FBI Deals Out Major Online Poker Sites

[JDKJ]

You can't win against a 5% edge.

What don't you understand about the FACT that there are people who win so often they are banned? They have skill and they 'beat' the house and its 'edge', so they are banned.

Don't take the casino's decision to ban them as meaning in any way that they are certain to win over the long haul. If the casino has a 5% edge, then they could have decided to play against them over the long haul and over the long haul, they will win. It's a 5% edge. You can't beat that with any amount of skill. No way, no how.

 

[JDKJ]

You can't win against a 5% edge.

What don't you understand about the FACT that there are people who win so often they are banned? They have skill and they 'beat' the house and its 'edge', so they are banned.

Don't take the casino's decision to ban them as meaning in any way that they are certain to win over the long haul. If the casino has a 5% edge, then they could have decided to play against them over the long haul and over the long haul, they will win. It's a 5% edge. You can't beat that with any amount skill. No way, no how.

You are stating this 'unbeatable 5% edge' over and over without providing any evidence to its supposed indestructibility. In fact, all anyone has to go off for your argument of 'it is impossible to beat the house' is "You can't beat that with any amount skill. No way, no how." No research. No sources. No peer-reviewed studies. Nothing.

As this is how you wish to debate (without using facts to support your stand and asserting your opinion is a fact, despite the aforementioned inability to prove it beyond your fervent pleas) I shall no longer discuss this with you.

Ciao.

It's a provable mathematical fact. A 5% edge means that if you play 100 hands of poker against the casino, the casino is certain to win at least 55 of those hands to your 45 hands. That's what the edge ensures. What else is there to prove? It's simple mathematics. Like 2 + 2 = 4 because 4 - 2 = 2.

And do you think the casinos just invent their own edges? That shit is regulated by state gaming commissions. Just like a slot machine is rigged by an "edge" to pay out less than it takes in (by ensuring that it turns up winning combinations only in so many spins of its wheels) is regulated by the gaming commissions. You think Steve Wynn ended up a billionaire by pulling faulty math outta his ass?

 

[Xanthious]

A) Because when you play against a house, like a Vegas casino, the house has structured the game so that is has an advantage to them called an "edge" (in some poker games the "edge" is as much as 5%). This means that over time and if you play against the house long enough and no matter how skilled you are at poker, you will, over time, lose to them. You can bet on that (pun intended). You may win big today, but if you come back tomorrow and continue playing, eventually the house will win back its money plus some of yours. It's bound to happen as a matter of probabilities because of the "edge." If the casinos didn't structure their games like that, then there would be absolutely no guarantee that they wouldn't go broke within a year of opening their doors because players won more from them than they took in from players. And the house ain't in the business of going broke. They're in the business of taking money away from players.

Therefore, playing poker against the house is a game of chance. No matter how skilled you are at playing poker, there isn't a thing you can do to stop the inevitable outcome that over time the house will win and you will lose.

Unless you're playing some carnival type table game like Caribbean Stud or Let It Ride or some such thing all live poker games at the casino are not played against the house. The house makes it's money off of a rake where it takes a very small portion of each pot (typically 5% or less). Those that do not take a rake per pot simply charge a seat fee where you pay a fee every hour to the casino to play at their tables. However, despite the rake or seat fee, you are playing against other people, not the house.

There are people that make money week in and week out at casinos and are repeatedly welcomed back. In a live game of poker (Hold em, 7 Card Stud, Omaha, etc) at any casino the casino has zero vested interest over who wins and who loses. They get paid all the same. There is no house edge at a live game of casino poker. There is only a rake per pot and that is common in any typical game of poker. I've even been to home games that take a rake to pay for food and beverages.

Now if you are talking table games like Black Jack, Caribbean Stud, Let it Ride, Craps, Pai Gow, Three Card Poker, Red Dog, Baccarat, etc then there is always a house edge that fluctuates as high as 20+% on some games to as low as 1%. These are the games that can not be won over the long term. However, live poker, can and is profitable for many regardless of the venue you play at. The only difference between a home game of poker and a game of poker at a casino is typically there is a dedicated dealer and the chairs and table are a lot nicer.

 

[JDKJ]

A) Because when you play against a house, like a Vegas casino, the house has structured the game so that is has an advantage to them called an "edge" (in some poker games the "edge" is as much as 5%). This means that over time and if you play against the house long enough and no matter how skilled you are at poker, you will, over time, lose to them. You can bet on that (pun intended). You may win big today, but if you come back tomorrow and continue playing, eventually the house will win back its money plus some of yours. It's bound to happen as a matter of probabilities because of the "edge." If the casinos didn't structure their games like that, then there would be absolutely no guarantee that they wouldn't go broke within a year of opening their doors because players won more from them than they took in from players. And the house ain't in the business of going broke. They're in the business of taking money away from players.

