Extra Punctuation: Why No Couples in Games?

[Arren Kae]

We need strongly established (and completely controllable) characters

These are contradictory premises. A strongly established character is one with a defined set of traits and personality. A character completely under the player's control is one which only has personality traits in so much as the player adheres to them.

The characters don't get reduced to plot devices; they are instead essential to your progress to the game.

Characters are essential to the player's progress b/c they act as plot devices. Alternatively, they may be needed to win combat or travel.

 

[Drake666]

Yahtzee loves Dragon Age 2 like a ******.

Who doesn't ?

(ok, a lot of people ... but I still think the dialogue and the gameplay mechanics were pretty good...)

 

[dirtsa]

Wasn't 2 of the party members in Baldurs gate a couple? the druid chick jaheira and khalid?

Yes. Khalid and Jaheira were a married couple.


It would be interesting to see a non-RPG* game were the main characters were a "normal" couple without the non-playable person getting kidnapped, killed etc. I just don't think we'll see that in the near future since it seems like the whole "death/kidnapped love interest" works too well as a plot device or something.

*I'm saying non-RPG since RPG's focus a lot on the story, characters and in-game relationships in general. These days I kind of expect RPG's to focus on relationships between either NPC-NPC or NPC-player character at least to some degree (not necessarily romantic).

I think some of games I've tried with the best written in-game-relationships are: The Baldur's Gate series, Mass Effect series and Dragon Age Origins/2. (Yes I'm a fan of Bioware's games).

 

[teisjm]

Wasn't 2 of the party members in Baldurs gate a couple? the druid chick jaheira and khalid?

Yes. Khalid and Jaheira were a married couple.


It would be interesting to see a non-RPG* game were the main characters were a "normal" couple without the non-playable person getting kidnapped, killed etc. I just don't think we'll see that in the near future since it seems like the whole "death/kidnapped love interest" works too well as a plot device or something.

*I'm saying non-RPG since RPG's focus a lot on the story, characters and in-game relationships in general. These days I kind of expect RPG's to focus on relationships between either NPC-NPC or NPC-player character at least to some degree (not necessarily romantic).

I think some of games I've tried with the best written in-game-relationships are: The Baldur's Gate series, Mass Effect series and Dragon Age Origins/2. (Yes I'm a fan of Bioware's games).

Well, considering that the normal playable character (PC) doesn't have a normal 9-5 job, but is rather out saving the world, unless the PC's NPC spouse is part of the world-saving/alien-killing crew, he/she would just end up like cousin roman from GTA4 who seemed to be more annoying to people that appreciated.

 

[Pyramid Head]

Not a lot of games ever try to break away from a generic action formula. Yeah it would be more interesting if characters had relationships and such and they actually tried to make you feel attached to the characters, but most game developers don't seem to have the balls (Or talent) to try it. I'd say try it yourself, but you're focused on making erotic gun homicide if i'm to take one of your earlier articles seriously, so i guess...
...i'd say i'll try it, but i've never tried drama. Be a bit of a challenge. Especially since i can't program. At all.

 

[JohnnyDelRay]

Apology for snip

I'll agree with your POV, it doesn't seem like the reason a guy would play a game, as they don't get off on the whole relationship thing as much as girls do. The magic in a start of relationship maybe a bit more, but the maintenance of one hardly, I'd imagine. Hence why Sims games just aren't too popular with the blokes. So maybe that's why it isn't explored too much, and not nearly as much as in Bioware games.

I still think Enslaved had a little bit of chemistry, execution well or otherwise, it had a firm handle on the plot progression. A bit of a surprise when

Spoiler

Monkey tells Trip not to take off his slave-headband although their "mission" is done and she's back home, when he realizes her grieving at her lost tribe/family, he feels sorry enough to want to help exact revenge, over the course of their journey that bond was somehow developed.

Pity you didn't finish the Witcher 2 also Yahtzee, there was some real interesting mechanics in place there, which you even had control of in terms of what kind of relationship you had with Triss and how much she means to Geralt (kinda wished I went with her now in the first game for some continuity instead of Shani, but Shani was so much hotter).

But yeah, I'm also getting tired of revenge and such for loved ones being used as a plot device, hardly pushes my buttons anymore unless it's done reeeally well. Heck, even Dead to Rights: Retribution had a dramatic moment when

Spoiler

his dad dies, and he grieves in the rain for a bit

. And that games about as brainless shoot-kill-maim as it gets, yet it didn't seem out of place in the plot as much as Dom and Maria.

 

[Nate-ndo]

How could Yahtzee not mention Anju and Kafei from Majora's Mask?

Actually, he's probably never played it, since he mentioned OoT3D was his first run through Ocarina of Time.

