Fans Petition to Save Ambitious Lord of the Rings Mod

[Bara_no_Hime]

Because that would mean they have to share.

Yes, but it would make a lot of money with little to no risk or investment on their part. These people are making this mod for FREE. You wouldn't have to pay them as much as you would a real game studio.

It would be a great deal for everyone - WB, Bethesda, and the creators of the mod. Bethesda gets to release a game for 60 bucks that costs them nothing (they already made Skyrim), WB gets a tie-in game that will actually sell well and will cost far less than actually hiring a team to create a tie-in game would have, and the creators of the mod get to keep working AND get paid for it. Win/Win/Win.

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

Remarkable.

Recently, I considered getting the Extended Edition set on Blu-ray.. after I had a little "boycott hissy-fit". This was over WB forcing a Brit pub to change itself or close it's doors because it was "Middle Earth" themed. I'm American, but I saw that and I said.. "Really?"

I was just looking at buying the set yesterday, too. Nop.jpg

see, this is exactly the sort of bullshit that makes me say WB shouldn't have any rights.

also, #7943

 

[Oroboros]

If it's a mod...how can 'they' stop it?

It's like the owners of the BattleStar Galactica IP suing over that recent FreeSpace 2 mod.

A similar thing already happened with the BSG mod of Nexus: The Jupiter Incident. I honestly wouldn't be startled if the Freespace 2 mod got a cease and desist as well.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/113559-Battlestar-Galactica-Mods-Get-Frakked-By-NBCUniversal

 

[Froggy Slayer]

Why doesn't WB ask for permission to use the Skyrim engine from Bethesda, and then hire the modders to create a better LOTR game than they ever could?

 

[Celi]

On the ModDB page I didn't see anything about the (unexpected) journey to the Lonely Mountain (and back again). If that's included, then cutting just that should be enough to prevent the mod from competing directly against any games WB might be planning on releasing in the near future. In which case, why do they care? I'd probably still be annoyed if they actually had a reason to stop it, but if it's not competing directly against anything WB is doing, it can only drum up interest in any Hobbit games they're planning. This seems pointlessly destructive.

Also, could someone with a head for legal nonsense explain why exactly the hell a game mod doesn't fall under fair use?

Why doesn't WB ask for permission to use the Skyrim engine from Bethesda, and then hire the modders to create a better LOTR game than they ever could?

They'd have to pay Bethesda (or Zenimax, or whoever) for it. Besides, people keep mentioning how WB couldn't make a game as good as this mod, which of course they couldn't, they're not a video game developer. They'd hire a developer and publish it, and who knows who that would be. Though, if they were planning on releasing a Middle-Earth RPG, they'd probably go with someone known more for structured RPGs than nonlinear ones, like BioWare or Obsidian.

 

[sapphireofthesea]

They may have a chance if they contact the real owners of the franchise. The Tolken family still own production rights (with reason) to his books. If they can convince them the same way Peter Jackson did, that it is a worthwhile, honorable depiction of his works they will have the power to change just about anything regarding the situation.
Remember, it took 70 years for a motion picture to be made because the family refused to give permission until a proper attempt was tabled, they are no fools and want to see his Legacy handled with due care.

Personally, copywirte is about making money from another's ideas. If no money is made, or reasonable spending of the same avoided as a result of it, then I, being in the position of having it happen to my own work, would have no issue with it. If people really love my work they will aim to get the real thing when they can and works resulting from it that do not make money from my ideas can only make the fans happier and more willing to see what I officially add later on.
Put another way, anyone who likes the mod will happily gobble up any similar, official works provided they are of decent quality. There won;t even be an issue of buy one or the other, they can get both.

 

[Darkmantle]

Because that would mean they have to share.

Yes, but it would make a lot of money with little to no risk or investment on their part. These people are making this mod for FREE. You wouldn't have to pay them as much as you would a real game studio.

It would be a great deal for everyone - WB, Bethesda, and the creators of the mod. Bethesda gets to release a game for 60 bucks that costs them nothing (they already made Skyrim), WB gets a tie-in game that will actually sell well and will cost far less than actually hiring a team to create a tie-in game would have, and the creators of the mod get to keep working AND get paid for it. Win/Win/Win.

