Female Link May Appear In Hyrule Warriors For 3DS - Rumor

[Redryhno]

Look at it from the point of view of the people you oppose is all I gotta say. Still three camps to me. The people with "reasons" and the people just being assholes are going for the same goal. The only difference is how they go about it.

But Link is a diffirent person that happens to be named Link, and dresses similarly. He's not like Mario who's always Mario, instead Link is born, reborn, and reborn over and over again, thus Link is not Link, but a legacybearer of the Link before that has similarities to the previous.

I have absolutely zero problems with a gender select option.
I agree Link has never really done a whole lot that's traditionally male like go on dates with women, make out with women, have a wife, and family, and so forth, so a gender neutral script will be pretty easy to do, I think. Just need 2 VAs, or maybe just one to make "HYA! HYAI! HAAAII!!" noises. Women in Japan usually do young boy's voices anyhow, and "HUT HUT! HEJT! TYAAA! WAAA! HUT!" doesn't really need a translation to other languages. lol

Honestly, girls want to break out of podunk bumpkinvilles, and see the world, and go on adventures, too. I think it's pretty universal that near no one likes being cooped up, and limited in a place that is boring. I think it'd ring even more so if power to do something beyond the scope of normal were bestowed upon a person no matter their gender.

I can't imagine it's a whole lot of extra work depending on the aptitude of the company. I mean if we get a female link in Hyrule Warriors, it probably isn't a lot of trouble coz we're talking Koei here.
Koei's kinda masterful about charcter creation (Granted it's not super deep or anything), gender options, voices, and generally having a wide variety of characters, from young girls like the Qiao sisters and Gracia to large men like Meng Huo, Dong Zhuo, and Huang gai to even gigantic people like the boar demons in Warriors Orochi that are some 20 ft tall.
Basically it's well within the wheelhouse of Koei to make what ever character they want. Heck they even have Ganon in beast mode IIRC. I'm not too sure if Epona's a lone character or not.
We're not talking about EA here who complained making playable women was too hard only to do it in the upcoming AC, or anything like that.

"Look at it from the view of the people you oppose"

Gotta love that one. What a zinger to tell people, while not doing it oneself. Or actually even acknowledging my other points beyond it. Also you keep swapping between Hyrule Warriors and the main series for your arguments. The only problem I've got with "Linkle" is that there's not a game or world we know of to pull female Link from, and it's a game built on spectacle and the merging of universes. It's fanfiction, but it's also fanfiction that works within the established "rules" of the universe.

He's a different body, with the same soul. And in the game universe, that is all that matters. Destiny and fate are both things that are very much in use in the Zelda universe. Link is a guy, he dresses the same, acts the same, and does roughly the same things every iteration, he's bound to do about the same thing whenever all three bearers of the Triforce are in the same timeframe of one another, because he's the Hero of Time. About the only thing that changes is the layout of the world around the characters, because they all exist in nearly every game if you look around enough. Impa appears in nearly every game, Saria is Ilia, Darunia and Biggoron are near one another. Though now that I think about it, the Zora actually seem to have a royal line that changes every game they appear in, so I lie, they're an exception. Also the obvious new characters that some of the games get that sometimes never return.

And you're right, girls want those things as well, they're people as much as anyone else. But here's the thing, I gave examples of female characters that could be used instead of just genderswapping(something I've always considered to be the ultimate copout and lack of creativity in pretty much everything but Ranma). Because Zelda's got alot of them that are just as capable(more often than not moreso considering all the mini-games for pieces of heart) as Link himself. And there's alot of backstory that can actually be looked through with them in addition to being a hero. There's monuments to people other than Link all around the world. The Darknuts have their own history, the Gorons their own heroes, Lizalfos have a feud going on with the Sheikah going back centuries, Stalfos weren't always a race of undead, they were made that way through their own magic. There can be other stories besides Link's in the world that can involve women and I want those instead of Link with tits. Ashei has a dislike of most of the Hylian Guard because they're too easy to win against in a fight and has a respect for Link simply because he has the Master Sword.

