Female Game Characters Photoshopped to Average American Proportions

Tilly

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ZiggyE said:
Tifa looks fine for a brawler who lives in obscene poverty.
Lol obscene poverty? She lives in a world where if you kill wild animals, they drop money :)
 

Alar

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Dec 1, 2009
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erttheking said:
Alar said:
I'm sorry. Athletic? Fit? People keep trying to frame criticism against these bodytypes as being anti-healthy body, but that doesn't make any sense. You see, these women have nothing to them. Not just fat, but muscle either. It's especially hair pull inducing when it comes to characters like Tifa and there is not an ounce of muscle to her despite the fact that she's supposed to be a brawler. I want to see muscular women in addition to women who are larger and aren't built like fashion models. Gaming is pretty poor at delivering both of them.
I agree that there need to be more body types, especially more muscled women, but you don't seem to know much about fit or athletic people. If someone runs daily and has a slim body type, that's fit. If they have a slight amount of tone and are at a healthy weight, they're athletic. When you look at that picture of Lara, does she NOT look like she's at a healthy weight with some muscle tone? She's got more than just a runner's physique.
 

Thaluikhain

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Redryhno said:
"Skinnier than AMERICAN average" you mean...which is quite a bit heavier than the rest of the world, and alot of it has to do with our food and preservation methods.
True.

Redryhno said:
And when did I say that fat shaming needed to happen? All I said was self-motivation needed to get to a self-sustaining point. Shaming CAN work with certain people, hell that's what most interventions are based around after all, but it's not a recommended approach at all and I did not even mention it. All I said was that we shouldn't tell people that being quite overweight is a healthy approach to life. So you stop that crap right there.
You said that it wasn't healthy for people to have the mindset that it's ok to have a certain body type (which is average for the American woman). That looks a lot like fat shaming to me, but I might have misread you, in which case I apologise.
 

Erttheking

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Alar said:
erttheking said:
Alar said:
I'm sorry. Athletic? Fit? People keep trying to frame criticism against these bodytypes as being anti-healthy body, but that doesn't make any sense. You see, these women have nothing to them. Not just fat, but muscle either. It's especially hair pull inducing when it comes to characters like Tifa and there is not an ounce of muscle to her despite the fact that she's supposed to be a brawler. I want to see muscular women in addition to women who are larger and aren't built like fashion models. Gaming is pretty poor at delivering both of them.
I agree that there need to be more body types, especially more muscled women, but you don't seem to know much about fit or athletic people. If someone runs daily and has a slim body type, that's fit. If they have a slight amount of tone and are at a healthy weight, they're athletic. When you look at that picture of Lara, does she NOT look like she's at a healthy weight with some muscle tone? She's got more than just a runner's physique.
In your last post you said that " They're fighting, running, climbing, training, carrying, riding, and all other manner of physical activity." Wouldn't that result in just a little bit of muscle?

*Looks at picture* A bit. And she's a massive exception to the trend.
 

Redryhno

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thaluikhain said:
Redryhno said:
"Skinnier than AMERICAN average" you mean...which is quite a bit heavier than the rest of the world, and alot of it has to do with our food and preservation methods.
True.

Redryhno said:
And when did I say that fat shaming needed to happen? All I said was self-motivation needed to get to a self-sustaining point. Shaming CAN work with certain people, hell that's what most interventions are based around after all, but it's not a recommended approach at all and I did not even mention it. All I said was that we shouldn't tell people that being quite overweight is a healthy approach to life. So you stop that crap right there.
You said that it wasn't healthy for people to have the mindset that it's ok to have a certain body type (which is average for the American woman). That looks a lot like fat shaming to me, but I might have misread you, in which case I apologise.
Are you telling me that letting people think being overweight is a good thing? There's alot of delusions going on about fat weight and content the last few years, and I'm sorta sick of seeing the "healthy at every size" crap peddled about.

I agree with what I believe the core concept to be, that of being happy with who you are before you go changing anything and that you change for YOU and not for THEM, but that's not how it's being used most of the time. It's just another excuse to be a lardass without taking responsibility for it.