 

[Gyrefalcon]

I agree that this lack of true relationships in video games is silly and it stops video games from being taken seriously as a medium. Your examples remind me of Aeris and Tifa in Final Fantasy 7. I could never tell which of them was supposed to actually be Cloud's girlfriend/love interest so I didn't really care at all when Aeris died.

I think I've yet to see a believable married couple depicted throughout a game.

I saw it done once and only once and that was in Jade Cocoon 1. It actually had a good depiction of a young married couple each doing their best to help with saving their village. But if you didn't spend a lot of time on long, long, yes I do mean long sections of dialog spewed out by various villagers instead of cheerfully fighting monsters you could miss a lot of the plot. The second Jade Cocoon was awful and made girls into cheerleaders (literally) for the boy characters who "had to get stronger".

So if you would like to see a VERY good approach to the relationship idea in a game and can handle some pretty old graphics I would recommend checking out Jade Cocoon. Brigidine might have actually had a few characters that were committed to their fight and to one another in the game's side stories as well. But it wasn't played up much, and I don't blame them since it wasn't the game's main focus. It did lend a richer texture to it though. Dragon Age is trying but still gets into the "killing off Bambi's mother" mode in both 1 and 2. And Bioshock Infinite already has a girl set up for getting killed from using her powers. Hmm. Do you know of any where the guy gets killed instead? :/ I really hadn't thought about that aspect. But I have to agree with your Aeris issue. For all the effort they put into her death scene, it wasn't very gripping because you didn't feel much commitment between the characters. I am wondering what Thief 4 might bring with the young female apprentice.

 

[Zetsubou^-^]

no mention of things like harvest moon/rune factory where one of the usually required tasks is (a PG) courtship and marriage? well i suppose those relationships do drop off a cliff after you've heard everything they can say, plus the wife doesn't add a big change to most of the games. she can pretty much be ignored in all of them. maybe that is a good place to start though. how can you expect a game like gears of war or Mario to have a meaningful relationship when a game that's supposed to make/have one doesn't?

and for all the fan-fiction, there is little evidence to show Mario and Link would ever get a relationship from anyone. they play up the Mario-Peach tie, but for all we know he lives with his brother and is only friend-like with Peach. and the only Link I've seen that had a reasonable shot at a relationship was the one in twilight princess, because he was already close to Ilia, and (i gathered)returned to the village. all of that is speculated though, because they have never really geared the games to show Mario or Link do all that for the girl. they do it because they are the good guys, and because its right. maybe that's the mark of a good selfless hero? i know some don't like the idea =D

I don't think all of these games need relationships, but the ones that attempt one should at least try for a meaningful one that doesn't always end prematurely or tragically.

 

[Jaqen Hghar]

Spoilers for both The Darkness and Brutal Legend ahead:

Spoiler: The Darkness

I see one user briefly mentioned The Darkness. I think they handled it pretty well to make you care for your characters girlfriend. Even though she does die, as per what you mentioned in you article is one of the usual endings for a relationship in games, it had more meaning behind it. I think it was the fact that they made you able to sit down in a couch, snuggled up with her, watching an entire movie. But is has been a while since I played it, so maybe I remember it wrong.

Spoiler: Brutal Legend

You are all probably wondering what the hell I am smoking, right? Well, while the relationship you develop in the game between Eddie and Ophelia isn't that fleshed out, I feel it worked. But the thing that makes me mention this is the scene you can have with her after you beat the game. I don't think I have seen such a heartfelt and sweet making-out scene in a game ever before: Link to said scene on youtube [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFIMn6GZWiQ]

 

[Collins254]

Final Fantasy VIII had the whole Squall-Rinoa thing, what about that?

All though I suppose it's stupid how Squall goes from not giving a shit about anyone but himself to loving this girl he's just met, I don't get that.

But I mean, they really loved each other.

But it was more than that, if you really want to get into it.

Spoiler

he was over cautious about making friends and trusting people because he was a loner as a child and the only person he had ever loved already left promising to return and never did so he has trust issues. Yet rinoa sticks by him and slowly shows he can trsut her and helps him make friends and come out of his self preservative shell, he then develop feelings for her and would do anything to no lose her like he lost ellone. This caused him to think deeply on what she meant to him and made him realise he loved her, also the timeline of FFVIII isnt over a few days, although its portrayed that way its meant to take place over several months, which might i point out couples get married in less time in reality.

ye you ninja'd me on FFVIII all through reading that post this game was in my mind.

also yes there probably wasnt need for the spoiler but just incase there are people who havnt played FFVIII and want to in the near future

 

[Marik Bentusi]

Healthy relationships don't have cover-based combat. There's your problem.
Alright, but seriously, here are the two big things I think prevent complex relationships from being made part of a game:

1. The current big AAA money makers demonstrate game makers worldwide that you don't need a compelling narrative and that sticking with general clichés and recipes is completely fine. On the other hand, whenever someone is listing positive examples that break out of gaming clichés, it's often from games that went down the drain or were made by developers that went bankrupt at some point (poor Looking Glass).