Also, it's Ubi you're talking about with AC. Which I honestly can't blame them for considering the context of the game being you aren't another character to anybody but what someone else sees, you're just random assassin #24456821, and the more I think about it, the more I'm sure they only said it to get free publicity...especially with all the people somewhat copying the controversy since then.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Look at it from the point of view of the people you oppose is all I gotta say. Still three camps to me. The people with "reasons" and the people just being assholes are going for the same goal. The only difference is how they go about it.

But Link is a diffirent person that happens to be named Link, and dresses similarly. He's not like Mario who's always Mario, instead Link is born, reborn, and reborn over and over again, thus Link is not Link, but a legacybearer of the Link before that has similarities to the previous.

I have absolutely zero problems with a gender select option.
I agree Link has never really done a whole lot that's traditionally male like go on dates with women, make out with women, have a wife, and family, and so forth, so a gender neutral script will be pretty easy to do, I think. Just need 2 VAs, or maybe just one to make "HYA! HYAI! HAAAII!!" noises. Women in Japan usually do young boy's voices anyhow, and "HUT HUT! HEJT! TYAAA! WAAA! HUT!" doesn't really need a translation to other languages. lol

Honestly, girls want to break out of podunk bumpkinvilles, and see the world, and go on adventures, too. I think it's pretty universal that near no one likes being cooped up, and limited in a place that is boring. I think it'd ring even more so if power to do something beyond the scope of normal were bestowed upon a person no matter their gender.

I can't imagine it's a whole lot of extra work depending on the aptitude of the company. I mean if we get a female link in Hyrule Warriors, it probably isn't a lot of trouble coz we're talking Koei here.
Koei's kinda masterful about charcter creation (Granted it's not super deep or anything), gender options, voices, and generally having a wide variety of characters, from young girls like the Qiao sisters and Gracia to large men like Meng Huo, Dong Zhuo, and Huang gai to even gigantic people like the boar demons in Warriors Orochi that are some 20 ft tall.
Basically it's well within the wheelhouse of Koei to make what ever character they want. Heck they even have Ganon in beast mode IIRC. I'm not too sure if Epona's a lone character or not.
We're not talking about EA here who complained making playable women was too hard only to do it in the upcoming AC, or anything like that.

"Look at it from the view of the people you oppose"

Gotta love that one. What a zinger to tell people, while not doing it oneself. Or actually even acknowledging my other points beyond it. Also you keep swapping between Hyrule Warriors and the main series for your arguments. The only problem I've got with "Linkle" is that there's not a game or world we know of to pull female Link from, and it's a game built on spectacle and the merging of universes. It's fanfiction, but it's also fanfiction that works within the established "rules" of the universe.

He's a different body, with the same soul. And in the game universe, that is all that matters. Destiny and fate are both things that are very much in use in the Zelda universe. Link is a guy, he dresses the same, acts the same, and does roughly the same things every iteration, he's bound to do about the same thing whenever all three bearers of the Triforce are in the same timeframe of one another, because he's the Hero of Time. About the only thing that changes is the layout of the world around the characters, because they all exist in nearly every game if you look around enough. Impa appears in nearly every game, Saria is Ilia, Darunia and Biggoron are near one another. Though now that I think about it, the Zora actually seem to have a royal line that changes every game they appear in, so I lie, they're an exception. Also the obvious new characters that some of the games get that sometimes never return.

And you're right, girls want those things as well, they're people as much as anyone else. But here's the thing, I gave examples of female characters that could be used instead of just genderswapping(something I've always considered to be the ultimate copout and lack of creativity in pretty much everything but Ranma). Because Zelda's got alot of them that are just as capable(more often than not moreso considering all the mini-games for pieces of heart) as Link himself. And there's alot of backstory that can actually be looked through with them in addition to being a hero. There's monuments to people other than Link all around the world. The Darknuts have their own history, the Gorons their own heroes, Lizalfos have a feud going on with the Sheikah going back centuries, Stalfos weren't always a race of undead, they were made that way through their own magic. There can be other stories besides Link's in the world that can involve women and I want those instead of Link with tits. Ashei has a dislike of most of the Hylian Guard because they're too easy to win against in a fight and has a respect for Link simply because he has the Master Sword.