Again, if anyone wants to be like that, I completely understand and I'm not going to insult them for their informed choices, but there's far too many people that actually think they're healthier simply because of that mantra. Again, much like smokers, they're aware of the risks involved and have made their choices. Not much else you can do.

erttheking said:
Alar said:
erttheking said:
Alar said:
I'm sorry. Athletic? Fit? People keep trying to frame criticism against these bodytypes as being anti-healthy body, but that doesn't make any sense. You see, these women have nothing to them. Not just fat, but muscle either. It's especially hair pull inducing when it comes to characters like Tifa and there is not an ounce of muscle to her despite the fact that she's supposed to be a brawler. I want to see muscular women in addition to women who are larger and aren't built like fashion models. Gaming is pretty poor at delivering both of them.
I agree that there need to be more body types, especially more muscled women, but you don't seem to know much about fit or athletic people. If someone runs daily and has a slim body type, that's fit. If they have a slight amount of tone and are at a healthy weight, they're athletic. When you look at that picture of Lara, does she NOT look like she's at a healthy weight with some muscle tone? She's got more than just a runner's physique.
So they just run now? In your last post you said that " They're fighting, running, climbing, training, carrying, riding, and all other manner of physical activity."

*Looks at picture* A bit. And she's a massive exception to the trend.
I think you want to read his post again. In no way did he say that they were just running, he just gave running as a real world example.
 

Tanis

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Since when was being fat 'Average'.
O, wait, AMERICAN.

Yeah...

Sorry, but as a fat person TRYING to get to a HEALTHY weight...
I don't like stuff like this.

You're not 'plus sized' or 'more lovin' sized' or, whatever.
You're fat.

You need to, like me, eat ONE slice of cake instead of THREE.
-Like I used to.

I mean, seriously, STOP.IDOLIZING.UNHEALTHY.FAT.

I, genuinely, don't get people who think being overweight, or fat, is something to be encouraged.
 

Erttheking

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someguy1231 said:
Uh, they're three games in a world made up of tens of thousands of games. And two of them are stuck in the same genre. Guild Wars 2 isn't even that popular, it only sold 3.5 million copies, which hardly makes it a heavy hitter that can show the opinions of everyone in gaming. And it's probably telling the WoW is slowly losing steam, so it's hardly the king of games that it once was, because people are getting bored and moving on from it. Hell if we're going by sheer numbers we should be taking the mobile market into account. Me pointing out the flaws in your argument is not moving the goalposts. And don't talk about moving the goalposts when I started talking about characters in general and you shifted it to customizable characters only. Your evidence is flimsy at best, especially Skyrim where the only argument you really have is "there are a lot of sexy mods". At least Guild Wars and WoW had numbers (That you didn't cite) Skyrim doesn't even have that, it has circumstantial evidence at best. Yeah pretty much. As it turns out, proving a demand for something exists is infinitely easier than proving that it's superior to all other demands. Because opinions tend to vary from genre to genre and you only included the opinions of MMO players, yet for some reason you kept pulling the "most gamers" card. I don't count Skyrim because of how insubstantial your claims were there.

Could've said the same for you. Deductive reasoning usually requires a lot more solid evidence to go on. "This website has a lot of sexy mods" and "most Skyrim players have sexy characters" aren't really connected provided every single Skyrim player uses that website and downloads the mods out of mandate. And what about female gamers?

Did I say that they didn't? I'm simply pointing out that you can't take the results from a game that's really lost a good chunk of steam over the years and apply it to ALL of gaming.

Oh? The mere existence of a mod proves nothing? Glad we came to an understanding. So the existence of sexy mods prove nothing. (Pick one or the other. Either mods prove a demand for something or they don't, you can't have it both ways)

You know, I don't recall specifically making any arguments about character customization and more about characters in general, not sure why you keep bringing it back to that. And yes, that's what I'm trying to say, specific games have specific audiences, MMOs have their own and those audiences don't speak for all of gaming.

Still seems pretty arbitrary. I mean just because I never went out of my way to customize a black character doesn't mean I wouldn't want to play a game with a black character as a main character.

Like I said above. Just because a person doesn't go out of their way to create a character that doesn't look a certain way, doesn't mean that they would refuse to play a game with a character like that. And question, how many players actually put that much time into customization? I would think a good chunk of them would either randomize their character or go with a default. Hell, most of the time my customization is limited to getting a hairdo and eye color I like.

