Extra Punctuation: Why Regenerating Health Sucks

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Triforceformer

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Steve the Pocket said:
Triforceformer said:
Well when I said "Speculation" I meant that the fine details were still a bit hazy. But the EGO system is very definitely the following. It's a health bar, which goes to a Critical Health mode if its depleted. You can take quite a beating, even if you're a modest Duke. The EGO Bar regenerates to full after 5 short seconds without being hit. If you do something cool or Duke-like, Gearbox calls these "Duke-isms", the overall EGO bar increases. Admiring yourself in the mirror, bench-pressing 600 pounds, executing (Mighty Boot) an enemy, etc, all inflate your EGO.
Ugh. What's the point of all those fancy ways to earn EGO if it just jumps up to full by doing nothing? That's worse than plain old regenerating health in my opinion; it means they went to a lot of trouble to include a feature nobody will use because by the time they even get to a point where they can, they'll be back to full EGO already.

What they should have done was make the EGO be tied directly into how much he rules at any given moment. Dealing damage slowly restores it; running away and hiding like a scared bunny actually makes it go down slowly; successfully finishing off a room full of baddies brings it back up to full, like in Arkham Asylum. And so on.
They tried that in Manhattan Project, without the "Lose health by hiding" thing, I think. It was alright, but a bit frustrating if there weren't alot of enemies around. Also, the point of all the fancy ways to earn EGO is so that later parts won't totally kick your ass. Sure your base EGO can take quite a bit, but DNF ain't gonna be a push over based off the comments who got to play the first 90 minutes. Besides, I'd be worried about Duke's mental health if his EGO was fluctuating that much. :p

I think you may have mis-interpreted DNF's EGO system a bit. It's not that Duke-isms restore your health, it's that it makes the overall bar larger. Yes, it jumps to full pretty quick, no that ain't gonna help when there are 5 pig cops and an Assault Commander coming after your balls of steel simultaneously. The enemies in DNF aren't just glorified whack-a-mole like CoD. They're constantly pushing in on you to kill you as quick and hard as possible. Duke-isms help give you a much needed edge when things get hectic.

You see how big the EGO bar is in those videos? That's not how big it is at the start of the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-97N6jNKb4

About 3 or 4 minutes in is when you see Duke's starting EGO bar. That shit ain't getting you past level 15, which is much bigger when you get there in that demo. You're going to need every mirror, weight bench, pinball machine, and powerup you can get to make your way through. Not that a "MODEST Bar" challenge where you NEVER use a Duke-ism wouldn't be interesting.
 

thereverend7

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Veterinari said:
I really liked what Assassin's Creed 2 did. There you've got a bunch of health check-boxes, each worth about 4 of the smallest type of hit, if I remember correctly. Thing is, you don't die immediately when you hit 0, you just enter a "Sudden Death" mode while your last health check-box regenerates. So in a game where you have somewhere around 100 hp towards the end you regenerate up to 4, which means you have a chance to make it to a doctor, but without really being a in a position you wanted to start a fight in.

thereverend7 said:
Believe it or not, i had a similar idea to yahtzee's about that "luck" system. you could have a character who is considered "very lucky" and as he's getting shot at, the bullets whiz by or he happens to dodge them. once your luck bar runs out though, its close to curtains for you. you would have a very limited health bar and once the bullets started hitting you, it would be realistic and you would die in one or two shots.
FiendishFu12 said:
I'm genuinely distressed that Yahtzee has thought of my 'luck' system to replace health. For years I thought I was terribly clever to be the only person to have come up with it. Damn you, you behatted semi-Antipodean.
I've seen variations of this idea in indie tabletop RPGs and the likes. The reason I think it's never really caught on is that in the end it's pretty much just that you change the name of the red bar in the corner and remove a little effect that adds drama. And it gets a bit weird in some situations with stuff like fall damage - you land totally unscratched twice when jumping out of a window on the third floor and then you instantly die when stepping down from a table.
I think it could be done in a game like devil may cry or something really well. what i mean by that is you could have an over the top character- someone who does things that you couldn't even dream of doing at all times, so why not throw in dodging bullets and calling it luck? or "slickness" or something.
 