Also, it's Ubi you're talking about with AC. Which I honestly can't blame them for considering the context of the game being you aren't another character to anybody but what someone else sees, you're just random assassin #24456821, and the more I think about it, the more I'm sure they only said it to get free publicity...especially with all the people somewhat copying the controversy since then.

I actually do look at it from as many points of views as I can, and I'm willing to compromise, here. And I'm willing to state my point of view. But the thing is until people spell it out, I can only guess as to their point of view, and because of that, how they present themselves determines the amount of asshole I'm dealing with.

There's no Zelda game world to pull Cia from. Or Lana for that matter. I think that kinda blows the excuse for Hyrule Warriors having to stick to the game worlds out of the water.

Just coz Links share the same souls doesn't mean the soul has to determine the gender, IMO.

The problem, I guess, with making someone not Link the lead is probably the power sets. LoZ games generally have tool sets only Link can really use in the main ones. Hyrule Warriors is the exception, I imagine.
If just anyone could do what Link does, Link doen't seem so special. That said, I figure if someone else takes the lead, like Impa, or Zelda, then they either have to make them as powerful as Link, or really redo the whole Legend of Zelda forumla. I don't know if Nintendo is really up for that. I mean they screwed around with Mario's world and it didn't do them many favors, IIRC, and screwing with Samus? Granted it was another studio, but wow, I don't know if we're going to get another metroid game after messing up that formula.

Not my fault Ubisoft announced that they had initially planned on adding women, and then cut them out... then made a whole new AC that'll have a playable female Assassin (though I'm not getting hyped until I know the extent of her playability). I mean, why they said it is irrelevant, in my "what have you done for me lately" view of the gmaing industry, that's nails in their coffin. FC4 are even more nails. Just saying, I like Koei more than Ubisoft right now.

 

[Something Amyss]

We're not talking about EA here who complained making playable women was too hard only to do it in the upcoming AC, or anything like that.

In fairness, did you see how badly they botched that game? Ubisoft was probably telling the truth when they said women were too hard to animate[footnote]Glib version[/footnote]. They couldn't even make their existing models work. I imagine women would have breasts in odd places like Picasso paintings.

The funniest thing about Link is how little it'd take. He has elfin, effeminate features at any age, wears a tunic that looks like a skirt or dress, and is usually voiced by a girl (at least one of those you mention, but I'm throwing it out there) and there's still resistance? Heck, I don't even remember much in the way of gendered dialogue in Zelda games, either. Link's gender is so important he could already be a girl.

In fact, LRR's Checkpoint once covered a guy who made a gender swap ROMhack for his daughter, with the punchline being that so little effort was necessary. But the reality is, so little effort is necessary. You don't even need a second character model unless you really want to go there. Even Pokémon doesn't have that going for them.

(Not that I'd balk at a different character model for a female Link, I'm just saying the people complaining about ALL THE EFFORT seem a little insincere here)

 

[Rebel_Raven]

We're not talking about EA here who complained making playable women was too hard only to do it in the upcoming AC, or anything like that.

In fairness, did you see how badly they botched that game? Ubisoft was probably telling the truth when they said women were too hard to animate[footnote]Glib version[/footnote]. They couldn't even make their existing models work. I imagine women would have breasts in odd places like Picasso paintings.

The funniest thing about Link is how little it'd take. He has elfin, effeminate features at any age, wears a tunic that looks like a skirt or dress, and is usually voiced by a girl (at least one of those you mention, but I'm throwing it out there) and there's still resistance? Heck, I don't even remember much in the way of gendered dialogue in Zelda games, either. Link's gender is so important he could already be a girl.

