or immediate than the possible consequences of sex (disease and pregnancy). Along with the fact that sex is just more pleasant than violence, this means that it is easier to show violence in a more balanced way than it is for sex.
Please keep in mind that this entire argument is based on opinion as I try to view the issue from the position of those who actually assign these ratings.
Please keep in mind that this entire argument is based on opinion as I try to view the issue from the position of those who actually assign these ratings.
I don't remember if this was a bizarre dream I had or if I just can't recall where I read it but I recall reading something about game age restrictions being replaced with reasons why it would be considered mature or okay for teenagers. I get that reasons are already there, but whether those would cause something to be bad for someone of a certain age differs from opinion to opinion.
And it'd work for films, too. Fight Club would have Holden Caulfield. Death Wish would have Edmond Dantes.
This is a little nitpick but, have you actually read The Count of Monte Cristo?
I completely agree with your thoughts re: how the idea of "maturity" has been diluted by the games industry and the inefficiencies of the rating system, but to be honest your alternative isn't much better. No offense.
This is a little nitpick but, have you actually read The Count of Monte Cristo?
I completely agree with your thoughts re: how the idea of "maturity" has been diluted by the games industry and the inefficiencies of the rating system, but to be honest your alternative isn't much better. No offense.
