Far Right Boogaloo Bois from Texas Are Who Set Fire to Police Precinct During George Floyd Protest in Minneapolis and Open Fired on Police

[lil devils x]

That is all irrelevant, because we were not discussing your situation now, we were discussing your situation then.

Back then, you did not live by communist ideals, and lived in favor of self-interest, is that true?



So then they are not living by communist ideals and live in favor of self-interest, because otherwise, they would not smoke because it would be in your best interest, should they ever be around you.

Actually, that's a good, possibly better microcosm of the whole "communism vs human nature" thing right there. Ignore everything else above. Not smoking is better for the entire group, as smoking leads to increased health issues and therefore puts more strain on the hospitals or their equivalent, as well as harms certain individuals like you. Smoking itself is antithetical to your type of communism which is: "that we take care of everyone and all things and put all else before self". Smoking puts the self above all others. And yet, your culture smokes. Why? Human nature?

Should a good communist smoke?

My brother wasn't homeless THEN, he is homeless now. Also I lived in a HOA and no I couldn't have that many people living in my home either. Back then I have brought my sisters and my children into my home, and was exhausting my savings paying to keep both my home and my parents farm. Once I exhausted my savings to keep them in their farm, I SOLD MY HOUSE and spent that money to pay off the back taxes owed on the farm and to make the necessary repairs to their home. I didn't keep the money for myself. If I was acting in my self interest, I would still be living in my house right now and still have my savings and told my sister to find somewhere else to go. Addiction =\= self interests. If they were actually looking out for their self interests or anyone else's they wouldn't smoke to kill themselves in the first place. Issues like addiction or depression have little to do with conscious decisions.

In addition, I never said all my family members practice our traditional cultural beliefs and I do not speak for them. None of that has to do with "human nature". Also Smoking was not a part of our culture, smoking was infrequent and part of specific ceremonies and never was it " smoking cigarettes" You are trying to twist things to fit your narrative rather than any of that being this " evidence" you think it is. You sound as bad as those evo psyche professors who admitted they were just making shat up and talking out of their arse.

 

[Houseman]

If they were actually looking out for their self interests or anyone else's they wouldn't smoke to kill themselves in the first place.

Yes, that's exactly my point.

Also Smoking was not a part of our culture

In that same post, you said: "that is traditional in our culture".

He grows his own tobacco plants and I am not taking those in either. Even though yes, that is traditional in our culture

So please excuse me for being under the false impression that smoking is a part of your culture after you explicitly said that it was.

Either way, to pick up smoking cigarettes is to put the self above everyone else.
A good communist does not smoke. Here we have an example in your brother of someone who dropped communist ideals in favor of self-interest. Human nature 1, Communism 0.

That's the only point I intended to make.

 

[lil devils x]

Yes, that's exactly my point.



In that same post, you said: "that is traditional in our culture".



So please excuse me for being under the false impression that smoking is a part of your culture after you explicitly said that it was.

Either way, to pick up smoking cigarettes is to put the self above everyone else.
A good communist does not smoke. Here we have an example in your brother of someone who dropped communist ideals in favor of self-interest. Human nature 1, Communism 0.

That's the only point I intended to make.

* smoking* as is in cigarettes* isn't a traditional part of our culture. Ceremonial use isn't the same, addiction to cigarettes however, is a disease:

"Drug addiction, also called substance use disorder, is a disease that affects a person's brain and behavior and leads to an inability to control the use of a legal or illegal drug or medication. Substances such as alcohol, marijuana and nicotine also are considered drugs. When you're addicted, you may continue using the drug despite the harm it causes."

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/drug-addiction/symptoms-causes/syc-20365112

Either way, to pick up smoking cigarettes is to put the self above everyone else.

Mhmm. you can keep telling yourself that nonsense, just don'y expect anyone else to believe it.

 

[Houseman]

* smoking* as is in cigarettes* isn't a traditional part of our culture

Again, please excuse me for confusing the two, as you did not specify.

Mhmm. you can keep telling yourself that nonsense, just don'y expect anyone else to believe it.

You actually disagree with the statement that smoking is a selfish thing to do, in that it damages yourself and the people around you? You, who would have an asthma attack, if anyone were to smoke around you? You think it's nonsense that they're putting themselves and their wants/needs over your NEED TO BREATHE?

I mean, sure, you can say that addiction is a disease and that they have little or no control over their actions despite, you know, the fact that people can and do decide, on their own, to stop smoking, which, according to you, they shouldn't possibly be able to do, but whatever.

But what about the decision to pick up that first cigarette? You can't say that they're diseased then, can you?

EDIT: For some reason I couldn't edit in that bit about deciding to stop smoking if was contained in parentheses, I tried multiple times. But once I removed the parentheses, it let me post it. Weird.

 

[lil devils x]

Again, please excuse me for confusing the two, as you did not specify.