In fact, LRR's Checkpoint once covered a guy who made a gender swap ROMhack for his daughter, with the punchline being that so little effort was necessary. But the reality is, so little effort is necessary. You don't even need a second character model unless you really want to go there. Even Pokémon doesn't have that going for them.

(Not that I'd balk at a different character model for a female Link, I'm just saying the people complaining about ALL THE EFFORT seem a little insincere here)

LOL Thanks, I needed the laugh! Yeah, Ubi really hurt trust in them with Unity all around. Cutting women, releasing a game with frightening bugs, etc. Granted some played the game unscathed, but word spread anyhow, and some people were hit by them, and their rep took a big hit. Didn't their stock tumble thanks to Unity?

Yeah, Link's more adult form was made because the designer wanted to make Link more appealing to his wife, IIRC, and Japan kinda goes the other way with what looks appeal to women than most typical western standards, though it's kinda changing in the west. But even still, Japan tends to take it farther than the west is likely willing to go for a while in most parts of it.
But heck, even before then,

Spoiler: we had this

But seriously, Link isn't that far from androgyny in more than one case.

Yeah, that guy that made the rom hack made several more, I think, which was really great of him! That's being there for your daughter on so many levels! It's a rare, but wonderful mentality!
A guy behind Payday 2 wanted to make female characters for his daughter's sake as well, and did!

 

[Redryhno]

There's no Zelda game world to pull Cia from. Or Lana for that matter. I think that kinda blows the excuse for Hyrule Warriors having to stick to the game worlds out of the water.

Just coz Links share the same souls doesn't mean the soul has to determine the gender, IMO.

The problem, I guess, with making someone not Link the lead is probably the power sets. LoZ games generally have tool sets only Link can really use in the main ones. Hyrule Warriors is the exception, I imagine.
If just anyone could do what Link does, Link doen't seem so special. That said, I figure if someone else takes the lead, like Impa, or Zelda, then they either have to make them as powerful as Link, or really redo the whole Legend of Zelda forumla. I don't know if Nintendo is really up for that. I mean they screwed around with Mario's world and it didn't do them many favors, IIRC, and screwing with Samus? Granted it was another studio, but wow, I don't know if we're going to get another metroid game after messing up that formula.

Not my fault Ubisoft announced that they had initially planned on adding women, and then cut them out... then made a whole new AC that'll have a playable female Assassin (though I'm not getting hyped until I know the extent of her playability). I mean, why they said it is irrelevant, in my "what have you done for me lately" view of the gmaing industry, that's nails in their coffin. FC4 are even more nails. Just saying, I like Koei more than Ubisoft right now.

As I said in another post, there had to be some kind of justification for Lana and Cia to exist and I'm willing to let them pass despite me not caring for either of them. As I said, it's fanfiction, but it has rules it abides by. I mean, nearly every Warriors game has characters that don't have a canon appearance...

And the reason Link doesn't feel so special, is because there's not really a huge amount that is special about him in the first place. He's got the Triforce of Courage, that's about it. And that's how it was designed mostly, nearly every game has the standard Epic Hero's Journey formula playing in it. There's not a huge amount special about Odysseus, and as I said in another post, the Eddings' books have heroes that aren't really all that special either. Xanth has alot of heroes that are only special because they become so after a huge amount of conflict. Link is much the same. Everything that makes him special comes from the struggles and and conflicts he/you encounter in the world.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

@Aiddon: I think you have a point in that a female Link would still be the same boring, personality-devoid character he's always been, just with a gender swap. The only reason why people would celebrate her being a female is the mere sake that she's a female, despite being the world's biggest dullard of a female character.

