Extra Punctuation: What Is the Matter with You People?

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

I really don't get why this whole argument has come up lately...

Yahtzee, Devs and everyone who doesn't want kiddies to die: Shut up. You are never going to convince people otherwise. They will install their mods, and go about their merry way.

Modders and everyone who wants it: Mod. Install. Enjoy. Shut up. You are never going to get devs to put that kind of thing in a game and probably shouldn't. I'm as pro kill-able kids as it get's, but the amount of bad publicity for games simply isn't worth it.

My point is, there is NO argument to be had! Neither side will EVER convince the other!

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

See, here's the thing; I think people just want to get back at the kids because as so many people have said they're annoying little shits. Now I don't think that necessarilly means they want to kill them, it's just that they're presented with absolutely no way to get back at the children what-so-ever. Killing them is, however, very easy to mod in. I'm willing to bet that at least half of the people who used that mod would be happy with a non-lethal way to get back at the smug kids. For example, pinching them by their ear lobe and dragging them off to their parents to see if they intended to raise their children to mouth off to the hero of the land...

But of course that's hard to program into the game in the first place and presumably even harder to mod in later. So we're stuck with either having invulnerable kids who cannot be harmed in any way by the PC, or potential child murder.

However, there is one potential solution I can think of in Bethesda-style open world games like Skyrim. Have a set of dialogue for every child in the game that will send them off crying to the hills, Tranquility Lane style. Easy to program in, and greatly reduces player's homicidal rage towards the horrible kids. Or it can just let them be a dick, but I think we can agree the potential for murder and corpse-posing already available in these games is worse than making a child cry.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

I don't think people actually kill children using that mod. It's a classic tale of wanting to do something that you shouldn't do. And once you're able to do it it becomes boring. For obvious controversy reasons Bethesda couldn't make killable children, so it was up to mods to do it. I don't have that mod because it doesn't add anything to the game for me. I don't feel the need to kill kids because there is no reason to. They don't have anything valuable and they aren't a threat. They are just there for the immersion.

 

[The Random One]

The main fault with this argument lies with the idea that 'everyone can agree child murdering is wrong'. Everyone has their own idea of where the line beyond which everything is a hideous act lies, and everyone believes their own idea is shared by everyone except heartless deviants. Forget not that for some people, pretend-murdering people in a videogame lies beyond that line.

 

[thelustyargoniandude]

I honestly think that some people just find it funny. Sure, they may argue that it's for immersion, but, I mean, it's just kind of ri-goddamn-diculous to see a virtual, non-human child get picked up, tossed around, and spit up by a freaking dragon. Hell, I've even giggled at youtube videos of Skyrim children getting hit by a giant and launched into the ionosphere just because it's so insane.

 

[Feylynn]

I haven't bothered adding the mod yet, might at a later date but that remains to be seen.

My complaints with immortal children are:

A: It doesn't have to be me that kills them, Dragons are crazy and eat people. This provides the risk that would require me to protect the children. As it stands the mechanics reinforce to the player that "It's not necessary to protect children while they are being eaten by dragons."
Since this argument is all about unrealistically twisting the moral ground until you stand above the opponent, there you go. It's immoral that the life of a child is being devalued and discarded as something non-precious and unworthy of protecting.

B: I alternate between super heroic love for all types and nihilistic world ending jerkwads. When I playing the latter it has nothing to do with whether or not I would kill a kid, it's what my character would do, some bad guys don't spare children. Dragons don't spare children.

Next list.
"Would NPCs that act remotely human be higher on the list?" Yes.
But let's look at the cost vs reward.
Item on agenda_____|Immersion added.|Effort to achieve goal.
_______________________________________________________________
Killable Children.____|1%?__________ |2 minutes plus upload time.
Hyper realistic AI.____|480%?________ |30 years (random number) and we are still not there.

Let's assign the game an arbitrary immersion value of 100 and see how much immersion you'd end up with after these equations assuming 50 years of R&D.

Realistic AI: 480 Immersion.
Killable Children: 480 Immersion+1% as the developers found the time to shove that AI out the door last minute.

This is about what is easiest to achieve first and what is more important when we find out how to actually go about it.

 

[newdarkcloud]

You're correct, I don't want to kill children. However, I would like the option to bully those obnoxious little shits and get them to stop acting so goddamn smug. Something like a speech check or allow us to use unarmed until they're at half-health. Something to make them less annoying.

Or better yet... Bethesda, stop making all the children in your games obnoxious little shits.

 

[CarbonEagle]

I have to disagree with the comparison to killing children being like raping them. The comparison could only be made if the children were making provocative poses tempting you to rape them like they do with bratty remarks tempting you to kill them. Come to think of it a satisfying alternative would be a mod that lets you brawl with them anytime you like and if you win they shut up for an hour

 

[ACman]

I dunno. The first born son of the Jarl of Whiterun is going to feel the sharp end of my sword as soon as I get that mod: Smart-tongued little runt.

 

[Archaon6044]

can't i kill the children for being smarmy and smart mouthed? like the kids in Dragons' Reach "are you a new servant?" or when i go into my house and find one of them in there! i feel well within my right to give them a stabbing for that. i don't let Nazeem get away with his smack-talk

 

[Thistlehart]

So, a summary of responses so far.