Hard numbers about WoW and Guild Wars II. Not all gamers. And you keep making claims about "most gamers" despite WoW's fanbase not even making up 10% of gamers, and not sharing the same tastes as all gamers. Because of the constant demand for them that seems to be loud enough to get forums like this one into a frenzy every time it gets brought up? Certainly seems like there's a rather significant demand for it. Question. How many games actually ALLOW you to make fat women? I've played quite a few games where you can customize. Only ever saw it in the Souls series and Dragon's Dogma. Hell, most games don't even let you make muscular women.

I said she looks like she's anorexic, not that she's got the condition. Read what I say. No, I'm not against being corrected, I'm against people being dismisses without base. So if you want to correct me, give me a reason why I'm wrong and don't just say I'm wrong.

Yeah see? Your argument there was "No" and all you had to offer was personal experience. I offered my personal experiences too, how does that make me wrong and you right? And tell me, where those people that you knew IRL supposed to be brawlers, ninjas, mountain climbers, police officers, and soldiers? You know why they look anorexic to me? Because they are way too thin for the jobs they're supposed to be doing, it makes them look unhealthy and unreal. And no, I've run Akali by a female friend in the past, and she also agreed that she looked unhealthily thin. You know, you just kinda declared that without much backing it up.

Considering that a good chunk of these games are single player, I find it questionable that you knew that. Sounds like you're going back to MMOs again, and as I've said many times before, MMOs don't represent gamers as a whole. They represent gamers who like MMOs. Simple. When you make those assumptions, you don't speak for ALL gamers. Say "This type of character is popular among gamers" not it's popular among most gamers" because you can't prove that and it makes it look like you're projecting your views onto gaming as a whole.
 

ThreeName

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We've hit a point where the average women's ideal weight is only four pounds lower than the average women's actual weight 15 years ago.

If you think current body trends are acceptable, that these photoshops represent some sort of "normal" weight range in anything other than the statistical sense, you're so fucking wrong.
 

Redryhno

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ThreeName said:


We've hit a point where the average ideal women's weight is only four pounds lower than the average women's actual weight 15 years ago.

If you think current body trends are acceptable, that these photoshops represent some sort of "normal" weight range in anything other than the statistical sense, you're so fucking wrong.
To be fair, there's not a whole lot wrong with being 140 as a woman, but then again, I grew up with girls that were often equal to the guys in height and so could carry the weight better as well.
 

Karadalis

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"Lets take female characters that do alot of physical straining activities like fighting for their lives every other day and make them look fat.. instead of say trained and athletic"

Yeaaaah... im sorry but just because there are alot of out of shape women out there that feel unsecure about their bodies but dont want to change anything about it doesnt mean that video game characters should suit their tastes.

Not only that but what the fuck has this to do with bad imaginings of women?

Women do not look at Tifa from FF7 and decide to become bulemic.

They look at super models.. REAL people and decide they want to be like them.

In the history of Barbie there have been only a handfull of nutjobs in history that wanted to look like her. Yet there are hundrets and thousands of girls that want to become super models.

Completly barking up the wrong tree and completly cringeworthy shopping of images. The girls could use a bit more muscle but certainly not more fat
 

llubtoille

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It's worth remembering that many of these characters are designed in Japan, a county that has one of the lowest female average BMI in the world (21.7) vs America which has one of the highest (29).
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2301172/Fattest-countries-world-revealed-Extraordinary-graphic-charts-average-body-mass-index-men-women-country-surprising-results.html
 

mad825

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Okay we get. The media has an unrealistic idea of what a human body looks like hence why I don't look like Beef cake G.I Joe.

And yes ffs, females are the only ones effect by this shock shock horror.
 

Mister K

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erttheking said:
Mister K said:
Thank you.

I'm not sure that's how it works. And frankly I don't see how criticizing body types in media or feeling pressured to convert to the norm because of overwhelming pressure (Which is a big problem world wide). And I don't really see what "Always feel the need to be loved" has to do with this. It's more like "Not being judged for not falling in line." Hell, sometimes I'm pressured to play basketball just because I'm call. Society has a lot of uncreative and narrow minded twits who want everything to be nice and static.

I doubt most other countries have concern over the internet being slower, but when that came around in this one just about everyone else jumped on the government for it. And plenty of these things seem stupid, depression seems stupid to people who haven't gone though it. Human beings are a very un-elegant race. (That and I'm pretty sure Belemia exists in other first world countries)

Where is the shaming? All it says about developers is that "They say that they portray everything as hyper-realistic yet seem to struggle with the female body" and they say nothing about players. It's criticizing trends, don't take it so freaking personally.