You actually disagree with the statement that smoking is a selfish thing to do, in that it damages yourself and the people around you? You, who would have an asthma attack, if anyone were to smoke around you? You think it's nonsense that they're putting themselves and their wants/needs over your NEED TO BREATHE?

I mean, sure, you can say that addiction is a disease and that they have little or no control over their actions despite, you know, the fact that people can and do decide, on their own, to stop smoking, which, according to you, they shouldn't possibly be able to do, but whatever.

But what about the decision to pick up that first cigarette? You can't say that they're diseased then, can you?

EDIT: For some reason I couldn't edit in that bit about deciding to stop smoking if was contained in parentheses, I tried multiple times. But once I removed the parentheses, it let me post it. Weird.

I see addiction as something they do not necessarily control, It is a disease. My brother has suffered with depression and addiction for a long time and has not ever recovered from the abuse he suffered at the school. When I said that other family members had it worse than I did, I was specifically thinking of him. I do not blame him for the torture he endured and his difficulty in managing his recovery or his addiction that developed as a result. Of course I do not blame him for any of that. His depression and PTSD is why he picked up that first cigarette.

 

[Houseman]

Of course I do not blame him for any of that. His depression and PTSD is why he picked up that first cigarette.

Okay, next excuse every other Hopi person that decides to start smoking. Just kidding, that's an impossible task. But that's actually what you would have to do if you want to refute the claim that a good communist does not (start to) smoke.

As long as there are Hopi anarcho-communists that decide to smoke, of their own free will and with soundness of mind, then that proves the point that human nature will choose self-interest over communal benefit. That's my only point.

 

[lil devils x]

Okay, next excuse every other Hopi person that decides to start smoking. Just kidding, that's an impossible task. But that's actually what you would have to do if you want to refute the claim that a good communist does not (start to) smoke.

As long as there are Hopi anarcho-communists that decide to smoke, of their own free will and with soundness of mind, then that proves the point that human nature will choose self-interest over communal benefit. That's my only point.

You think that's a point? XD
I hope you have other points because that does not really seem like a point at all. That is not how scientific method works. No wonder you had problems in biology.

 

[Cheetodust]

That is all irrelevant, because we were not discussing your situation now, we were discussing your situation then.

Back then, you did not live by communist ideals, and lived in favor of self-interest, is that true?



So then they are not living by communist ideals and live in favor of self-interest, because otherwise, they would not smoke because it would be in your best interest, should they ever be around you.

Actually, that's a good, possibly better microcosm of the whole "communism vs human nature" thing right there. Ignore everything else above. Not smoking is better for the entire group, as smoking leads to increased health issues and therefore puts more strain on the hospitals or their equivalent, as well as harms certain individuals like you. Smoking itself is antithetical to your type of communism which is: "that we take care of everyone and all things and put all else before self". Smoking puts the self above all others. And yet, your culture smokes. Why? Human nature?

Should a good communist smoke?

This is just more "if it's not perfect why bother?" bullshit rhetoric. Nobody's perfect. Nobody's being asked to be perfect. We are all going to do things that aren't beneficial to the community. We would like you to limit that harm and do your best but yeah, we're all human and some degree of selfishness is going to occur but that doesn't mean we should go with the system where selfishness and greed are rewarded. Maybe living in a society that glorifies greed and selfishness might be exacerbating the situation. Everyone expects anarchists, communists and socialists to be totally morally pure otherwise they're undermining their whole belief system and it's stupid. The logic of "Oh you hate capitalism but you have a smartphone." Isn't clever.

And it's not even a counter to communism. If human nature means we're all self-interested assholes who will hurt each other at the drop of the hat then a system where a small few have all of the power to harm people on a global scale isn't the better system. A system that makes it harder for people to be exploited and abused would bemore of a solution than just steering into the exploitation and abuse.

 

[Cheetodust]

. Your ideals of sharing everything were pushed to the background in favor of self-interest, were they not?

Ah okay, you have an infant's understanding of socialism. Gotcha.

 

[Iron]

Ah okay, you have an infant's understanding of socialism. Gotcha.

no amount of understanding would actually make it work

 

[Cheetodust]

no amount of understanding would actually make it work

Yeah because capitalism is working. Global poverty, mind boggling wealth inequality, stagnating wages, slavery, worker exploitation, food waste skyrocketing while people starve, pollution, global financial crises coming faster and harder, environmental crisis after environmental crisis. This is a good system.

 

[Iron]

Yeah because capitalism is working. Global poverty, mind boggling wealth inequality, stagnating wages, slavery, worker exploitation, food waste skyrocketing while people starve, pollution, global financial crises coming faster and harder, environmental crisis after environmental crisis. This is a good system.

You can talk to me on the internet developed by english and american scientists on a device built in east asia with materials mined in africa.
Yes, it's working great.

 

[Cheetodust]

You can talk to me on the internet developed by english and american scientists on a device built in east asia with materials mined in africa.
Yes, it's working great.