Therefore, playing poker against the house is a game of chance. No matter how skilled you are at playing poker, there isn't a thing you can do to stop the inevitable outcome that over time the house will win and you will lose.

Unless you're playing some carnival type table game like Caribbean Stud or Let It Ride or some such thing all live poker games at the casino are not played against the house. The house makes it's money off of a rake where it takes a small portion of each pot. However, despite the rake, you are playing against other people, not the house.

There are people that make money week in and week out at casinos and are repeatedly welcomed back. In a live game of poker (Hold em, 7 Card Stud, Omaha, etc) at any casino the casino has zero vested interest over who wins and who loses. They get paid all the same. There is no house edge at a live game of casino poker. There is only a rake per pot and that is common in any typical game of poker. I've even been to home games that take a rake to pay for food and beverages.

Now if you are talking table games like Black Jack, Caribbean Stud, Let it Ride, Craps, Pai Gow, Three Card Poker, Red Dog, Baccarat, etc then there is always a house edge that fluctuates as high as 20+% on some games to as low as 1%. These are the games that can not be won over the long term. However, live poker, can and is profitable for many regardless of the venue you play at. The only difference between a home game of poker and a game of poker at a casino is typically there is a dedicated dealer and the chairs and table are a lot nicer.

Don't confuse "tournaments" that the casinos host and take a cut thereof with poker tables where you sit and play against a house dealer and the casino relies on a the buit-in edge to beat you. Both are generally available in Las Vegas and Reno, and Los Angeles, etc., etc., etc. And you bet that there is some mechanism built into the table game that ensures the casino has an edge. If there was no edge, the casino would risk losing 100% of all hand played and there's no way they'd take that risk. Every casino game and slot machine and video poker machine, etc., etc., has an edge built in to it or the casino wouldn't be fucking with it. If there's no edge in a casino game, there's no way that the casino can ensure that it doesn't lose 100% of the time.

 

[Xanthious]

Don't confuse "tournaments" that the casinos host and take a cut thereof with poker tables where you sit and play against a house dealer and the casino relies on a the buit-in edge to beat you. Both are generally available in Las Vegas and Reno, and Los Angeles, etc., etc., etc.

I'm not. You can go to most any casino and find a "poker room" that hosts live games of poker where you play against other people for real money. In NONE of those games of live poker where you compete against other people do you ever play against the house.

The games you compete against the house at are called table games. They are typically gimmicky carnival type games that have a house edge.

 

[JDKJ]

Don't confuse "tournaments" that the casinos host and take a cut thereof with poker tables where you sit and play against a house dealer and the casino relies on a the buit-in edge to beat you. Both are generally available in Las Vegas and Reno, and Los Angeles, etc., etc., etc.

I'm not. You can go to most any casino and find a live game of poker where you play against other people for real money. In NONE of those games of live poker where you compete against other people do you ever play against the house.

The games you compete against the house at are called table games. They are typically gimmicky carnival type games that have a house edge.

And the casino don't care about the poker games were you play against other players. There's zero risk to them in those games. If you win big, you ain't winning their money. You're wining money from the other players. But the "carnival" table games they do certainly care about. That's their money on the line. Hence, the edge.

And Caribbean Stud, since you mentioned it, has a 5% edge in Vegas. Play 100 games of it against the dealer and the absolute best that you will ever do is that the dealer will win 55 of those games and you will only win 45. That's how the casino makes it risk-free. You are certain to lose more games than you win. No matter how much skill you have.

EDIT: Forgive me. It took me a while to figure out that we were both saying the same thing. I was in "defensive" mode. My bad.

 

[captain underpants]

The fucking Fun Police strike again.

 

[JDKJ]

Don't confuse "tournaments" that the casinos host and take a cut thereof with poker tables where you sit and play against a house dealer and the casino relies on a the buit-in edge to beat you. Both are generally available in Las Vegas and Reno, and Los Angeles, etc., etc., etc.

I'm not. You can go to most any casino and find a live game of poker where you play against other people for real money. In NONE of those games of live poker where you compete against other people do you ever play against the house.

The games you compete against the house at are called table games. They are typically gimmicky carnival type games that have a house edge.

And the casino don't care about the poker games were you play against other players. There's zero risk to them in those games. If you win big, you ain't winning their money. You're wining money from the other players. But the "carnival" table games they do certainly care about. That's their money on the line. Hence, the edge.