Oh I never said it was a bad idea. It would work out splendidly. It's basically the same thing Valve has been doing, hiring and funding modders, and it's worked out very well for them. I'm just telling you why they probably won't. They think too short term.

 

[nexus]

see, this is exactly the sort of bullshit that makes me say WB shouldn't have any rights.

also, #7943

Yea, well.. I don't think corporations should have "rights" anyway. They bend the rules too much, and waste time and money in court when we could be using these resources for something constructive.

(What's #7943?)

 

[EscapeGoat_v1legacy]

Remarkable.

Recently, I considered getting the Extended Edition set on Blu-ray.. after I had a little "boycott hissy-fit". This was over WB forcing a Brit pub to change itself or close it's doors because it was "Middle Earth" themed. I'm American, but I saw that and I said.. "Really?"

Just throwing this out there, but the pub in question, The Hobbit in Southampton, is still open and awesome Pretty sure they decided that since Warner Bros. can't own the rights to the entire franchise (mostly because they don't, natch) they had no power over them. So far, so true, because that pub is still knocking about. It was definitely worth the trip down from Yorkshire.

OT: If I were the developers of that mod, I'd change any assets in the game that are copied from the existing movies (you know, like if Frodo looks like Elijah Wood, change that) and carry on, like The Hobbit pub.

 

[duchaked]

UNLEASH THE RIVER

but in all seriousness this mod already sounds better than any recent lotr game...tho ok war in the north was pretty fun but still :/ not truly epic so i guess a little underwhelming after all is said and done

 

[Erunamo]

Just throwing this out there, but the pub in question, The Hobbit in Southampton, is still open and awesome Pretty sure they decided that since Warner Bros. can't own the rights to the entire franchise (mostly because they don't, natch) they had no power over them. So far, so true, because that pub is still knocking about. It was definitely worth the trip down from Yorkshire.

WB had nothing to do with it. Middle-Earth Enterprises / Saul Zaentz Company owns the worldwide marketing rights and brand names. The last thing I read was about a month ago that SZC would issue a license to "The Hobbit" cafe for 100$/year and Fry and McKellen said that they would pay for the license should both parties come to an agreement. Since then I heard nothing.

 

[aattss]

They aren't claiming LOTR as their own, they're not ripping off source code or the script, and they're not making any money whatsoever. Isn't this as legal as, basically, fanfiction?

 

[Erunamo]

They aren't claiming LOTR as their own, they're not ripping off source code or the script, and they're not making any money whatsoever. Isn't this as legal as, basically, fanfiction?

What you - and the creators of the mod - are arguing is fair use. While I tend to agree with this, it is a difficult thing to prove in court. Having no profit off of something doesn't automatically make it fair use (if you are not familiar with the topic, read the Wiki page on it - it's actually quite accurate). There are four factors that have to be weighted against each other to determine fair use. One of them is

"In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:
[...]
- the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work."

So even if you create something for free BUT you hurt the current license holder in his market position, it may not be fair use.
Your fan fiction example, however, will hardly create any monetary damage to the license holder, thus it may be considered fair use while a widely popular mod that directly competes with commercial video games from WB might not be fair use.

 

[Pedro The Hutt]

Well, of course it is. Tolkien himself sold the film and merchandising rights. If he didn't want merchandising to appear around his works, he could have kept those rights in the first place. Or, in fact, adopt a "free to use" license in the first place.

Don't be so sure on that. Tolkien was notoriously pedantic about his works and scolded even the slightest deviation from his intention in translations, to the point he wrote up guidelines on how translators should tackle his work. According to Christopher Tolkien, J.R.R. only signed the movie contracts because he desperately needed the money at the time and never really wanted to see his works adapted into what he saw as a media form that never could do his works justice. Which is why he adamantly tried to stop Peter Jackson's The Hobbit from being made, and to this day has right out refused to watch the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

The Tolkien Estate, which, as mentioned, has Christopher Tolkien at its head also shut down a Morrowind Middle-Earth total conversion that was in the works back in 2004. So don't be so sure in saying that the good professor would gladly see any and all adaptations of his work. I'm fairly sure the RP in Lord of the Rings Online alone has turned his grave into a turbine capable of powering a small city... not to mention the game itself.