The only people who think it's working great are the extremely few who aren't being crushed by it and don't care that 1/3 of the world's population is living in extreme poverty (and with the bar for "extreme poverty" so low there's a lot more suffering.) Yes, I have a smart phone. I am privileged. I mean, like you know the conditions those materials were mined in and the phones were made in right? Maybe rather than make a handful of people billionaires we could try not exploiting the labour used to create these products? Pay people the value of their labour (congrats with that last sentence you are now one step closer to understanding socialism).

 

[Iron]

The only people who think it's working great are the extremely few who aren't being crushed by it and don't care that 1/3 of the world's population is living in extreme poverty (and with the bar for "extreme poverty" so low there's a lot more suffering.) Yes, I have a smart phone. I am privileged. I mean, like you know the conditions those materials were mined in and the phones were made in right? Maybe rather than make a handful of people billionaires we could try not exploiting the labour used to create these products? Pay people the value of their labour (congrats with that last sentence you are now one step closer to understanding socialism).

I am thankful I don't need to be any steps closer to understanding socialism because I don't live in now-defunct failed states that forced that garbage down the throats of their students. No amount of studying and understanding socialism saved it from failing in the soviet republics. No amount of studying a 150 year old failed economic system would lead to a decrease in extreme poverty, to the contrary, capitalism is the one that is driving extreme poverty down while communism created history's largest slave system (read the gulag archipelago) . The very fact you are not a serf tied to your state-farm, and that you are free to work wherever you please, and buy food imported from elsewhere while there is a drought in your region - and not starve to death - is an indication that free trade and capitalism are superior.

You are privileged. Ireland would have remained a poor backwater had it not been for capitalism. It shares its wealth with the less fortunate, quite famously so, yet it only gives a pittance. Allowing the people who live in a lower standard of living than you to rise above, in a closed system, would mean that you'd give up on your comforts of life. I've yet seen people that give away their apartments and houses to refugees and choose to live on the street.

 

[Cheetodust]

I am thankful I don't need to be any steps closer to understanding socialism because I don't live in now-defunct failed states that forced that garbage down the throats of their students. No amount of studying and understanding socialism saved it from failing in the soviet republics. No amount of studying a 150 year old failed economic system would lead to a decrease in extreme poverty, to the contrary, capitalism is the one that is driving extreme poverty down while communism created history's largest slave system (read the gulag archipelago) . The very fact you are not a serf tied to your state-farm, and that you are free to work wherever you please, and buy food imported from elsewhere while there is a drought in your region - and not starve to death - is an indication that free trade and capitalism are superior.

You are privileged. Ireland would have remained a poor backwater had it not been for capitalism. It shares its wealth with the less fortunate, quite famously so, yet it only gives a pittance. Allowing the people who live in a lower standard of living than you to rise above, in a closed system, would mean that you'd give up on your comforts of life. I've yet seen people that give away their apartments and houses to refugees and choose to live on the street.

Nobody's asking the working class to give up their homes. Their asking the rich to stop exploiting workers around the world and hording wealth.

Gulags are not a requirement for socialism.

America has a for profit prison system that uses prisoners as slave labour and also America before they "outlawed" slavery was built on slavery. Our modern economy is fueled by slave labour across the globe. It doesn't stop being slavery just because it happens far away. If your argument against socialism is "but slavery" then you're ignoring the reality that capitalism is built on it.

Capitalism "drives extreme poverty down" by saying anyone earning more than $1.25 a day isn't living in extreme poverty and even misrepresenting what $1.25 a day even means.

I am not free to work wherever I please that's a myth. Location, exploitative notice periods from employers, a pandemic.

I'm not tied to my farm? Sure but I also earn about 2.5 times what i did 8 years ago and pay 3 times what I used to in rent. And if I leave I lose my deposit (about a months salary) and my apartment is considered ridiculously reasonably priced. My one bed apartment costs more than the 5 bedroom house i used to share with my brother and our roommates. And my country has more homelessness now than when we were a third world shit hole because at least when we were a third world shit hole we had a functioning social housing program.

According to people in these forums the whole famine was a mishap of laissez faire capitalism. Over production and needless waste (and global warming) are the causes of many droughts and famines and capitalism is the root cause of all of them. Again I live in a privileged country. Many many more don't and when they go through droughts they don't import food from other countries, they starve while being exploited and their resources are exported in the name of capitalism. Capitalism works if you are one of the privileged few not being exploited to death and only being first world exploited.
Most people are far far worse off than you and I. A tiny handful of people own the gdp of reasonably sized countries. They didn't get this from the value of production. They got it through exploitation.

 

[Houseman]

That is not how scientific method works.

I... Don't see what that scientific method has to do with whether or not a good communist should smoke. I'm pretty sure that's entirely in the area of philosophy.

 

[MrCalavera]

You can talk to me on the internet developed by english and american scientists on a device built in east asia with materials mined in africa.
Yes, it's working great.

Would never take you for a neo-liberal.