Keldrif

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Ok so I have been working on a Rpgish map for StarCraft 2 for the last few months. It's kind of an homage for the "NOTD" maps with more Diablo 3 like abilities. My health system is kind of a hybrid. First there is no heath regen, but every class has shields that do regen so its like to health bars. And I liked the idea Blizzard had for D3 to curb potion spam with the God of War heatlh orbs so I put that in my map as well. Now in my map some enemies have a higher chance of dropping health orbs and the others are good at keeping you away from them, which I think works pretty well at least in my map where I am trying to encourage teamwork. A good team can pick off the "health droppers" then work their way through the others to make quick work of a mass of enemies. While a crappy team will get separated and over whelmed with no chance of reaching the health orbs.

The death system is also a Diablo rip off when you die you drop you gear and a naked clone is created at the last cloning station then the clone must make his way back to your equipment to have a chance of continuing on.

I have a lot of hope for health orbs, it works really well with a group of people that work together with the bonus of getting rid of the need for a medic I never liked playing a healer, I wanna kill stuff and with this setup everyone is the healer and no one is the healer. The best strategy seems to be when the team is at full health they should focus on killing enemies when shields start getting low and the group starts taking damage let guys with full shields move up and cover while the other let their shields regen, and when the team needs health cover the guy closest the the health orbs while he picks them up. Once the team is back to full health it's back to killing and covering who ever has the lowest shields.

But the best part of all this is it lets me send a small group of heroes against 1000s enemies, and a good group can smash their way through them in no time by taking turns covering and picking up heatlh to keep the team at full health. While a bad group has to pull little groups of enemies and wait for their shields to regen between pulls and the health orbs go poof before they were anywhere near them. Plus the more time you waste the harder everything gets and you eventually die because you couldn't work together. But thats just what I like.
 

JohnnyDelRay

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Health systems to me are fine the way they are, for games that need immersiveness and planning out attacks (Dead Space 2, Bioshock) and have lulls in combat and exploring (FarCry2), it works well.

For games which need run-n-gun non-stop pacing, the regen health system works well. For those kinds of games (Vanquish, Gears of War), to have to stop and think and worry about health kits/healing just takes away some of the action.

Although it seems a few more games are gravitating towards this these days, I'm not complaining. Enemies getting more brazen to come and finish you off when they know you're wounded, and responding like so is a nice touch.

I remember those games on the other end of the spectrum, 2 shots max and you're down. Bloody Rainbow Six: Raven Shield was tough as hell, I could finish almost all terrorist hunt maps. Now, after finishing R6: Vegas 2 terrorist maps all on 'Realistic', I go back and play that and can barely get past 2 levels =S
 

ImprovizoR

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I've been saying this for years. Regenerating health dumbs down the overall experience. It reduces the thinking part of gameplay by at least 60%
If you don't have to worry about your health then what else is left for you to worry about in a game?
 

Xanadu84

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michael87cn said:
Xanadu84 said:
Bullshit. Entitled to your opinion sure, but frankly, Yahtzee is just plain wrong here. Regenerating health is a great idea. It resets every challenge, giving a fresh perspective each time. No artificially difficult sections where you have extra low health, no resource management to distract you from the action at hand. There are PLENTY of other ways to add narrative continuity besides a big red bar. Not every game should have regenerating health: Games like Half Life, Dead Space, etc get a good deal of improved pacing and tension from a health system. But honestly, I can't name a game with regenerating health that should have used hit points, or vise versa. For all the design mistakes out there, the health system choice is not one of them. Maybe video games just need more games that have a slower pace, and less focus on manic action. Maybe we need less games that benefit more from regeneration. But that's a completely different aissue. Regenerating health is here to stay. And you know what? Regenerating health may not be realistic, but it FEELS more realistic. Because if you don't die, you can simply assume that whatever happened was an ignorable flesh wound. That feels a lot more reasonable then getting shot in the face, being fine, then dying from a paper cut.
Bullshit? Hardly.. I see regenerating health as boring as turning on God mode. Let's look at Call of Duty as an example. You can die very fast, but you heal very fast. It's very easy to become punished by the game, but also very easy to finish the game without any real challenge( when it comes to shooting at things atleast ). Basically, as long as you don't run out into the open like an idiot, you'll NEVER DIE. To make the game the slightest bit challenging... ENEMIES NEVER MISS. Pop your head out for a second? TATATTAT BAMBAMBAM you've been sighted with terminator like efficiency and shot at before a single second can tick by. BUT, all you need to do to survive is make pop-shots or throw grenades over cover and slowly, oh so very very slowly crawl from cover spot to cover spot to finish a mission..

Shooters have DIED. They've become military training simulators, and that's great if you're gung ho about the military, but what about those of us that want to play a good old fashioned shooter? At least in Halo 1 it was just a weak shield that regenerated, that was cool because you still had to manage your health blocks and it gave you a little freedom to make some mistakes. Now a days you can't make mistakes or you get the dreaded game over screen, you can't go in guns blazing and just enjoy blasting everyone around you away while managing your health, and you can't play a game in a different way. It's always the same game of ducking behind cover, making a popshot/burst fire then duck back and heal up , twiddle your thumbs, go bake a cake, etc come back and move to the next cover; oh look a quick time event killed you because you were so BORED you weren't expecting something crazy to happen.
But you're no longer talking about regenerating health. You are talking about badly done regenerating health. Anything poorly design is going to be dumb. Or it might just not be to your taste.

There are plenty of factors to include that can tweak regenerating health: Speed of regeneration, how quickly you hit regeneration, and the like. I just think its a little silly to complain that regenerating health punishes you to strongly for a mistake, and then turn around and say its too easy. Its neither. It's a design choice. People have different tastes, it doesn't mean one or another is inherently bad. If you don't like regenerating health, maybe you prefer slower paced game with less twitch and more resource management. If you do, you might like something more fast and furious. That's a matter of taste, not a failure of the mechanic. But regardless, there is a very good, legitimate reason why Call of Duty has regenerating health, while Dead Space has Health Packs. They compliment the game like White Wine compliments Fish. Maybe you just don't like white wine.
 

AsianMafiaSin

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I'm surprised he didn't mention L4D at all. That game would be absolutely wrecked if it only required hiding for a few seconds to recover from a tank causing a car to run you over.
 

Koeryn

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I have a feeling that somewhere in six pages, my thoughts have been fairly thoroughly ninja'd. I'm okay with that.


Anyways, I just started playing Uncharted 2 today, and I found myself using the 'near death cover moments' to employ distraction techniques, disrupt the field of battle, or simply take a second to look over the field before I make my next move, something that would be next to impossible in a limited health scenario.

I love Half-Life, and I'm always amused (after the fact) of the lengths that I'll go to to retrieve a health vial from across the room without exposing myself to gun fire when my health is in the single digits (grenades + gravity gun can get you damned near anything you could possibly want from anywhere, in case you were wondering), but I don't really have a problem with a game that lets me have a breather while I try to decide what I need to do next.

Besides, if I had limited health, I'd be SO much less likely to just dive from cover to cover, grabbing dudes and punching their lights out while using them as shields until I can find more cover. Good times, I've saved so much ammo with that tactic. =D
 
Jan 27, 2011
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The idea for a "luck bar" is BRILLIANT. I like it.

Honestly, I liked Just Cause 2's health system. It regenerated, but every time you took damage, your maximum health went down. Basically, screw up too much and you only have HALF the health you normally have. To recover that, you need a medkit.

It was a good idea, and if the idea were take further and properly hybridized with the right way to recover health (item, attacking, health station, etc), it could be a GREAT idea.
 

NeutralDrow

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Can't say I inherently agree. I can think of plenty of situations where health pack systems were simply tedious, particularly if the last health station/pack/whathaveyou is several rooms back; I was one of the paranoid players of Duke Nukem who would sit at a drinking fountain or toilet for two minutes until my health returned to full, and those weren't in every room.

For that matter, I consider paranoid defense and health conservation to be far more of a break in the action than dodging behind cover for however many seconds, then leaping back into the fray.

I realize I'm certainly not a majority opinion-holder, but I'm far less of an "oh my god I can die at any second, this is so cool!" person than I am a "HOLY SHIT I AM FIGHTING THE ENTIRE ARMED FORCES OF TURKEY AND WINNING!" person.
 

Sandytimeman

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It's all been down hill sense Heretic imo.

But yeah I understand completely on the healing thing, it makes games like halo waaaay to easy. I miss the frantic and panic dash for cover...it seems it wasn't just me sucking but a universal experence :) which makes me feel better.

OH also Dark Forces 1 was really good too.
 

Crazed_Puppeteer

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One system that I've appreciated...the honor system. I've noticed that in many RPG's (Pokemon *cough, cough, hack, wheeze, hack, cough*) you can stock up on items as if they're Big Macs. I.E. a Full Restore for $3,000 doesn't mean all that much when you have $200,000 on you; plus if you are going off against the Elite Four, buying as many health supplies as possible diminishes any challenge they should have. So, if the game has a frustrating health system, create your own restrictions.

For me, I implemented some modified Nuzlocke rules for me, including limiting myself to 5 total healing items (plus anything I find on the path) for when I'm off exploring the world of Unova. Although this was already in store, I could see an honor code being used in other games. If I'm exploring one of the many rings of Halo (with regenerating health), just keep track of how many times you start blinking red (say 3 times in between checkpoints) and if you hit that number, kill yourself off and start over. For games like Splatterhouse that has you using an in-combat move to heal, just limit how many times you can use that move between checkpoints. For games like Super Mario Galaxy 2 (which has more available lives than stars), limit how many lives you can use per level.

Of course there are games that can't use an honor code, yes it doesn't work for everyone, and yes it is easy to break the honor code. With that said, I've found myself enjoying the extra challenge of self-restrictions. For me, self-restricting health items lets me enjoy more game for my money, and while all of my friends are sailing through certain games as if they were part of the development team (they weren't), I've found myself having a new appreciation for games, and finding the wait in between games to be much more enjoyable.
 

Michael O'Hair

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Yahtzee Croshaw said:
No, health systems are probably never going to be realistic, because in a truly realistic game you wouldn't be able to continue after getting shot once, and any game that doesn't let you make any mistakes isn't going to be much fun for anyone except insane obsessive no-hit-runners.
Someone who has been shot in the leg, foot, or arm would most likely be able to continue but with considerable difficulty, such as decreased agility or loss of the ability to aim properly. Games that come close to simulating the actual effects of bodily damage in combat are few and far between, excepting the "get shot in the head, you are dead" rule. But realistically, not all head-shots are immediately fatal.

As for realism: yes, games will never perfectly depict absolute realism when it comes to health systems, and games aren't stopping to ask to directions to get to that destination. Games shouldn't be absolutely realistic, and most of them don't want to be.

Yahtzee Croshaw said:
I do not know how anyone could have thought that regenerating health would enrich that experience. When your health can regenerate, all you need to do is, as ever, hide behind a wall and wait for a bit.
Regenerating health was a measure enacted by developers to meet players halfway in terms of game difficulty. Before 1996, I had never completed a Doom game while the difficulty was above "I'm too young to die", the lowest difficulty level, without cheating. All other times (on "Not too rough" up to "Ultra-Violence") I enabled [iddqd] from the start, and occasionally [idkfa] when hunting for keys in monster-less corridors became incredibly boring. I assume developers used regenerating health to discourage this kind of play, which is exactly the wrong way to play a game. It wasn't until the summer of 1996 that I had seriously attempted to complete the three episodes of Doom on UV without cheating. Two years after the sequel had been released. Call me risk-averse.

My complaint with regenerating health is that it regenerates far too quickly in most games: hide behind cover for a moment and half of your total vitality it restored. It's as if god-mode was built into the lowest difficulty levels of most modern first-person shooting games.