Pro-mod:
Whaaa! I'm not getting what I want! *childish flailing*

Anti-mod:
Whaaa! You people are monsters! *childish flailing*

Did I miss anyone?

In all seriousness, I support the Anti-mod group. Less because of moral grounds and more because of PR. We as gamers have to start taking a little more responsibility for what our games say about us as a community. Freedom of expression is a fine thing, but it can be taken to an extreme. Do we really have to go there, just because?

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

Suggestion to Yahtzee: don't tell people you read the comments. You'll notice now how almost every single one is addressed directly to you (including this) and has taken the opportunity to tell you how you've sold out because you once advocated child killing in Fable 2.

 

[Zenkem]

I hate unkillable NPC:s, and Skyrim is just rubbing it in my face. When getting the first mods before starting the game, I noticed the killable children mod and thought "heh, I guess its just natural that someone makes this too." After playing the game for a while, I REALLY saw why it was needed! I still haven't downloaded it, but I feel so much better knowing that I could kill those brats whenever I wanted.

If there really is a law about not allowing children to die (what about the MW3 shock scene?) and you must have them in game, then its okay to leave it for modders to do on their own computers.

 

[thiosk]

Also, my wife didn't bat an eyelash at a thing I did in the game-- but I got on that one murder/cannibalism quest -- "oh im so sleepy, i think i will rest on this dark altar..."

it was a little too much for her. I had to wait til she went to bed before feasting on the flesh of the pious.

 

[Feylynn]

I really don't get why this whole argument has come up lately...

Yahtzee, Devs and everyone who doesn't want kiddies to die: Shut up. You are never going to convince people otherwise. They will install their mods, and go about their merry way.

Modders and everyone who wants it: Mod. Install. Enjoy. Shut up. You are never going to get devs to put that kind of thing in a game and probably shouldn't. I'm as pro kill-able kids as it get's, but the amount of bad publicity for games simply isn't worth it.

My point is, there is NO argument to be had! Neither side will EVER convince the other!

I'm pro mod, not trying to convince devs to risk their neck adding something we can easily get ourselves. My opinion is voiced here purely on the principle that I believe we should be allowed to put ANYTHING in ANY game we damn well please.
I won't bother defending case by case hypothetical extremes that respond to this because the likely answer is. "Don't want it, don't download it. I won't."
But if people want obscene mods than more power to them.

Honestly I'm still confused why this mod is getting all the attention, have people even looked at the game balance changes? Now THAT is some evil nonsensical stuff.

 

[Iron Lightning]

Yahtzee, it's called verisimilitude. You knew this word last week but you seem to have forgotten it now.

Young man, you have to keep up on your vocab lessons.

 

[Duffeknol]

"And if we're talking Skyrim, if realism is your concern I'd think you'd want to start with making all the characters look and act like actual human beings."

Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen.

The NPCs in Skyrim are the murderers of any sense of immersion.

 

[Something Amyss]

Pro-mod:
Whaaa! I'm not getting what I want! *childish flailing*

Anti-mod:
Whaaa! You people are monsters! *childish flailing*

Did I miss anyone?

Me: WAAAAAAA! I was left out!

In seriousness, I GUESS I'm anti-mod, only in the sense I wonder what this says about the community. That and I find the realism/immersion argument to be hilarious.

"I can't stand it that children are treated as immortal in a game where I can face off against fictional monsters and defeat them with incredible powers. It just totally breaks immersion that something unrealistic is happening in SKYRIM!"

Otherwise, I just don't really care. Let kids have their baby killing mods, I guess. Though I was also amused that the pedophilia issue seems largely an elephant in the room, especially if "realism/immersion" is the issue.

 

[RJ Dalton]

Jake died in The Dark Tower.
Twice. Long story.

 

[skywolfblue]

Well said Yahtzee. I agree.

I feel like Yahtzee has already answered his own question on this one (even if he tries to deny it by saying it doesn't fit in the story). I quote:

"Most gamers are dickheads and if you give them any kind of freedom, their first instinct will be to abuse it. If you give them guns, they will shoot old ladies. If you give them cars, they will run over old ladies. If you give them aircraft, they will ascend to the highest possible heights and hurl themselves out onto an old lady. And if you give them customizable outfits, their first instinct will be to take off their clothes and run around the streets hip thrusting in the faces of old ladies. If you try to stop them doing all this, they'll hate you for it."

Mod tools, one of the more permissive modding communities out there and a little barrier of 'no you can't' is just about all it takes. It doesn't detract from the fact that child killing is horrible, but you did after all explain to us that gamers are dickheads. Dickheads like horrible things and to roleplay doing horrible things.

Agree. I was reading through this thread and got positively disgusted that there were a whole slew of people championing the fact that they proudly engaged in...

What about "Skyrim Sex Life"
which is just about killing women and artfully placing them because you cannot have as many wives as he wants?

http://kotaku.com/5863096/a-peek-inside-the-home-of-skyrims-first-serial-killer

This piece reminds me of that.

...Stuff like that. I find it sickening that people would do that on purpose and find it "fun". It's one thing to kill darkspawn, dragons, zombies or bad guys. It's another entirely to take pleasure in murdering innocent civilians simply to feed sociopathic desires.