Exactly, it's a copout; it's not adding diversity, it's just pretending to add diversity by adding a gender option just like how adding a skin-shade indicator doesn't change the fact that the protagonist is always a white-male as a default. It doesn't solve the problem that we have too-few heroines in gaming and when we do get a heroine it's most certainly either a lazy archetype or a personality-deficient block masquerading as a woman. If you want a female character just write one instead of adding boobs and pretending that's anything but shallow.

And that's before we get into why arguing about this is moot: this isn't a female Link. The character was, as seen in the artbook and official Prima strategy guide, designed as a little sister to Link. In short, she's an ass-kicking Aryll.

Girl Link? How'll you tell the difference.. I mean honestly He's always kinda a been a little bishie. I mean if he had longer hair he'd give sephiroth a run for his money

Give Sephiroth a run for his money? Not even close; Link is barely a grade above typical male lead fare in Japanese culture. At best he's around Jin Kisaragi-level. Now if we were comparing, say, Alucard from Castlevania to Sephiroth that'd be closer on the scale. That's just how they like their men unlike America where "ruggedness" was the status-quo for awhile and that's gradually being phased out.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

There's no Zelda game world to pull Cia from. Or Lana for that matter. I think that kinda blows the excuse for Hyrule Warriors having to stick to the game worlds out of the water.

Just coz Links share the same souls doesn't mean the soul has to determine the gender, IMO.

The problem, I guess, with making someone not Link the lead is probably the power sets. LoZ games generally have tool sets only Link can really use in the main ones. Hyrule Warriors is the exception, I imagine.
If just anyone could do what Link does, Link doen't seem so special. That said, I figure if someone else takes the lead, like Impa, or Zelda, then they either have to make them as powerful as Link, or really redo the whole Legend of Zelda forumla. I don't know if Nintendo is really up for that. I mean they screwed around with Mario's world and it didn't do them many favors, IIRC, and screwing with Samus? Granted it was another studio, but wow, I don't know if we're going to get another metroid game after messing up that formula.

Not my fault Ubisoft announced that they had initially planned on adding women, and then cut them out... then made a whole new AC that'll have a playable female Assassin (though I'm not getting hyped until I know the extent of her playability). I mean, why they said it is irrelevant, in my "what have you done for me lately" view of the gmaing industry, that's nails in their coffin. FC4 are even more nails. Just saying, I like Koei more than Ubisoft right now.

As I said in another post, there had to be some kind of justification for Lana and Cia to exist and I'm willing to let them pass despite me not caring for either of them. As I said, it's fanfiction, but it has rules it abides by. I mean, nearly every Warriors game has characters that don't have a canon appearance...

And the reason Link doesn't feel so special, is because there's not really a huge amount that is special about him in the first place. He's got the Triforce of Courage, that's about it. And that's how it was designed mostly, nearly every game has the standard Epic Hero's Journey formula playing in it. There's not a huge amount special about Odysseus, and as I said in another post, the Eddings' books have heroes that aren't really all that special either. Xanth has alot of heroes that are only special because they become so after a huge amount of conflict. Link is much the same. Everything that makes him special comes from the struggles and and conflicts he/you encounter in the world.

Yeah, and this thread is about a female link in a Warriors game, and I'm all for a female Link in it. I mean it effectively adds gender select for Link, unless she has a unique moveset that makes her play different. The roster itself is really diverse since Koei can pretty creatively make a fighting style for virtually anyone, and often will just to make them a character.

As for a female Link outside of a warriors game:
I never said Link doesn't feel special. I'm sorry if it came out that way. Link is an icon, who's basically a shouty mix between peter pan, and batman. Dressed in green, a strong fighter with a pack that can carry dang near anything he'll ever need, being a bit of a detective for puzzles, and he's the hero.
But making someone else have that set of abilities in a Legend of Zelda game will kinda diminish Link's unique nature, yes. That said, Impa, Zelda, and others getting Link's skill set diminishes what makes Link special, IMO. The characters in the place of Link become clones of Link in essense because they have to do what Link does to complete their mission, and generally clones aren't looked upon well. Clones are not often respected, and it just dillutes what makes Link special. It raises the question of why in the heck are they so incompitent the rest of the time? If they can do everything the bearer of the Triforce of Courage can, then what makes Link so special when more than just Link can go save the day, and where the heck are they when the world needs them?