And Caribbean Stud, since you mentioned it, has a 5% edge in Vegas. Play 100 games of it against the dealer and the absolute best that you will ever do is that the dealer will win 55 of those games and you will only win 45. That's how the casino makes it risk-free. You are certain to lose more games than you win. No matter how much skill you have.

EDIT: Forgive me. It took me a while to figure out that we were both saying the same thing. I was in "defensive" mode. My bad.

And, FYI, the edge in that silly-ass Keno game that they pipe into you hotel room television is close to 30%. You might as well just throw that lil' Keno card away and, instead, just hand your money over to them.

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

This far in without a Lady Gaga joke? *Shrugs*

Spoiler

OT: Not a fan of poker, as I cannot bluff well.
If they did break the law, they should be punished.

 

[samsonguy920]

I've been wondering how those sites have been operating legitimately. Turns out that they haven't. And who is surprised that there were banks willing to aid them? Not I.

As I read the article and as I opened this comments section, I noticed that the advert bars were for 888 Bingo.

I've never understood how gambling sites seem to INCREASE in a recession. How does that even work?

People tight on their bills are still suckers to gamble it away. I don't see gambling being bad in itself, but poor judgement on people with better things to do with their money makes it look all the worse.

 

[samsonguy920]

You're welcome.

I played that vid, and lo and behold an ad for Full Tilt Poker pops up. Thank you for adding the chance of irony to your point.

 

[ThePeaceFrog]

Team America, World Police.

 

[UnnDunn]

A) Because when you play against a house, like a Vegas casino, the house has structured the game so that is has an advantage to them called an "edge" (in some poker games the "edge" is as much as 5%). This means that over time and if you play against the house long enough and no matter how skilled you are at poker, you will, over time, lose to them. You can bet on that (pun intended). You may win big today, but if you come back tomorrow and continue playing, eventually the house will win back its money plus some of yours. It's bound to happen as a matter of probabilities because of the "edge." If the casinos didn't structure their games like that, then there would be absolutely no guarantee that they wouldn't go broke within a year of opening their doors because players won more from them than they took in from players. And the house ain't in the business of going broke. They're in the business of taking money away from players.

Therefore, playing poker against the house is a game of chance. No matter how skilled you are at playing poker, there isn't a thing you can do to stop the inevitable outcome that over time the house will win and you will lose.

You don't play poker against the house. Poker is the only casino game in which you don't play against the house, but rather against other players. The house makes money by taking a cut of every pot (known as the rake) in cash games, or charging an entry fee for tournaments.

 

[UnnDunn]

Poker is a game of skill? Right. And i possess eight ten meter long prehensile dicks.

Poker is a game of skill. Yes, it has a 'luck of the draw' factor, but so does Scrabble, Magic The Gathering, Uno, Monopoly and dozens of other games that rely on dice rolls or random card draws. No-one would argue those games are games of luck.

 

[JDKJ]

A) Because when you play against a house, like a Vegas casino, the house has structured the game so that is has an advantage to them called an "edge" (in some poker games the "edge" is as much as 5%). This means that over time and if you play against the house long enough and no matter how skilled you are at poker, you will, over time, lose to them. You can bet on that (pun intended). You may win big today, but if you come back tomorrow and continue playing, eventually the house will win back its money plus some of yours. It's bound to happen as a matter of probabilities because of the "edge." If the casinos didn't structure their games like that, then there would be absolutely no guarantee that they wouldn't go broke within a year of opening their doors because players won more from them than they took in from players. And the house ain't in the business of going broke. They're in the business of taking money away from players.

Therefore, playing poker against the house is a game of chance. No matter how skilled you are at playing poker, there isn't a thing you can do to stop the inevitable outcome that over time the house will win and you will lose.

You don't play poker against the house. Poker is the only casino game in which you don't play against the house, but rather against other players. The house makes money by taking a cut of every pot (known as the rake) in cash games, or charging an entry fee for tournaments.

Have you ever actually been to Vegas? It doesn't sound as if you ever have. It you do ever go, check out Bally's. They offer both house-dealer poker table game and poker games where you play against only the other players (i.e., not the house-dealer) and poker tournaments. As do most all the other casinos on the Strip. https://www.ballyslasvegas.com/casinos/ballys-las-vegas/casino-gambling/poker-detail.html and https://www.ballyslasvegas.com/casinos/ballys-las-vegas/casino-gambling/table-games-detail.html In fact, there's not much of anything that you can place a bet on that isn't available in Vegas. You can bet on the coin-toss (heads or tails) that starts a football game. And then bet on the actual game. Ya gotta love it!!

But I prefer the Palms to Bally's. The chicks there are way hotter than the chicks at Bally's (who tend to be a little too old for my tastes). Plus, I've got VIP at the Palms' Playboy Club.

 

[Kilgengoor]

Sorry to interrupt you guys, but just a quick news flash: As for the moment (2:33 AM GMT +1) Full Tilt Poker's [http://www.fultiltpoker.com] website won't load and Absolute's [http://www.absolutepoker.com/] been closed by the FBI. Pokerstars' [http://www.pokerstars.com/] however remains up and active, and I found no traces of any kind of notice on the front page.

Y'now, I like poker. I have played it once or twice and I find it fun and all, but I've never been into online play, because I just find the idea of someone as unlucky and retarded as me not losing his skin at gambling (Or playing with skill. I'll leave the debate to you guys) simply preposterous.

But you know what? After passing in front of bars where there's always someone wasting tens of euros away on a slot machine (big hobby here in Spain) or playing lottery or betting on wether Cristiano Ronaldo will score his next goal with his left or right foot (and there are webs that allow that level of retardedness) I'm happy to know that another money sinkhole's been put off the internet. I'd be happy with it if people just paid a monthly fee and didn't get winnings, but then nobody would play it. Greed always takes the best out of the human spirit, eh?

In other news I just discovered Magic the Gathering couple of weeks ago. The day I sign up on MtG Online I'm done for, even though you can't bet in there.

 

[JDKJ]

Sorry to interrupt you guys, but just a quick news flash: As for the moment (2:33 AM GMT +1) Full Tilt Poker's [www.fultiltpoker.com] website won't load and Absolute's [http://www.absolutepoker.com/] been closed by the FBI. Pokerstars' [http://www.pokerstars.com/] however remains up and active, and I found no traces of any kind of notice on the front page.

Y'now, I like poker. I have played it once or twice and I find it fun and all, but I've never been into online play, because I just find the idea of someone as unlucky and retarded as me not losing his skin at gambling (Or playing with skill. I'll leave the debate to you guys) simply preposterous.

But you know what? After passing in front of bars where there's always someone wasting tens of euros away on a slot machine (big hobby here in Spain) or playing lottery or betting on wether Cristiano Ronaldo will score his next goal with his left or right foot (and there are webs that allow that level of retardedness) I'm happy to know that another money sinkhole's been put off the internet. I'd be happy with it if people just paid a monthly fee and didn't get winnings, but then nobody would play it. Greed always takes the best out of the human spirit, eh?

In other news I just discovered Magic the Gathering couple of weeks ago. The day I sign up on MtG Online I'm done for. Even without the betting factor.

You raise a point that a lot of posters are overlooking: gambling can be and is a problem for a lot of gamblers. They'll gambling away there kid's college trust fund and next month's mortgage payment if you let them. Posters wanna complain about the "fun police" cracking down again. It ain't all fun and games for some people. For some people, it ruins them financially. You see 'em all the time in Las Vegas. They got that desperate look in their eyes. They're degenerate gamblers.

 

[Kilgengoor]

And now for kicking the hornet's nest a little:

Poker is a game of skill. Yes, it has a 'luck of the draw' factor, but so does Scrabble, Magic The Gathering, Uno, Monopoly and dozens of other games that rely on dice rolls or random card draws. No-one would argue those games are games of luck.

I think poker is a game of luck, as is Magic, Uno, not so sure about Monopoly. Hang on! Bear with me for a sec! Not sure if someone has mentioned this before, but after three pages full of Poker and Casino technicisms I'm not sure wether if I can look up this specific part. What I want to say is, that yeah, Poker is a game of luck. You shuffle cards, give'em to players. Of course, you can kinda sorta control the game if you track cards, but at the end of the day you get dealt 5 random cards. Note "RANDOM". And yeah, you can discard them and pick new cards. Which are also random.

Magic the Gathering is less random because you can build your deck, and by doing so you still can control what and what you will not get each turn in a loose sense, but you still depend on which card you'll get dealt from your deck which has a minimum size requirement so the random factor is still relevant for the players. You can play with all the skill you want, but luck can mess up your game entirely. That's what I call a luck game.

"So, Kilgen," I'd like to imagine someone will ask. "by your definition every activity depends on luck, right?" Well, yeah. In a sense. But the more control you have over your actions, the less luck is involved. You can always break an ankle before the right game or botch a kick, but by training, discipline and self control a professional sportsman can have more chance of winning, so the luck factor is still there, but can be considered more skilled than lucky, so to speak. Poker can be made more technical or less (usually by adding or substracting rounds/rules), but as long as we're talking about a Texas Hold'em with only one discard, I'd definitely say it's really about luck.

 

[Krion_Vark]

It's illegal to gamble online in USA?!

That's a wierd one.

Anyway... so long, suckers!

Its not illegal to gamble online. Its illegal to gamble with REAL money.