Extra Punctuation: What Is the Matter with You People?

[Zhukov]

That doesn't make sense.

If it's all about the tone of the game and the restrictions that enforce that tone, why would Skyrim allow the player to murder entire villages worth of innocents? How does putting an arrow through the throat of every farmer you see match the whole adventurer thing any more than methodically killing kids?

 

[JesterRaiin]

For me it's very simple : no immortal beings. If it isn't supposed to be killed then it shouldn't be there at all. However i'm an old fart and i know the difference between real life and game and no amount of hyperrealisic gore will ever change it.

BTW : Some time ago i went for a little trip to Egypt and was surprised to find very small amount of women. In some cities they were almost completely absent. Since then i'm completely ok with lack of some obvious elements in videogames.

"Anyway, everyone knows children never die in fantasy stories, even if everyone else in the village does. 'Cos then the child is expected to go off and train for fifteen years until they're built like a bullock barbecue and can take revenge on the dark lord who orchestrated it all. It's pretty much the law."

Roses are red
violets are blue
in Soviet Russia
your father avenges you

 

[q_tf]

Dude, there is a slight difference between depicting the murder and the sexual intercourse with a child, the latter being illegal in most jurisdictions.

I always pictured you as some kind of a bitter misantrophist who expresses his anger and disappointment through video reviews and now this stupid reasoning in favor of kids being immortal. Are you actually nice?

BTW: Kill their parents, that'll give them what they deserve. IMO Bethesda should bind their existance to their parents state: Parents dead->remove children. Or they could have implemented some kind of a "fading away when dead" thing instead of an actual death animation.

 

[Blind Sight]

Skyrim lets you be evil so you go about your merry way.

Yay! Rob, Kill, Slaughter, betray, burn (I assume there's some way to light people on fire in the game), slaughter, slaughter, slaughter, genocide, murder some more.

What? You can't kill children, that's too evil.

Tis not a bad point. I was playing through Fallout 3 as basically a cannibalistic mass murdering zombie Confederate psychopath in a stealth suit (yes it was silly as hell). I had basically ripped my way across the Wasteland, selling people I didn't like into slavery, wiping out entire towns because their goods were overpriced, killing Three Dog because he said mean things about me on the radio, etc. Then I get to Little Lamplight. The extent of my evil there was making a little girl cry and just kind of responding rudely to people's questions. Yeah, weird contrast.

 

[Woodsey]

"And then I read the news story that modders have put child murdering back into Skyrim."

This should be called "allowing for Skyrim children to die," because that's the overall purpose. Alright, murdering them might be the main specific, but once a town's had a dragon fuck the ever-loving shit out of it, it is a little bizarre to see Little Timmy survive.

MW3's is pointless and lazy, simply allowing it in Skyrim is not really the same thing. If people are going to take issue with the latter, then don't play the games at all, because you won't be able to handle the fact that people will slit a hobo's throat for a carrot.

"The designers of Skyrim are trying to create a setting in which you forge an epic fantasy story. And whether your story is one of a fine upstanding swordsman, or a neutral mercenary, or a morally flexible assassin-thief, pausing on your way to work to methodically slice your way through a row of innocent schoolchildren is going to turn that story into something it doesn't want to be."

And yet you can spend 10s of hours picking flowers and making potions that let you sprint for longer. Hardly an epic, yet still an option.

The designers of Skyrim set out to create a world in which you can do whatever the hell you want; they don't let kids die because its deemed to be in poor taste because... well, because.

 

[Otaku World Order]

Funny enough I seem to remember you complaining about NOT being able to kill children in a game yourself Mr Crowshaw. Fable 2 i think it was, Saying something about "So much for total freedom ey?" "Suddenly we're getting off-message" I don't think it so much that children are the only ones you can't kill, but more that children are the only ones who can't die. If I can kill everything else and everything else can kill everything else, why do the kids get a free pass? And I doubt people would mind so such but it seems that the kids have become aware of their invulnerably in almost every game they are in and won't stop taunting the player about it.

But you won't be happy until someone makes a mod that allows you marry Barbas will you?

To be fair, Fable has always bragged about it's freedom of choice and blah, blah, blah. I think it was more a case of Yahtzee ragging on all the Molyneux Hype Speak.

Speaking of Fable, I remember a whole bunch of people were bitching about the dog dying in Fable 2 to the point that Lionhead had to add a DLC patch where you could bring the stupid mutt back. Now we have Skyrim and we're getting "invincible children ruins my immersion".

I guess my question is, would someone make a patch to make killing dogs okay?

 

[Trishbot]

Maybe I've just grown to hate children due to constant exposure to morons on Xbox Live, but whenever I see a sarcastic, annoying child in Skyrim, my blood boils, I see red, I taste blood, and I imagine him tea-bagging my corpse.

If nothing else, I'd like to at least dangling him off a cliff or throw him in a monster-infested cave.

Concerning MW3... yeah, the series has devolved from "substance" to "shlock", and I don't think money-grubbing Kotick minds or dimwitted, hype-buying fans of the series care. They could release a COD game at this point that is nothing but shooting defenseless women and minorities and it would STILL sell a ton more than most other deserving games.

 

[Sylvine]

That the way You want to go, Yahtzee? Seriously? I thought better of You. Oh well. Everyday something new.

I assume next time You read an article somewhere about how all games featuring killing are bad "because there are some lines You just don't cross", You'll just nod in agreement.

As for Your recontextualization: Yes, I would actually like to have that option (except that for Your example to be valid, You'd actually have to be able to rape adults, not just engage in consentual sex with them). In a game like Skyrim, I want consistency, and I want freedom. That also includes the freedom NOT to do things even if You can. We don't get (too many) immortal "good guys" because "killing is wrong, but killing innocent people especially so". They didn't disallow stealing from poor people because "stealing is wrong, but stealing form the poor especially so".

If you draw an arbitrary line there, fine, but at least don't moan that others draw an arbitrary line somewhere else, and You're only fine with it because You already crossed it.

Dude, there is a slight difference between depicting the murder and the sexual intercourse with a child, the latter being illegal in most jurisdictions.

Both of those are illegal in most jurisdictions.

I do believe he meant the depiction of sexual intercourse with children being illegal as opposed to the depiction of murder. But yeah, bad wording made it kinda hillarious.

~Sylv

 

[Tiamat666]

I don't think the point is "killing children". One of the appeals of open world games is that you can do so much stuff and the "realism" that is associated with that. Even if you don't intend to kill kids, knowing that you could, because the game allows you to is part of that enjoyment. Also, if you cast a huge fireball in a city to notice that everyone, except the children was killed, is kind of a bummer in the context of portraying that open-world realism. And I agree with that sentiment.

I don't want to kill kids in videogames, but if a dragon sweeps down and incenirates some travelling folk, I don't want the kids to miraculously defy the laws of the (game) universe, become fireproof and survive.

 

[Blind Sight]

Skyrim lets you be evil so you go about your merry way.

Yay! Rob, Kill, Slaughter, betray, burn (I assume there's some way to light people on fire in the game), slaughter, slaughter, slaughter, genocide, murder some more.

What? You can't kill children, that's too evil.

Tis not a bad point. I was playing through Fallout 3 as basically a cannibalistic mass murdering zombie Confederate psychopath in a stealth suit (yes it was silly as hell). I had basically ripped my way across the Wasteland, selling people I didn't like into slavery, wiping out entire towns because their goods were overpriced, killing Three Dog because he said mean things about me on the radio, etc. Then I get to Little Lamplight. The extent of my evil there was making a little girl cry and just kind of responding rudely to people's questions. Yeah, weird contrast.

Indeed, BTW I had no idea you could kill 3 Dog, now I just want to find the guy and talk to him.

I think it would be messed up if people demanded you kill kids in a game like L.A. Noire or any other game where you only play as a good guy.

Yeah I can definitely understand how contextualizing the 'evil' is necessary. It's actually funny when you kill Three Dog, because then his assistant takes over the station and just randomly mentions how 'some asshole killed our DJ'.

 

[q_tf]

Dude, there is a slight difference between depicting the murder and the sexual intercourse with a child, the latter being illegal in most jurisdictions.

Both of those are illegal in most jurisdictions.

Wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filicide#In_fiction_and_culture

Child pornography is - no matter if real or animated - illegal.

 

[Pete1001]

I still call bullshit to all those ''immersion'' people. Strange how not being able to kill kids bothers you so damn much while floating over a fence is a-ok.

That's a shitty argument.

Glitches are things everyone expects to be removed, and things that the developer tries to get rid of.

That's why video games get patches, that's why the larger studios hire full time testers.

It's not a Glitch when it is in practically every Open World Game and is never removed. Ever see a Fence where, if it's short enough, instead of floating over it the Character will have a Leg on the Ground on each side of it?

No?

Yeah I thought so, shut the fuck up with the lame ass excuses. But fine, how about the Health Bars? Doesn't bother you? What about candles not lighting when you give them a blast of fire? No, that's ok I guess. But hell, being able to kill kids is a outright necessity...if you're a lunatic that is.