If they don't get Link's skill set in their own game, then the entire formula of the game has to change. Nintendo does not have the best track record with changing the formula.

When all is said and done, though, I'd like a woman to go through the heroe's journey a bit more often.

 

[JimB]

It's not adding diversity, it's just pretending to add diversity by adding a gender option just like how adding a skin-shade indicator doesn't change the fact that the protagonist is always a white-male as a default.

I take it from your lack of response to my previous post that you do not intend to answer my questions, Aiddon, but all the same, I feel I must ask, who said anything about diversity? For that matter, what does "diversity" mean to you when creating more options for players doesn't count as diversity?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

So here we have a character, born and reborn, time and time again, a kid who wears green and eventually saves the world. The character is also a guy all of the time, but it doesn't need justification because... why?

How come adding ovaries to a character for whom gender doesn't matter require justification?

Does the story of Pokemon change due to whether or not the trainer is a boy or a girl?

 

[MonsterCrit]

Girl Link? How'll you tell the difference.. I mean honestly He's always kinda a been a little bishie. I mean if he had longer hair he'd give sephiroth a run for his money

Give Sephiroth a run for his money? Not even close; Link is barely a grade above typical male lead fare in Japanese culture. At best he's around Jin Kisaragi-level. Now if we were comparing, say, Alucard from Castlevania to Sephiroth that'd be closer on the scale. That's just how they like their men unlike America where "ruggedness" was the status-quo for awhile and that's gradually being phased out.

Alucard.. pfeh. He's more of a Fop athana Bishie. Now if you want Bishie Castlevania. Soma or dear god. Juste Belmont (dude actually looks like he's wearing lipstick)

 

[Something Amyss]

=
LOL Thanks, I needed the laugh! Yeah, Ubi really hurt trust in them with Unity all around. Cutting women, releasing a game with frightening bugs, etc. Granted some played the game unscathed, but word spread anyhow, and some people were hit by them, and their rep took a big hit. Didn't their stock tumble thanks to Unity?

It surprised me to see they were still asking sixty bucks for it, even as a new game was coming out and they presumably want us to forget the wrongs of Unity. Like you, I'm skeptical of this "brother/sister" duo thing and wonder how much time you'll actually get to play as the female lead. But that's partially GTA's fault. "approach things how you want. Freely switch characters. But we will railroad you in 80% of te missions. Because choice!"

Yeah, Link's more adult form was made because the designer wanted to make Link more appealing to his wife, IIRC, and Japan kinda goes the other way with what looks appeal to women than most typical western standards, though it's kinda changing in the west. But even still, Japan tends to take it farther than the west is likely willing to go for a while in most parts of it.

I didn't know why it was made, but I'm not really surprised. It shouldn't even be that shocking to the West, given we've got a history of effeminate beauty standards, too:

Spoiler: Archangel Michael

[img=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Guido_Reni_031.jpg]

Noit that I'm complaining. I like 'em pretty. It's just sort of weird to me that we've completely forgotten that even as little as a couple hundred years ago (not the painting in question, just saying) the West was super into femmier guys. Though a couple hundred years ago, we like to think in terms of cowboys and pioneers because 'Murrica!

Spoiler: we had this

But seriously, Link isn't that far from androgyny in more than one case.

*dies*
*Comes back*
*dies again*

But yeah, seriously, it's not like we're forcing Marcus Fenix to gender swap or anything here. I'm pretty sure there are people out there who are seriously like "Link's not a girl?" when someone says "OMG, I can't believe Link's a girl now!"

Yeah, that guy that made the rom hack made several more, I think, which was really great of him! That's being there for your daughter on so many levels! It's a rare, but wonderful mentality!