2. It's always a risk for the developers to flesh out character or set them in important relations with the main character because somehow it's stuck inside devs' heads that the player is only able to immerse themselves if they pretend to be the character, so the protagonist has to be as bland as possible and any relationships arbitrary so players don't have to care and can focus on the cover-based combat instead.
(I do really dislike the pacing of cover-based combat, sorry.)
Yes, this is also the kind of developer that thinks Americans can only understand Americans. No, I don't think we have any other option but amputate.

3. Think about a number of games where you have a female companion that's a teeny tiny bit human. Now subtract the number of games where the community didn't find them annoying. Now subtract the number of games where the female companion's sole point isn't showing off a part of the female anatomy or do porn star moans.
The gaming industry is so focused on copying each other and making dull sequels we forgot to hire writers apparently. When was the last time you were actually conflicted to pull the trigger? When was the last time a villain had actual character development that didn't lead to sudden redemption or joining the team?

The worst part is that it actually works. I'm looking really forward to Deus Ex 3, especially the stealth and story, and it didn't even bother me the love interest is used to be the revenge motivation AGAIN. And I really don't see the character falling in love a second time during the game or do anything else but uncover conspiracies, shooting bad guys, and taking revenge.

 

[Therumancer]

Well, you never seem to read responses Yahtzee but I'll point out that there are JRPGs that depict exactly what your talking about. If you look back at games like say "Thousand Arms" or the more recent "Agarest War" titles, these games both include ongoing romance plots/dating sims along with the RPG adventure stuff. Of course it's a no win scenario because chances are any game that included what your talking about would immediatly be shredded by you for being "creepy" and a form of entertainment for nerds who have never enjoyed any kind of female companionship IRL.

To be honest I also think your missing the point that most games are about stuff happening. A deep relationship starting makes a good "happily ever after" ending to explain what happens with the hero when it's over. A dedicated adventurer, or someone intending to take down an uber bad guy (or group of them) is quite probably going to want to avoid seriouis romantic entanglements, family raising, and other assorted things until it's safe to do so. I mean if by definition you feel the need to spend nearly every waking moment questing towards some purpose, your not going to be able to reliably stay at home with the wife and kids. Some people aren't douchebags and wouldn't make that committment knowing that couldn't honor it, and game heroes tend to be noble on most levels, and that kind of goes along with it.

Now granted, heroic fantasy only covers so much ground, and that's the fuel for games. That genere is used, because it works for the core experience people want. It's also important to note that in real life people can, and do commence relationships, including gamers (Lol!), the point of gaming is to vicariously do things you can't do IRL. It's about the pursuit of unreality in order to get away from reality. As odd as it might sound, your more likely to take a real girl out on a date, than say fight aliens with futuristic weapons.

At any rate, my suggestion is to look towards the dating sim genere if this is what interests you. You know, games like the one that Japanese guy apparently married. There are also a few hybrid games I mentioned, and if you can get past hypocricy in screaming "creepy" for doing what you want, they are okay, but I don't think anyone has ever gotten the idea to "click" properly and that's why you see less of them.

I think the odds of seeing a game seriously developed along these lines and succeeding is roughly on par of seeing high quality, mainstream game titles released with hardcore lesbian bondage romance/sex/love scenes for pervs like me. >

Oh and one other one. In "Alpha Protocol" two out of three of the potential love interests are likely to live to the end of the game. Who, if anyone, is waiting for you in your boat at the end is one of the variables in the game. The romances here being dependant on building relationships due to selecting the right kinds of dialogue options at the right time. Now granted, that doesn't sound like a lot, but consider the current technology. It's not like we have virtual "designed to be seduced" AI programs or anything.

 

[dnose]

Another exception to this rule is the Uncharted series. Drake's relationship with Elena has evolved quite a bit over the course of two games and given that she's wearing a wedding ring in the trailers for Uncharted 3, it look as if they might now be married.

 

[MagnetoHydroDynamics]

Some of the best relationships are found in the two games I always banter off about.
Aquaria and Sword of Mana.

Aquaria has the love interest as an interesting plot device, given it's themes of loneliness. It gives the main character some intelligent (non murderous intelligent) company and provides visual cues to their relationship even down to idle-animations of them holding hands, looking into each others eyes, etc.
Of course this love interest is used in a kidnapping, but the kidnapper is a jealous god who wants the main character for itself, so that again is motivated by some form of love.
All in all, solid relationship-based plot.