That's the point me and so many others are trying to get across. When having average weight, a woman can look gorgeous. Standards of unrealistic thinness aren't needed. (Ok fair enough, the photoshops kinda fucked it up. I still think Christie was a massive step towards being realistic though. Not to mention they're chubby at worst, and I consider the way people are calling them much worse to be very telling)

Actually apparently 700,000 people in England suffer from eating disorders.

http://www.b-eat.co.uk/about-beat/media-centre/information-and-statistics-about-eating-disorders

Like I said, we are not a graceful species at all.
Well, from what I understand, in US people are brought up thinking that US is the best, numero uno and, by extension, it also makes its citizens the best no matter who they are. This creates a psychological profile for people, according to which, since they are the best, they can never be wrong and them eating fat-rich food and living a (as someone said before me) white-collar exercise-less life is also correct way to live.

And when someone doesn't want to have a physical relationship with them they don't think that they are at fault. Oh no, it is society that is at fault.
Yes, there are people with, well, let's just call it big constitution, yes there are people who simply can't lose their fat belly no matter how much they run, diet and exersise (It's me we are talking aboot), but from what I gather vast majority of people are basically that: people who don't/can't eat what is actually good for their body and don't/can't exersise.

I agree, what I said about letting them die wasn't the best thing to say. At the time I was pissed about something that has nothing to do with the topic (not an excuse, but statement of a fact). But that doesn't change my opinion about people wishing for the world and society to change to suit their needs, not the other way around.

Internet in our modern world is essential (just like phones and high-quality public transportation are). The essenciality(?) is not limited to this one country. Fat people demanding to be considered as attractive as fit and healthy ones is a thing that exists in US and UK. I am not talking about bullying ("Ha, look at this ugly fat fuck"). I am talking about, to be blunt, demand to be arroused whether person likes it or not.

The quote presented to us claims that industry can make wonders with hyper-realistic visuals but fails to show "accurately portray the female body". First off, as said by others, it is a fantasy, it is something that does not exist in real life. Getting upset over how a 3D doll looks like is ridiculous. What is next? Should classic works of art that depict beautiful people be blocked for public viewing and be replaced by their copies that suddenly gaind 20 kilos?

What I CAN understand is when people get upset when they see portrail of real life people (celebrities and such). However: first of all, every image that you see was at the very least slightly altered in Photoshop. But even if those alterations were to be removed I bet most of the time you'd see a body that those people literally worked for: they dieted, they exercised.

Basically, the quote says that devs (at least) should be ashamed for not making female characters look like average american woman, who spends most of her time at work sitting by the desk, eating whatever whenever and hardly doing anything to get in shape. Slimmer one, or the one you've posted, any healthy shape.

I agree that many female characters (and male ones, to be perfectly honest) are not realistic. But those damn people want me to believe that Riku, a girl that always on the move, most of the game actively fighting monsters and runs around the world should look exactly like "average" woman, whose only physical activity during the day is getting from her bed, riding a car to work and riding it back. Ridiculous. She should have a bit of leg muscle though, I agree. But that is not what I see on those pictures.

As for England: US and UK are basically son/father or daughter/mother states. Hell, they belong to one legal family. I am not at all surprised that they have similar problems.
 
Sep 13, 2009
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Usually I'm pro these kind of things, but I feel like the point is seriously missed on a lot of these characters.

A large number of these characters are supposed to be very physically active. Lara Croft, Sonya Blade, what the hell, most of them. They've gone in and edited out the muscle on these characters. If you want to make these characters realistic, make them realistic for what they're supposed to be. For characters like Lara Croft, look at what's realistic for hikers and climbers. Lara Croft has an abnormally small waist, so if you need to fix something, fix that.

These might be more in line with the average American woman, but it's far from suiting from the average American athlete, which is the level of fitness that these characters are portraying. If you want to do this, you're better off choosing a character like Yuna than Rikku

EDIT:

rcs619 said:
Worth coming to this thread just for this post. This design is just badass
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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Adam Jensen said:
Right. Let's cater to every fuckin' little group that doesn't want to take responsibility for themselves. "Eating disorder" my ass. Stop eating like pigs. I hate fat acceptance and other shit like that. Being fat is not healthy and I don't have to accept it.
Being obese is not the same as having an eating disorder, please don't confuse the two. Bulimia is a serious eating disorder that takes a great toll on the body and can, potentially if left untreated, be fatal due to the stress it puts on the body.