Health by station games tend to become slightly less boring than playing a game in god-mode due to the backtracking. When it was released it played Half-Life for the interesting level environments and horrible voice-acting (in the tesssst chamberrrrrrrrrrr), not the difficulty level, because interesting level environments and horrible voice-acting were things that the original Quake did not have.

Health by murder is interesting in that it encourages players to actually play the game and proceed forward rather than hunt for health packs that haven't been collected in the far corners of the current map.

Health by environment is mechanically identical to health by station, except there would be more health stations, and the health stations would become random terrain objects. Less boring, in a way, but eventually it comes down to players drawing health from whatever power lines/soda machines/lightbulbs are nearby. Too many or too few would break the game, and balance testing would be paramount in that kind of game.

Health by collecting second-chance flags (Sonic's rings) could be explored by first person shooter games, in a way. But really it would boil down into a combination of the regenerating health and health pack item pickup systems mechanically; start with health at 2, getting damaged reduces the health counter by 1, collect a health item or wait (run away) until the counter regenerates to 2, and when health reaches zero you're dead. This kind of system might encourage smarter play, such as not running in the open or between cover in directly front of enemies armed with automatic weapons, since "two strikes and you're out" will force players to take fewer risks.

Health by moving around isn't far from regenerating health by sitting still. Another aspect of regenerating health that isn't always taken into account by the player: why are you losing so much health? Are you running right up to the enemy instead of sneaking up on them? Not using cover effectively? Using the wrong weapon? Not using tactical retreat or grenades to lure enemies away from entrenched positions? Are you running into and through your teammates' lines of fire? Are you playing the game wrong (Commando-style*, instead of Rambo-style*)? Regenerating health time, the time players spend sitting still while they're health is restored magically, is almost never used by the player to reflect on why they were absorbing so many bullets/rockets/fireballs. Game instruction booklets have never contained basic infantry tactics. I see a few reasons for this, but will present only a three.

One: players don't read instruction manuals. That's a whole lot of trees gone to waste, and the paper is too rigid to be used as toilet tissue.

Two: learning movement and engagement tactics can become boring after a while. Who wants to study before playing a game? No one. They want the game and/or online opponents to teach them how to not die. And that's why modern games are composed of 10%-25% tutorial missions: because players don't want to read, and they expect games to hold their hands while they riding on training wheels that don't come off until the climax of the story.

Three: movement and engagement tactics that increase the likelihood of survival may make the game boring in the ways that cover-based shooters are boring.

In closing, I'll be playing some Metal Slug X after writing this junk, and dying a lot.

*Commando-style: reference to 1985 film Commando; running around shooting everything like an idiot.
*Rambo-style: reference to 1982 film Rambo: First Blood; using guerrilla warfare tactics.
 

boradis

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The best known comics and game character with automatic health regeneration is Wolverine, and it used to make him formidable in a unique way. Now that it's being imitated by so many other characters in comics and games it's removed even the small amount of tension that came with the willingness to believe the hero might somehow lose. And that's what the shtick does to games -- it removes tension.

Without tension there's no drama and little emotional involvement by the player. But watching people play online and reading message boards it seems many players these days don't seem to want any frustration. They go through all games speedrun style, unlocking content in the most efficient and mechanical way possible. And that's like reading a book just to say you flipped all the pages.

I remember the intense disappointment I felt in "Kingdom Hearts II" when I saw that all the treasure chests were just sitting on the ground. In the first game there were many which you couldn't reach the first time you visited a level because you didn't have the needed jumping or gliding ability. Returning to open those chests after having powered up gave me a feeling that I/Sora had truly grown in power. But the sequel lacked that feeling. As beautiful (and weird) as it was, I felt very little sense of accomplishment in the entire game.

Granted it's frustrating as hell to "die" in a game, but it's supposed to be. It's only by feeling that you've overcome long odds that you get a feeling of victory. In reality the player always has infinite health and only needs to reload or restart to regain their character's health. The "hide and wait" method removes even that imaginary tension.

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I like the health by checkpoint approach. As long as you finish the current level, or return to a base or house (GTA style) you're fine when you start the next section of the game. But I know many so-called "hardcore" players hate the inconvenience and frustration of checkpoints, apparently forgetting that that's the point. If you're low on health before you reach a checkpoint you're going to be emotionally involved in the experience in a way that you wouldn't be if you could just slowly "tank" your way through.

I want games to make me feel I've run a gauntlet, not just had a stroll in a park.
 

FieryTrainwreck

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I've never talked to anyone who dislikes the segmented health regen approach. Best of both worlds. You've got room for error and punishment for mistakes. Being hurt doesn't mean you're screwed, but you need to play more cautiously until you find an item to top off your health. That's real "pace" based on player skill/preference rather than developer expectation.
 

AgentNein

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tweedpol said:
This has probably been said, but, in many many games WITH health bars (eg. Half life 2), I end up constantly quickloading every time I lose more than about 20 health, which is a bit like having regenerating health but more boring and cheat-y. Perhaps I'm a bit obsessive, but there are no end of games in which this is almost necessary, I'm reminded of Max Payne where towards the end getting hit at all meant you either died or were so close to death that you had to reload. I'm not saying regen is better, but it does allow for a better flowing game in many ways, the need to explore can be given in other ways. Prototype had a good system in my opinion.
I think it could be argued that this is more an issue with quicksave systems. As much as I was thankful for quick saving in say, Tomb Raider 2 I ended saving every minute of playtime and reloading every time I took a smidge of damage. Definitely didn't play that way in the first game!
 

Awexsome

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I think giving the player at least a bit of regeneration is good so they don't get stuck in a screwed situation. I agree that everyone using the CoD system of take 5 bullets at once, die, take 4 bullets then hide for a few seconds = perfectly fine, is getting pretty old from its overuse recently

IMO Halo CE was my favorite way to manage it. You've got your shield bar which can regenerate, then your health bar which ain't coming back. I think a lot of modern shooters could go with Reach's example where if you lose health, it'll regenerate only to certain points (in Reach every third is a permanent loss until a health pack is picked up) so you won't ever face a one shot dead scenario but will still face consequences for getting shot/hurt too much that last encounter.
 

Aleol

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You know, at least in Halo (all the titles) the regeneration made some sort of sense. It wasn't Master Chief's health that regenerated, it was his suit's shield. His health was pretty much always really terrible, as he could only take a few hits after his shield was down. In the first game, he actually did have a health bar separate from the shield that did require health packs, but I think they got rid of it in favor of crappier health and a better, faster regenerating shield.

All the other FPS's that have regenerating health systems don't really make sense, I agree. It is mostly in shooters that this occurs, but I think MGS 3 had my favorite ever

Edit: AAAAANNDDD, ninja'd
 

AgentNein

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I honestly don't think that this is a cut and dry kinda thing though. Health regeneration really, really effects pacing. It's practically the difference between a first person action game and a first person survival horror game. I love survival horror, and I know yatz' does too so I understand the bias. but it IS a bias!

Say what you will about the Halo games, they definitely have some solid pacing. Better pacing than a LOT of FPS games and that's in large part due to the regen health.

I don't know man, personally I like me a good health bar system. Maybe a good middle ground would be a dual health bar system, one represents your health and then a longer one representing the health you can gain back if you can just stop being a fucking bullet sponge for like a minute.
 

Perfice

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I agree with most of that.

I first noticed how annoying regeneration could be by playing the Vanquish demo. For one thing when you're just about to die the entire game slows down except for the player. Giving you time to jump behind cover and just blast the enemy to hell that shot you. Hell, you could just not get hit which was easy to do when the bullets slowed down and healing only took not getting shot for a few seconds whether you're behind cover or spanking your bottom at the enemies in the open. That and dodging made you nearly invincible from almost any attack, whether it was casual gunfire or a swarm of missles blasting your position.

The game looked cool enough but the gameplay and generic main character made it very boring to me.

EDIT :: However, I don't really think it was even worth it to post an article about such an obvious thing.