 

[Spartan448]

Signed this thing, proudly.

When humans limit themselves and their creativity for the simple promise of money, civilization stagnates. I've never liked copyright and piracy laws at present state because they only account for what MIGHT happen, not what WILL happen or what HAS or HAS NOT happened. When you prosecute someone for murder, it's because someone HAS been killed. When you prosecute someone for purjury, it's because the truth HAS NOT been told. When you prosecute for theft, it's because something HAS been stolen. If we start prosecuting before the fact (Like what happens here and in most piracy cases), than we might as well convict people who look like the MIGHT steal something. Sure, they might not, but look at the way he was looking at that CD... That doesn't stand up in a court of law, it shouldn't stand up here. If the mod is released and it really does cut into the profits and quality of Warner Brothers, then and ONLY THEN do they have a case. Right now, they have no basis to say that this mod will do ANYTHING to affect sales or quality. MERP should not just have a petition, they should go to court against the Warner Brothers legal team. WB has no case here, and it will not stand against trial by jury. This kind of behavior by corporations needs to end now.

 

[Aurora Firestorm]

So... a company is protecting their IP rights from people who are actually, intentionally, and totally infringing upon those rights?

And now the internet's throwing a hissy fit?

The Internet likes protecting fan work. Everyone is pissed over large fan projects that are done as a labor of love: the Zelda movie, every Chrono fan game ever made, things like that.

So, whoever made Skyrim should be thrilled, because the result of this will be a zillion people buying Skyrim for this mod. Whoever owns the LotR game series is going to panic, because this will be better because it is a professional quality fan work, meaning it's automatically better due to dedication than anything else out there.


I agree with some others in this thread: finish it anyway. If you have the sheer brass balls to do it, declare that you're doing it anyway and tell whoever else to shove it. If you want to be sneaky buggers, declare that your team has stopped working and that you're, say, handing it off to someone else for posterity or letting a few friends play what is there or opening the source code or whatever. Then finish it anyway, under different names, or even anonymously. Release it. Once it hits in the Internet, you *can't stop it*, and neither can the poor lawyers trying to step on you.

Who the hell owns the copyright to LotR anyway, since Tolkien has been dead for a while? Warner Bros. owns the *movie* but not the *universe,* if I am right. So anyone should be able to make material in the LotR universe.


This basically breaks the Cardinal Rule of Fan Projects: DON'T TELL ANYONE ABOUT THEM. Finish them, no matter how grandiose they are, in total silence. Leak them in an obscure corner of the Internet. Hide your names if you're worried. Now, watch them blatantly defy the losers trying to stop them.

I always wonder why companies don't hire clearly talented fans like this. Hideo Kojima is entirely encouraging the Metal Gear fan movie, so why can't anyone else lighten up? Nintendo should hire the Zelda movie guys for a movie. *People would watch it.* Whoever owns LotR should hire these guys.

However, what should *really* happen here is that the guys continue making their mod and just slightly rename everything. Then give a big Up Yours to WB.

 

[Azuaron]

Who the hell owns the copyright to LotR anyway, since Tolkien has been dead for a while? Warner Bros. owns the *movie* but not the *universe,* if I am right. So anyone should be able to make material in the LotR universe.

The copyright is owned by Tolkien's estate, primarily controlled by one of his sons (last I checked), and they are very litigious.

Warner Bros. has licensed the copyright and a number of trademarks for use in movie and videogame production, and, from the wording of their statement to the fan devs, it appears that they are shutting down the mod on the basis of trademark (not copyright) infringement, though if the trademark infringement didn't shut the fan devs down, Warner Bros. would likely notify the Tolkien estate of the copyright infringement, and then the estate would hammer the mod with that.

 

[Aurora Firestorm]

...If they were *nice people* they'd let rabid fans do their work some justice...they already have assloads of money, why do they need any more?