Sword of Mana goes an interesting path of almost characterising the villains better than the protagonists. It lets at least six relationships play a major role. Of course the main hero and the main heroine have the hots for each other, but during a separation of the main characters, both of them reunite with old lovers, and the heroine even finds new one in addition. The main villain's parents' relationship play a vital role in the backstory, and the villain himself falls in love.
Here the relationships are used to convey two themes: "Every one is human" and "There are bigger concerns than your personal happiness."
The main characters act as normal humans would, they have a variety of love interests and don't find the "one and only." The villain is made human by his relationship to such a degree that you actually feel bad about killing him (he's not the real baddie anyway.)

Spoiler: Then there's the ending and there are bigger concerns than your personal happiness.

In the end, the heroes don't get each other. That's new. Actually, the heroine sacrifices herself to prevent the end of the world.
The hero has to start his life anew, what with friends and lovers dead and horrible deeds on his mind.

It is a bittersweet message that the journey often matters more than the goal.

I need to get a girlfriend.

 

[DreadfulSorry]

I've gotta say, I'm starting to enjoy these segments more than your videos. Your arguments are extremely well voiced; Extra Punctuation updates have definitely become one of the highlights of my week.

 

[Cecilthedarkknight_234]

some decent visual novels and rpgs "i don't call them jrpgs or wrpgs" have pulled this off but it's something that's just really hard to do. Most of the time it's your typical b-love romance or just forced relationship along the way... I will not list any because I am sure some of you have trolled or flamed the titles already but I will say one thing, being the perv that I am even love plus scares me.

 

[Keith_F]

Whenever I think of relationships done wrong in video games I always think of Indigo Prophecy. Here's a game aspiring to put story and character development first. It takes a great deal of effort building up these (supposedly) interesting, fleshed out characters, such as Carla Valenti, a strong-minded police detective. And then what does it do in the final act? SPOILER: It has her fall in love (for no apparent reason) with the male protagonist, who she just met five minutes ago, so that it can push them into an unnecessary and genuinely creepy sex scene just before the final scene.

What might have been a passable story with better-than-average characters is completely derailed by the developers compulsion to insert some kind of requisite romance.

 

[Ilyak1986]

I really fail to see what Yahtzee's harping about. Yes, action/shooter games have little to no plot. We all knew that already.

However, in better games, the relationship (either explicit or implied) really drives so much of the plot.

Starcraft: half of that universe's entire plot is driven by two people: Kerrigan and Raynor. Namely, the latter's love for the former, and the former's status as a hero->fallen hero->central villain->anti-hero on path to redemption (in HotS). Just about everything Raynor did was driven either through love for Kerrigan, or out of a sense of loyalty to Tassadar for saving his ass on Char after he chased Kerrigan out of love.

Final Fantasies: 8 has been mentioned, and I've played VII and X (and XII). X was driven around the fact that Tidus had the hots for Yuna. X-2 was driven around the fact that Yuna had the hots for Tidus and wanted him back (not out to avenge a personal slight, but she just wanted him back). VII was the interplay between Cloud and Tifa. Yes, Tifa was his love interest--he's just really craptacular at expressing his desires. He met Aeris for the first time in the game, she wouldn't screw off when he said women should just stay in the kitchen, and then she goes off and gets herself killed. Tifa was Cloud's pal from childhood. Then she grew tits. The rest is history. XII utterly fails because there's next to no important relationship in it. Vaan and Penelo are completely empty characters there just to market the game to teenagers (Basch was supposed to have been the lead character), Ashe doesn't really love anybody living and just wants her kingdom back, and Balthier is a side character despite being the Han Solo of the game.

Legend of Dragoon: Two separate love stories. Two and a half in fact if you count Dart's dead mother (Haschel's daughter?). Rose/Zieg/Claire and Dart/Shana. The game is more or less driven around Rose guiding Dart around because he's like his dad, and Dart loves Shana and goes nutso over her the whole game, in which she's more than a princess to be rescued.

Fate/Stay Night: once you get into VNs, you realize the different paths are usually about which female the male lead falls for, yes?

But of course, if you look at God of War, Gears of War, Diablo 2, DotA, etc. etc. etc., you realize that the plot in those games sucks.

We knew this already.

 

[Zom-B]

Extra Punctuation: Why No Couples in Games?

Yahtzee wonders why there are no functioning relationships in games.

Read Full Article

So, you've officially run out of interesting things to ***** about, right? Seriously, Mario and the Princess? What do you want to see, a hardcore sex scene every time he rescues her? I know you must understand that the Mario games are firmly entrenched in the world of fairy tales and children's stories, where the beautiful princess rewards her handsome rescuer with a kiss on the check and later they get married and live happily ever after and have seven sons and seven daughters. Mario games are not about romance or sex, they are about a guy jumping over chasms and on the heads of walking mushrooms. You might as well be lamenting that the there's no romance in Dr. Suess books, that the Cat in the Hat didn't fuck Horton after he heard the Who.

I know you're just taking the piss, but bringing Mario into this article was either desperate, thoughtless or both. It makes your good points so marginal that no one can really take anything else you say seriously.