Adam Jensen said:
This guy gets it.
I agree. These edited pictures are of women who most certainly qualify to be above 25 Body Mass Index from fat. From a health (and Swedish) perspective, they are clearly overweight and would do well from changing their diet and exercise habits. You are entirely right that for most people the problem is not that movies, video games and what have you are showing us women and men who are physically fit, have healthy BMIs and are often beautiful. The problem is that they lack the self-control to do anything about their own health risks and health problems (which obesity very much is). That being said, there are legit eating disorders (I know, I work with treating them) and it is kind of said that Bulimia.com is using one of them as a cover for what basically amounts to fat acceptance.

As an aside, most eating disorders aren't caused just by "skewed body ideals", there are often other psychological problems behind them such as anxiety issues, depressions or social problems like broken homes or bullying.
 

vagabondwillsmile

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WashAran said:
Lets also hope that they adopt the average to their lifestyle and profession, so that people can play Lara Croft the average american archaeologist or Jade the average american martial artist. Sounds great!
Exactly. I don't watch the olympics and think, "Why don't they look more like the average person?" Who has arms these guys? OLYMPIANS DO! These characters ARE NOT AVERAGE! The pro fighter is going to be built like a pro fighter. All that running, lifting, jumping, climbing, and fighting will naturally lead to a body that is well-designed for running, lifting, jumping, climbing and fighting. I'm sorry, but that's how excercise works. Constant sitting, eating garbage, and drinking soda or god damn ENERGY DRINKS will invariably produce different results. If that is life-style that someone choses, MALE OR FEMALE, fine. But that lifestyle has consequences. And those that live it shouldn't expect a high energy, fit, athletic character not to look the part. It makes no sense.

Conrad Zimmerman said:
Well, that's kind of related to the concern that the group has, that the ever presence of this kind of body image represents an unattainable ideal for the average person, the pursuit of which could result in the development of the eating disorders they provide information about.
The unrealistic expectations put on girls is horrible. I truly hate it. And the damage it does is real. I'VE SEEN IT HAPPEN TO SOMEONE CLOSE, and it can get so, so bad. People that haven't seen it have no idea. But the paradigm and the body image/eating disorders/depression aren't coming from video games and cartoons (the elements of style and fantasy nature of the mediums are enough of a disconnect that the character design isn't *presented* as an *expectation*). Rather, they are coming from children (like 14-16) modeling clothes for adult women. They are coming from the routine Photoshopping of models in magazines and on billboards. They are coming from manequins in the department stores that are never larger than a size 2 (unless you go to the plus size section). They are coming from bullies - and even garbage teachers - in school, and shit parents at home. They are coming from our titillation, sexualisation culture that is more about fetishizing the body than accepting it. And it's all constantly thrown in a girl's face pretty much from middle school on, with every magazine and program showing "live" examples of what girls are supposed to do, what they are expected to be, how they are expected to eat, how they ought to behave, and how they are expected to look, in order to fit into that ideal box of attractiveness as determined by American society. I can understand and even sympathise with the reasoning behind these redesigns. But honestly, the group is looking in the LEAST influential place possible with respect to females and body image.
 

Akjosch

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ThreeName said:
If you think current body trends are acceptable, that these photoshops represent some sort of "normal" weight range in anything other than the statistical sense, you're so fucking wrong.
Even in the statistical sense, the "normal" weight range is at the median, not at the average. And the median in this case is quite a bit lower than the average, too.

Why the fuck is everyone talking about "average" in this thread anyway? What your mind registers as "typical" is the median. For the USA (data from 2003-2006), and the female 20-29 age range (which most of those women fall in, aside of Cortana which could look like a T-Rex if she wanted to, and Rikku who's 15), that would be 65.3 kg / 144.0 lb weight, 163 cm / 64.2 inches height, 24.4 BMI. For the US counterpart of Rikku, that would be 57.6 kg / 126.9 lb weight, 162 cm /63.8 inches height, 22.1 BMI.

Source: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr010.pdf