The difference between all that is that they made the children immortal on PURPOSE, whereas everything you listed is either a glitch or a unimplemented feature (except health bars, but what do health bars have to do with this?).

 

[WanderingFool]

Anyway, everyone knows children never die in fantasy stories, even if everyone else in the village does. 'Cos then the child is expected to go off and train for fifteen years until they're built like a bullock barbecue and can take revenge on the dark lord who orchestrated it all. It's pretty much the law.

This reminds me, im still waiting for a story that takes this basic premise and completely turns it around and inside out...

 

[sinterklaas]

I do not agree with Jahtzee's criticism of the child killing mod. I would never kill a child in a game, however I still find it hugely annoying that it isn't possible. I can kill everyone and everything in game except for those stupid immortal children. It just doesn't make sense. I might even download that mod, I still won't kill any children but at least the game will feel that much more complete. This "would somebody please think of the children!" attitude bothers me.

Comparing being able to kill every living thing in a game to fucking children goes way to far and is distasteful to say the least.

And even disregarding everything else, why in god's name is killing an adult somehow less evil than killing a child?

 

[Woodsey]

I still call bullshit to all those ''immersion'' people. Strange how not being able to kill kids bothers you so damn much while floating over a fence is a-ok.

That's a shitty argument.

Glitches are things everyone expects to be removed, and things that the developer tries to get rid of.

That's why video games get patches, that's why the larger studios hire full time testers.

It's not a Glitch when it is in practically every Open World Game and is never removed. Ever see a Fence where, if it's short enough, instead of floating over it the Character will have a Leg on the Ground on each side of it?

No?

Yeah I thought so, shut the fuck up with the lame ass excuses. But fine, how about the Health Bars? Doesn't bother you? What about candles not lighting when you give them a blast of fire? No, that's ok I guess. But hell, being able to kill kids is a outright necessity...if you're a lunatic that is.

Those are game elements. They're necessities that people accept to make the things playable, or they're limitations of design (you can't have one leg on either side of the fence because it'd be a complete waste of time trying to get it to work).

'Children' not being able to die in the game when every other thing that can die is able to makes things jar.

It is no more insane to question why kids in games can't be killed then it is to question a developer if they were to make random NPCs invincible for no reason whatsoever.

The real question is why you think its perfectly acceptable to murder virtual adults, whereas killing virtual children is a morally reprehensible sign of a lunatic.

 

[lord.jeff]

I know this argument is already being made but it's fantasy, just because I kill a kid in a game it doesn't mean I want to kill kids anymore then I want to kill real grown ups after I kill grown ups in games. And if I do get the child killing mod it's so I can wipe out every person in the game and be ruler of my barren landmass.

 

[Cowabungaa]

I still call bullshit to all those ''immersion'' people. Strange how not being able to kill kids bothers you so damn much while floating over a fence is a-ok.

It does break my immersion. Not of the whole game, but it dampens the impact a dragon attack has. I want them to be lethal, dangerous, I want a bigger "Oh shit" feeling out of them. If after a dragon attack, no matter what happens, some kids are just standing around the skeleton, that kinda puts a damper on a dragon's danger and evilness.

So yeah, my immersion argument comes not from realism, because that's silly. I just want dragon attacks to have more "oomph" to them, so to speak.

 

[Levethian]

Was he stretching for material or was that really his argument?

You wouldn't put the option of fucking kids there because it's illegal, as opposed to fucking (consenting) adults. Meanwhile, murder is just as illegal and immoral in both the case of the adult and the child, maybe the latter is slightly more, but only slightly. In this case, you lose the differences in legality and morality almost entirely.

Q_tf made the point that;
The depiction of murdering an adult is legal.
The depiction of murdering a child is legal.

But in yahtzee's contextualisation;

The depiction of shagging an adult is legal.
The depiction of shagging a child is illegal.

So it falls through somewhat... Apples & oranges, etc.

If a Dragon flame-broils a child, it should die.
Perhaps a mod that allow enemies, but not the player, to kill children would satisfy the morally outraged here?

It doesn't matter if it's done on purpose or not, there are plenty of things that should be immersion breaking, people however only seem to have a problem with immortal kids.

Modding mortal children is vastly easier than any of the game-system-related eccentricities you mention, not to mention totally different in nature.

 

[Unesh52]

I still don't see how child killing turns "that story into something it doesn't want to be." You can already blaze through town, murdering every innocent shmuck that crosses your path before rummaging through their stuff and taking all their valuables. But killing children? Oh, well that would make the game dark.

/sarcasm

 

[thiosk]

I *do* want to brain that little snot in Dragonsreach...

but I won't go and mod the game to do it.