Escapist, please hold me to this. If I ever make a bestselling franchise in some medium, and a group of loyal fans wants to make the best fan work they can possibly make out of it, and they get no profits from it at all, and I sic lawyers on them, *please* punch me in the face until I stop. Like, seriously. Find me, sit me in a chair, and punch me until I say that I will stop being an asshole.

 

[Omnific One]

Wow, well, not going to see the Hobbit in theaters, I suppose.

Makes me happy I paid no money for War in the North when I had $5 in credit free from GMG and it was on sale for $5.

 

[Erunamo]

Don't be so sure on that. Tolkien was notoriously pedantic about his works and scolded even the slightest deviation from his intention in translations, to the point he wrote up guidelines on how translators should tackle his work.

Thank you for that lecture. If you had bothered reading my entire post you would have seen that I actually said exactly that after the following quote. Oh well...

According to Christopher Tolkien, J.R.R. only signed the movie contracts because he desperately needed the money at the time and never really wanted to see his works adapted into what he saw as a media form that never could do his works justice.

I would like to see a source on that, because Tolkien himself wrote (letters 198):

"As far as I am concerned personally, I should welcome the idea of an animated motion picture, with all the risk of vulgarization; _and that quite apart from the glint of money_."

From this quote, he was not altogether opposed to adaptations, despite the financial situation at the present time. He indeed mentioned the need for coin a whole lot during his letters in this period (the late 50ies). This, however, ceased to be the case in the 60ies (and was not relevant anymore in the late 60ies). In fact he mentions in 1962 (letter 238) that he would be "not likely to be hard up again in [his] time".
The only financial reason I remember was mentioned in an interview with Christopher Tolkien some time ago on a French website. It was stated that he sold the "movie rights and rights for derived products" for Hobbit and LotR to UA for 100,000 Pounds so that his children could pay the inheritance tax in the future.

Which is why he adamantly tried to stop Peter Jackson's The Hobbit from being made, and to this day has right out refused to watch the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

This is an interesting conjecture. Do you have a source? I know he wholeheartedly disliked the movies (which makes me think of how this was possible when he never saw any one of them) - but the only motivation for the Tolkien Estate v New Line Cinema lawsuit seemed (for me) to be royalty issues that were settled in the end. I'd be glad to find any sources that tell me otherwise.

The Tolkien Estate, which, as mentioned, has Christopher Tolkien at its head also shut down a Morrowind Middle-Earth total conversion that was in the works back in 2004.

I remember this discussion vividly, as it basically was the same one we have here today (and probably, sadly, with the same outcome). However I do not remember TE to be to blame there. If you dig up the old thread in the Nexusmods forums, suzerain states that they can't resume work on the Mod after negotiating with Tolkien Estate (first) and later in telephone calls with the holders of digital media rights. It was stated very clearly that the shutdown "was not due to the stance of the Tolkien estate".

So don't be so sure in saying that the good professor would gladly see any and all adaptations of his work. I'm fairly sure the RP in Lord of the Rings Online alone has turned his grave into a turbine capable of powering a small city... not to mention the game itself.

I never said that. I merely stated that he sold the rights. If he approves of the derived works is an entirely different question. Nonetheless in the end it all originated from his decision to outright sell the rights (and not license them for a period of time).

Who the hell owns the copyright to LotR anyway, since Tolkien has been dead for a while? Warner Bros. owns the *movie* but not the *universe,* if I am right. So anyone should be able to make material in the LotR universe.

The copyright is owned by Tolkien's estate, primarily controlled by one of his sons (last I checked), and they are very litigious.

Tolkien Estate does, in fact, not own the copyright in question here - at least not to full extent. The merchandising rights associated with anything LotR and Hobbit related belong to Middle Earth Enterprises / Saul Zaentz Company. WB obtained a license to use LotR and Hobbit related content in video game adaptations.
You can find that by reading the legal fine print on any LotR-game related website (here an excerpt from War in the North):

All The Lord of the Rings content other than content from the New Line films (c) 2010 The Saul Zaentz Company d/b/a Middle-earth Enterprises f/k/a Tolkien Enterprises (SZC). The Lord of the Rings: War in the North, The Lord of the Rings, and the names of the characters, events, items and places therein are trademarks or registered trademarks of SZC under license to Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment.