FBI Deals Out Major Online Poker Sites

[superbatranger]

I realize the company I work for is quite similar to these sites. Makes me wonder if something like that will happen where I work.

 

[UnnDunn]

Have you ever actually been to Vegas? It doesn't sound as if you ever have. It you do ever go, check out Bally's. They offer both house-dealer poker table game and poker games where you play against only the other players (i.e., not the house-dealer) and poker tournaments. As do most all the other casinos on the Strip. https://www.ballyslasvegas.com/casinos/ballys-las-vegas/casino-gambling/poker-detail.html and https://www.ballyslasvegas.com/casinos/ballys-las-vegas/casino-gambling/table-games-detail.html In fact, there's not much of anything that you can place a bet on that isn't available in Vegas. You can bet on the coin-toss (heads or tails) that starts a football game. And then bet on the actual game. Ya gotta love it!!

But I prefer the Palms to Bally's. The chicks there are way hotter than the chicks at Bally's (who tend to be a little too old for my tastes). Plus, I've got VIP at the Palms' Playboy Club.

I haven't been to Vegas, but I have been to Atlantic City, and I know exactly the kind of poker you are talking about (Ultimate Hold'em, etc.) Those games are NOT what these sites offer. These sites offer player-to-player poker with the house taking a rake or an entry fee. Frankly I'm not quite sure how table-game poker even entered the discussion.

 

[JDKJ]

And now for kicking the hornet's nest a little:

Poker is a game of skill. Yes, it has a 'luck of the draw' factor, but so does Scrabble, Magic The Gathering, Uno, Monopoly and dozens of other games that rely on dice rolls or random card draws. No-one would argue those games are games of luck.

I think poker is a game of luck, as is Magic, Uno, not so sure about Monopoly. Hang on! Bear with me for a sec! Not sure if someone has mentioned this before, but after three pages full of Poker and Casino technicisms I'm not sure wether if I can look up this specific part. What I want to say is, that yeah, Poker is a game of luck. You shuffle cards, give'em to players. Of course, you can kinda sorta control the game if you track cards, but at the end of the day you get dealt 5 random cards. Note "RANDOM". And yeah, you can discard them and pick new cards. Which are also random.

Magic the Gathering is less random because you can build your deck, and by doing so you still can control what and what you will not get each turn in a loose sense, but you still depend on which card you'll get dealt from your deck which has a minimum size requirement so the random factor is still relevant for the players. You can play with all the skill you want, but luck can mess up your game entirely. That's what I call a luck game.

"So, Kilgen," I'd like to imagine someone will ask. "by your definition every activity depends on luck, right?" Well, yeah. In a sense. But the more control you have over your actions, the less luck is involved. You can always break an ankle before the right game or botch a kick, but by training, discipline and self control a professional sportsman can have more chance of winning, so the luck factor is still there, but can be considered more skilled than lucky, so to speak. Poker can be made more technical or less (usually by adding or substracting rounds/rules), but as long as we're talking about a Texas Hold'em with only one discard, I'd definitely say it's really about luck.

There's no such thing as luck. You gotta know when to hold 'em, know to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run.

You never count your money while your sittin' at the table, there'll be time enough for countin' when the dealing's done.

 

[JDKJ]

Have you ever actually been to Vegas? It doesn't sound as if you ever have. It you do ever go, check out Bally's. They offer both house-dealer poker table game and poker games where you play against only the other players (i.e., not the house-dealer) and poker tournaments. As do most all the other casinos on the Strip. https://www.ballyslasvegas.com/casinos/ballys-las-vegas/casino-gambling/poker-detail.html and https://www.ballyslasvegas.com/casinos/ballys-las-vegas/casino-gambling/table-games-detail.html In fact, there's not much of anything that you can place a bet on that isn't available in Vegas. You can bet on the coin-toss (heads or tails) that starts a football game. And then bet on the actual game. Ya gotta love it!!

But I prefer the Palms to Bally's. The chicks there are way hotter than the chicks at Bally's (who tend to be a little too old for my tastes). Plus, I've got VIP at the Palms' Playboy Club.

I haven't been to Vegas, but I have been to Atlantic City, and I know exactly the kind of poker you are talking about (Ultimate Hold'em, etc.) Those games are NOT what these sites offer. These sites offer player-to-player poker with the house taking a rake or an entry fee.

But that's not what I was talkin' about when I said "when you play against a house, like a Vegas casino . . . ." In the games you're talking about, like a poker tournament, skill plays a role, therefore those are games of skill. In the games I'm talking about, like Caribbean Stud, the house has an edge that skill can never overcome and, therefore, those games are games of chance.

That's why I've been saying that "venue" (i.e., where you're playing and against whom) is all-important. It determines whether the poker game is one of skill or chance.

 

[UnnDunn]

But that's not what I was talkin' about when I said "when you play against a house, like a Vegas casino . . . ." In the games you're talking about, like a poker tournament, skill plays a role, therefore they are games of skill. In the games I'm talking about, like Caribbean Stud, the house has an edge that skill can never overcome and, therefore, those games are of chance.

And I'm saying I don't know how that's relevant, because the poker sites that were targeted do not offer those games.

 

[JDKJ]

But that's not what I was talkin' about when I said "when you play against a house, like a Vegas casino . . . ." In the games you're talking about, like a poker tournament, skill plays a role, therefore they are games of skill. In the games I'm talking about, like Caribbean Stud, the house has an edge that skill can never overcome and, therefore, those games are of chance.

And I'm saying I don't know how that's relevant, because the poker sites that were targeted do not offer those games.

Because I got into a long, drawn out debate with someone who tried to tell me that poker is always a game of skill and skill can overcome the house's edge. Which made no sense to me because I know that the house's edge is designed to negate the player's skill. You could be as skilled as skilled can be, you ain't ever beatin' the edge. Not unless you straight-up cheat.

 

[Kilgengoor]

There's no such thing as luck. You gotta know when to hold 'em, know to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run.

You never count your money while your sittin' at the table, there'll be time enough for countin' when the dealing's done.

Whenever you deal the cards, every player is theoretically as likely to get a good or a bad hand, thus it is a 100% random call. You can, in principle, win one time, two in a row, all night or never, it's as random as it gets. Sure there's the face-reading and the bluffing and the smirks and all that poker stuff, but you are playing over cards which are dealt randomly. Without the I-raise-I-see-it-okay-I-was-bluffing part of a round you could still play poker just try and get a good hand and win or lose based on that. It would be a terribly retarded brand of poker, but I bet (HA!) there are millionaires somewhere in the world playing a game of texas hold'em with all the cards facing down right now.

However, if you take away the random factor, the poker mechanic would be totally broken. That's how I determined Poker is more luck-dependant than say, playing football. You can minimize the losses by folding and manage your resources accordingly, but then again there are mechanisms to force an end for the game (the starting bets for one), so everything boils down to whoever gets the better cards (or rather knows how to play them) over the course of the game, that is to say, is the luckier player.

 

[JDKJ]

There's no such thing as luck. You gotta know when to hold 'em, know to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run.

You never count your money while your sittin' at the table, there'll be time enough for countin' when the dealing's done.

Whenever you deal the cards, every player is theoretically as likely to get a good or a bad hand, thus it is a 100% random call. You can, in principle, win one time, two in a row, all night or never, it's as random as it gets. Sure there's the face-reading and the bluffing and the smirks and all that poker stuff, but you are playing over cards which are dealt randomly. Without the I-raise-I-see-it-okay-I-was-bluffing part of a round you could still play poker just try and get a good hand and win or lose based on that. It would be a terribly retarded brand of poker, but I bet (HA!) there are millionaires somewhere in the world playing a game of texas hold'em with all the cards facing down right now.

However, if you take away the random factor, the poker mechanic would be totally broken. That's how I determined Poker is more luck-dependant than say, playing football.

Not put to words in your mouth you're not saying, but it sounds like the game you're describing is one of chance (which is kinda a synonym for "luck") more than one of skill. No?

 

[UnnDunn]

But that's not what I was talkin' about when I said "when you play against a house, like a Vegas casino . . . ." In the games you're talking about, like a poker tournament, skill plays a role, therefore they are games of skill. In the games I'm talking about, like Caribbean Stud, the house has an edge that skill can never overcome and, therefore, those games are of chance.

And I'm saying I don't know how that's relevant, because the poker sites that were targeted do not offer those games.

Because I got into a long, drawn out debate with someone who tried to tell me that poker is always a game of skill and skill can overcome the house's edge. Which made no sense to me because I know that the house's edge is designed to negate the player's skill. You could be as skilled as skilled can be, you ain't ever beatin' the edge. Not unless you straight-up cheat.

Ah, gotcha.

 

[Kilgengoor]

Not put to words in your mouth you're not saying, but it sounds like the game you're describing is one of chance (which is kinda a synonym for "luck") than a game of skill. No?

Aye. What I wanted to remark is that Poker, like a lot of other card-dice-etcetera has a really strong chance factor, and by doing that I tried to give my opinion on Unndunn's post while jumping in this discussion. To sum up, while there is a lot of talented players who know how to manage their way through the hands of a game of poker, these websites offered a service in which one person puts money to play something quite a lot random, which I'd say is something akin to gambling and thus potentially dangerous thing for themselves. There are casinos for that, last thing these games should do is to be more accessible to people who at least would be subjected to some kind of control in a real life gambling place.

And there's the illegal activities, but I'm from a country famous for its banks and lawyers and famous people investing in there, so I'm not going to jump on that.

 

[JDKJ]

But that's not what I was talkin' about when I said "when you play against a house, like a Vegas casino . . . ." In the games you're talking about, like a poker tournament, skill plays a role, therefore they are games of skill. In the games I'm talking about, like Caribbean Stud, the house has an edge that skill can never overcome and, therefore, those games are of chance.

And I'm saying I don't know how that's relevant, because the poker sites that were targeted do not offer those games.

Because I got into a long, drawn out debate with someone who tried to tell me that poker is always a game of skill and skill can overcome the house's edge. Which made no sense to me because I know that the house's edge is designed to negate the player's skill. You could be as skilled as skilled can be, you ain't ever beatin' the edge. Not unless you straight-up cheat.

Ah, gotcha.

And I didn't mean to get all snarky with you about Vegas but snarky is my default value. Can't help myself.

And the only real difference between A.C and Vegas is that in A.C., the hookers have to walk up and down the main drag while in Vegas, they let them sit at the casino's bars. Other than that, same thing.

 

[UnnDunn]

Not put to words in your mouth you're not saying, but it sounds like the game you're describing is one of chance (which is kinda a synonym for "luck") than a game of skill. No?

Aye. What I wanted to remark is that Poker, like a lot of other card-dice-etcetera has a really strong chance factor, and by doing that I tried to give my opinion on Unndunn's post while jumping in this discussion. To sum up, while there is a lot of talented players who know how to manage their way through the hands of a game of poker, these websites offered a service in which one person puts money to play something quite a lot random, which I'd say is something akin to gambling and thus potentially dangerous thing for themselves. There are casinos for that, last thing these games should do is to be more accessible to people who at least would be subjected to some kind of control in a real life gambling place.

And there's the illegal activities, but I'm from a country famous for its banks and lawyers and famous people investing in there, so I'm not going to jump on that.

FWIW, the poker sites offer tools to enforce responsible play, allowing players to self-impose weekly or monthly deposit limits, time limits, cooldown periods and more.

 

[Kilgengoor]

FWIW, the poker sites offer tools to enforce responsible play, allowing players to self-impose weekly or monthly deposit limits, time limits, cooldown periods and more.

So does WoW, but by being online things become not just easier to do, but more difficult to control. While there are already serious cases of gambling addictions around the world, doing so only makes getting hooked up to playing easier, and thus increases the chance of getting addicted.

(It's my opinion anyway, not that I have a degree on psychology or something)

 

[SenseOfTumour]

Just as it's vaguely relevant, the 'Star Wars Subway' guys, Improv Everywhere pulled a stunt where they rowed a boat out to the middle of a lake in Central Park, then set up a table on the boat and opened the 'offshore Casino'.

http://improveverywhere.com/2002/05/19/offshore-gambling/

Really tho, Poker is a game of luck with skill elements, you can minimise losses and maximise wins, but in the end, the cards are all.

 

[Plurralbles]

It's illegal to gamble online in USA?!

That's a wierd one.

Anyway... so long, suckers!

yeah, the fact pokerstrategy.com sponsors TEam liquid and they have promotions makes it a little goofy cuz' all american starcraft players can't actually have anything to do with them.

 

[JDKJ]

Not put to words in your mouth you're not saying, but it sounds like the game you're describing is one of chance (which is kinda a synonym for "luck") than a game of skill. No?

Aye. What I wanted to remark is that Poker, like a lot of other card-dice-etcetera has a really strong chance factor, and by doing that I tried to give my opinion on Unndunn's post while jumping in this discussion. To sum up, while there is a lot of talented players who know how to manage their way through the hands of a game of poker, these websites offered a service in which one person puts money to play something quite a lot random, which I'd say is something akin to gambling and thus potentially dangerous thing for themselves. There are casinos for that, last thing these games should do is to be more accessible to people who at least would be subjected to some kind of control in a real life gambling place.

And there's the illegal activities, but I'm from a country famous for its banks and lawyers and famous people investing in there, so I'm not going to jump on that.

FWIW, the poker sites offer tools to enforce responsible play, allowing players to self-impose weekly or monthly deposit limits, time limits, cooldown periods and more.

But, unfortunately, if you are a degenerate gambler, you ain't likely to be very good at imposing limits on yourself. It's precisely because you can't impose limits on yourself that you're a degenerate gamble.

 

[ObsessiveSketch]

wooo! 3 billion more to help pay off our debt!! Of course, it barely helps, but IT'S STILL SOMETHING, DAMMIT.

 

[2012 Wont Happen]

Fuck anti-gambling laws. Don't get me wrong, I wish that we didn't have the Capitalist system that facilitates gambling being a thing, but if we are going to have a "free market" let people do what they want with the money they have. One thing that above all else I cannot tolerate in a system of laws is inconsistency, and that is exactly what anti-gambling laws are when you have a free market system.

 

[Therumancer]

FUnny that poker is considered pure luck but lotteries are allowed to be run by states, this is just another power grab by the feds, while poker in whatever form has a decided bit of luck involved, there is certainly a good bit of skill also certainly more skill then dropping 10 20 50 dollars in lottery tickets and hope to get lucky by getting the right numbers.

Lest on these sites you cna play purely for free and are not required to put money in or play for real money. If they had every noob that shows up to play put money in then i would see a problem but you can learn exactly what is invoved in poker by playing for free so there it is a bit laughable that you can claim people do not know the risks involved in poker or any game of chance, poker has a distinct advantage of lest weighing your risk vs reward vs many other games of chance.

Well, the "run by states" part is the big clincher.

What a lot of people don't "get" about regulations on vice is that in a lot of cases it's not about the activity itself, but what tends to go with it. Gambling by it's very nature is VERY difficult to police, and leads to all manner of scams being run by "the house" and of course predatory loan sharking, and all kinds of similar things. People can deny what goes on around gambling, but as someone who worked in security for TWO differant world class casinos for a decade or so, I can say that the garbage that goes with gambling is pervasive and even legitimizing it as much as possible you can't keep the rot away.

Poker isn't really a game of skill, as some people have pointed out, no matter how well you understand probabilities there is still a massive element of chance. What's more, it's a VERY easy game to exploit in terms of using shills, proposition players, and similar techniques, especially online. A lot of the risk of running an online poker business can be mitigated by just having people, or bots, playing in risky games using the house's money to begin with to greatly increase the odds of the money being taken by the house as opposed to one of the actual players.

It's sort of like prostitution, on the surface you can argue that it's reasonable for someone to decide what to do with their own body. However when you start getting into the nature of those kinds of services, disagreements over payment, providing when and if services were rendered in a satisfactory fashion, and of course the societal pressures around the idea of sex and these ladies operating openly and what they do being known, combined with the desire on the part of clients for secrecy, and everything else, it creates massive messes that go beyond the central issue involved.

With things like a state lottery, we have the authorities themselves running things, and tons of watchdog groups keeping an eye on it from a lot of differant directions. It's a far differant situation than what you see in a casino, or people running back room poker games.

Another example of an exception besides the lotteries is of course racing, horse and dog tracks are run legitimatly all over the country. Due to the nessicary scale of the operations, it makes them relatively easy to keep an eye on. However at the same time, those kinds of establishments DO become hotbeds of criminal activitity even with those eyes on them, especially in terms of things like loan sharking. As a result there is a lot of pressure in places to have them shut down.

With the state lotto, it's largely beyond criticism because really, there is little you can do around it other than try and find a way to rig the game itself. Nobody is going to run a loan sharking or book keeping operation around lottery tickets. There just isn't enough of an investment on the part of the individual players.