Extra Punctuation: What Is the Matter with You People?

[Zeroththeking]

Speaking as the one who created the comment that Yahtzee quoted (in the first page) he completely missed the point of what I meant. And due to this, the proof that he had towards his case with my quote dies along with the rest of his very uncharacteristic post. I said...
"Or they could have zoomed in on Makarov caging up a bunch of children "HoloCaust style" And using chemicals on them first. It would have made an ironic statement and it would have been quite the upgrade, since it wouldn't have been instant incineration, but slow torture."

In response to:
"The shocking moment is that a kid dies? This is probably going to reflect poorly on me, but I fail to see how a kid dying on camera is a bigger deal than a nuke going off in the middle of a populated city. How many kids died in the nuke blast in Call of Duty 4? Hell, how many kids were in Paris when it got blown up in Battlefield 3? Activision should have listened to Yahtzee and made the shocking moment a puppy being stomped to death by a holocaust denier."

As much as I like Yahtzee, he didn't understand (apparently) that I was being sarcastic that the "Shock Factor" that Modern Warfare 3 should have been upgraded, since Modern Warfare 2's mission "No Russian" was a level created for the negative press. Now I agree that it was a part of the story, the company didn't have to allow you to kill the civilians. In the American version of the game, you could kill as many as you desired (And I did it... I killed nearly all of them). So I merely suggested an "Upgrade" as far as controversy goes. So unfortunately, Yahtzee's argument not only died with the "child fucking equals murder" concept, but with his own quote.

 

[Yopaz]

Well would you look at that. An undeniable case against the modders and (some) users of Skyrim and put together very, very well to come to a logical conclusion. Outstanding work Yahtzee. I look forward to seeing more Extra Punctuation like this. This is the material that I really like to see.

No it's not. There is no case against the modders because they're not doing anything wrong. What someone does in their game (A fictional setting where no one real is hurt) is their business. Why do you care? Making the setting more consistent by making everyone susceptible to the same threats as anyone else doesn't make the modders freaks.

Can you please take your worthless argument somewhere else? I will not discuss this matter because it is obvious you have grounded yourself permanently on one side of it. All I will say is that I never dismissed the modders (or users) as "bad people". I will agree to disagree and leave it at that.

EDIT: Fixed.

Or maybe because you have no case. I suppose that would make it hard to argue.

I just think that the desire to kill them for no other reason than "They annoy me" is a sign of a mind that's messed up.

I've killed adults for less in GTA. I don't see how killing kids in a game is more "messed up" than killing an adult. They're both equally fake, and it's equally harmless killing them.

So explain the desire to kill children without using the word realism or immersion since my posts have covered that.

Because why not? Because a virtual child's "Life" has the same value as a virtual adult's "life" because it makes no sense for one group to be immune to the rules of the game 'just because'. And for all the other reasons listed by others above. Because Children shouldn't be dragon-proof, or be able to be witnesses to your crimes and you be able to do fuck all about it.

Because these smaller fake people mean no more or less to me than the taller fake people.

Read through the posts you have quoted. I agree that if a village gets massacred the kids should go with the rest of the people. I got nothing against killing off kids if it's relevant to what happens, nor do I got anything against Deus Ex permitting child murders. I don't say their lives are worth anything, I simply want to know why you desperately seem to want to kill kids in games.
As for your well worded response to my question. Why shouldn't developers let us kill children? I am not sure if you remember what happened when Manhunt 2 was about to hit the shelves a few years back. It was almost kept from being released and even when they got the permission they weren't sure if they dared to release it. That was a very violent game, but it did as far as I know not include the death of children. So the answer is, no developer wants to risk their game being banned in huge parts of the world. So including the ability to kill children might actually severely hurt the money they earn. It also hurts their political standing.

So it's mostly a political/financial reason it's not included? Good. I'm completely fine with companies not wanting to risk their profits, but playing the morality card simply makes no sense to me.

I installed the mod so kids would be as vulnerable as everyone else. I don't think about the kids in this game much at all, since they're not important to pretty much any quest. But far be it from me to tell people how to play their game. If they want to kill (fake) kids in game they paid 60 bucks for, let them. There's nothing wrong with that.

And nudity was once an instant AO rating for games. Now we see it pop up pretty regularly. In game death of children will most likely go the same way.

After discussing this you made me realize that I really don't care about who I kill. So including kids in the next GTA games wouldn't make me care one way or the other. However I am not a big fan of open world RPG games such as Skyrim where I get the opportunity to kill anyone that aren't my enemy so none of my favourite games give me the chance to kill anyone I am not supposed to kill.
However the financial and political bullshit might make a few games flop, even though the taboo on nudity in media is quite big too. I could be wrong though, I am too young to remember if anyone mentioned that when Deus Ex rolled out. I still laugh at that video where a guy gives a kid a candy bar to get a password then kills the kid, steals back the candy bar and dumps the kid in the ocean.

 

[Ulquiorra4sama]

I don't own either MW3 or Skyrim so i guess my human faults are already on the table now, huh?

Personally i'm not much NPC killing unless they're a bunch of annoying tossers. In that i don't mean just some mean-spirited comments after YOU engage them in conversation, but some that actually follow you around and call you a weak, pathetic jackass (or play you music, or ask for money).

The comment about street performers and beggars in Assassin's Creed sparked this 'cause i never actually felt any desire to kill those who didn't bother me, and from what i've seen the NPCs of Bethesda games aren't very fond of movement so if i just moved out of their vocal range i would think my urge to kill would be fading.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

I really don't get why this whole argument has come up lately...

Yahtzee, Devs and everyone who doesn't want kiddies to die: Shut up. You are never going to convince people otherwise. They will install their mods, and go about their merry way.

Modders and everyone who wants it: Mod. Install. Enjoy. Shut up. You are never going to get devs to put that kind of thing in a game and probably shouldn't. I'm as pro kill-able kids as it get's, but the amount of bad publicity for games simply isn't worth it.

My point is, there is NO argument to be had! Neither side will EVER convince the other!

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

See, here's the thing; I think people just want to get back at the kids because as so many people have said they're annoying little shits. Now I don't think that necessarilly means they want to kill them, it's just that they're presented with absolutely no way to get back at the children what-so-ever. Killing them is, however, very easy to mod in. I'm willing to bet that at least half of the people who used that mod would be happy with a non-lethal way to get back at the smug kids. For example, pinching them by their ear lobe and dragging them off to their parents to see if they intended to raise their children to mouth off to the hero of the land...

But of course that's hard to program into the game in the first place and presumably even harder to mod in later. So we're stuck with either having invulnerable kids who cannot be harmed in any way by the PC, or potential child murder.

However, there is one potential solution I can think of in Bethesda-style open world games like Skyrim. Have a set of dialogue for every child in the game that will send them off crying to the hills, Tranquility Lane style. Easy to program in, and greatly reduces player's homicidal rage towards the horrible kids. Or it can just let them be a dick, but I think we can agree the potential for murder and corpse-posing already available in these games is worse than making a child cry.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

I don't think people actually kill children using that mod. It's a classic tale of wanting to do something that you shouldn't do. And once you're able to do it it becomes boring. For obvious controversy reasons Bethesda couldn't make killable children, so it was up to mods to do it. I don't have that mod because it doesn't add anything to the game for me. I don't feel the need to kill kids because there is no reason to. They don't have anything valuable and they aren't a threat. They are just there for the immersion.

 

[The Random One]

The main fault with this argument lies with the idea that 'everyone can agree child murdering is wrong'. Everyone has their own idea of where the line beyond which everything is a hideous act lies, and everyone believes their own idea is shared by everyone except heartless deviants. Forget not that for some people, pretend-murdering people in a videogame lies beyond that line.

 

[thelustyargoniandude]

I honestly think that some people just find it funny. Sure, they may argue that it's for immersion, but, I mean, it's just kind of ri-goddamn-diculous to see a virtual, non-human child get picked up, tossed around, and spit up by a freaking dragon. Hell, I've even giggled at youtube videos of Skyrim children getting hit by a giant and launched into the ionosphere just because it's so insane.

 

[Feylynn]

I haven't bothered adding the mod yet, might at a later date but that remains to be seen.

My complaints with immortal children are:

A: It doesn't have to be me that kills them, Dragons are crazy and eat people. This provides the risk that would require me to protect the children. As it stands the mechanics reinforce to the player that "It's not necessary to protect children while they are being eaten by dragons."
Since this argument is all about unrealistically twisting the moral ground until you stand above the opponent, there you go. It's immoral that the life of a child is being devalued and discarded as something non-precious and unworthy of protecting.

B: I alternate between super heroic love for all types and nihilistic world ending jerkwads. When I playing the latter it has nothing to do with whether or not I would kill a kid, it's what my character would do, some bad guys don't spare children. Dragons don't spare children.

Next list.
"Would NPCs that act remotely human be higher on the list?" Yes.
But let's look at the cost vs reward.
Item on agenda_____|Immersion added.|Effort to achieve goal.
_______________________________________________________________
Killable Children.____|1%?__________ |2 minutes plus upload time.
Hyper realistic AI.____|480%?________ |30 years (random number) and we are still not there.

Let's assign the game an arbitrary immersion value of 100 and see how much immersion you'd end up with after these equations assuming 50 years of R&D.

Realistic AI: 480 Immersion.
Killable Children: 480 Immersion+1% as the developers found the time to shove that AI out the door last minute.

This is about what is easiest to achieve first and what is more important when we find out how to actually go about it.

 

[newdarkcloud]

You're correct, I don't want to kill children. However, I would like the option to bully those obnoxious little shits and get them to stop acting so goddamn smug. Something like a speech check or allow us to use unarmed until they're at half-health. Something to make them less annoying.

Or better yet... Bethesda, stop making all the children in your games obnoxious little shits.

 

[CarbonEagle]

I have to disagree with the comparison to killing children being like raping them. The comparison could only be made if the children were making provocative poses tempting you to rape them like they do with bratty remarks tempting you to kill them. Come to think of it a satisfying alternative would be a mod that lets you brawl with them anytime you like and if you win they shut up for an hour

 

[ACman]

I dunno. The first born son of the Jarl of Whiterun is going to feel the sharp end of my sword as soon as I get that mod: Smart-tongued little runt.

 

[Archaon6044]

can't i kill the children for being smarmy and smart mouthed? like the kids in Dragons' Reach "are you a new servant?" or when i go into my house and find one of them in there! i feel well within my right to give them a stabbing for that. i don't let Nazeem get away with his smack-talk

 

[Thistlehart]

So, a summary of responses so far.

Pro-mod:
Whaaa! I'm not getting what I want! *childish flailing*

Anti-mod:
Whaaa! You people are monsters! *childish flailing*

Did I miss anyone?

In all seriousness, I support the Anti-mod group. Less because of moral grounds and more because of PR. We as gamers have to start taking a little more responsibility for what our games say about us as a community. Freedom of expression is a fine thing, but it can be taken to an extreme. Do we really have to go there, just because?

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

Suggestion to Yahtzee: don't tell people you read the comments. You'll notice now how almost every single one is addressed directly to you (including this) and has taken the opportunity to tell you how you've sold out because you once advocated child killing in Fable 2.

 

[Zenkem]

I hate unkillable NPC:s, and Skyrim is just rubbing it in my face. When getting the first mods before starting the game, I noticed the killable children mod and thought "heh, I guess its just natural that someone makes this too." After playing the game for a while, I REALLY saw why it was needed! I still haven't downloaded it, but I feel so much better knowing that I could kill those brats whenever I wanted.

If there really is a law about not allowing children to die (what about the MW3 shock scene?) and you must have them in game, then its okay to leave it for modders to do on their own computers.

 

[thiosk]

Also, my wife didn't bat an eyelash at a thing I did in the game-- but I got on that one murder/cannibalism quest -- "oh im so sleepy, i think i will rest on this dark altar..."

it was a little too much for her. I had to wait til she went to bed before feasting on the flesh of the pious.