Yeah, I've seen a few such ROM hacks. I'm not really into the scene, but I think it's cool that people are doing it. I also think it kinda sucks that people need to. Still, it's cool to see him making games more accessible for his daughter.

Looking at this thread made me think of the oh-so-hated Bechdel test, and how low the standards really are, and how often they're still not met.

A guy behind Payday 2 wanted to make female characters for his daughter's sake as well, and did!

I didn't know there were female characters in Payday 2, but cool.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

=
LOL Thanks, I needed the laugh! Yeah, Ubi really hurt trust in them with Unity all around. Cutting women, releasing a game with frightening bugs, etc. Granted some played the game unscathed, but word spread anyhow, and some people were hit by them, and their rep took a big hit. Didn't their stock tumble thanks to Unity?

It surprised me to see they were still asking sixty bucks for it, even as a new game was coming out and they presumably want us to forget the wrongs of Unity. Like you, I'm skeptical of this "brother/sister" duo thing and wonder how much time you'll actually get to play as the female lead. But that's partially GTA's fault. "approach things how you want. Freely switch characters. But we will railroad you in 80% of te missions. Because choice!"

Doesn't help at all that there's more than a few games that will gladly make you play as the guy 90% of the time, or make you beat the whole game as the guy to play as the woman who's story is largely the same as the guy's so all the surprise, and magic is gone.
And I gotta wonder how much more relationship action the guy will get. Basically if the content of character/story be even remotely balanced between the two. I kinda doubt it, personally.

Yeah, Link's more adult form was made because the designer wanted to make Link more appealing to his wife, IIRC, and Japan kinda goes the other way with what looks appeal to women than most typical western standards, though it's kinda changing in the west. But even still, Japan tends to take it farther than the west is likely willing to go for a while in most parts of it.

I didn't know why it was made, but I'm not really surprised. It shouldn't even be that shocking to the West, given we've got a history of effeminate beauty standards, too:

Spoiler: Archangel Michael

[img=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Guido_Reni_031.jpg]

Noit that I'm complaining. I like 'em pretty. It's just sort of weird to me that we've completely forgotten that even as little as a couple hundred years ago (not the painting in question, just saying) the West was super into femmier guys. Though a couple hundred years ago, we like to think in terms of cowboys and pioneers because 'Murrica!

Yeah, I was kinda surprised to learn about Link's attempt to appeal to girls, too. I'm not terribly surprised that the west liked, well, not so muscley guys either, but there's the whole triangular upper body ideal in a fair chunk of the western world... and way too many guys skipping leg day... but that's another thing.
I mean we have body builder contests in the west. I haven't heard of many out east, russia aside, really.

Spoiler: we had this

But seriously, Link isn't that far from androgyny in more than one case.

*dies*
*Comes back*
*dies again*

But yeah, seriously, it's not like we're forcing Marcus Fenix to gender swap or anything here. I'm pretty sure there are people out there who are seriously like "Link's not a girl?" when someone says "OMG, I can't believe Link's a girl now!"[/quote] haha "You mean, Zelda's real name is link?" I bet that still happens.
Heck, I liked the designs of the women in Gears of war. They were kinda burly, and decently armored along with the guys. But yeah, It's apples and oranges between Link and Marcus. Marcus is not being reincarnated in nearly every game like Link is.

Yeah, that guy that made the rom hack made several more, I think, which was really great of him! That's being there for your daughter on so many levels! It's a rare, but wonderful mentality!

Yeah, I've seen a few such ROM hacks. I'm not really into the scene, but I think it's cool that people are doing it. I also think it kinda sucks that people need to. Still, it's cool to see him making games more accessible for his daughter.

Looking at this thread made me think of the oh-so-hated Bechdel test, and how low the standards really are, and how often they're still not met.

Yeah. Bechdel isn't a perfect test, but it does show how poor the representation of women are despite being imperfect.

A guy behind Payday 2 wanted to make female characters for his daughter's sake as well, and did!

I didn't know there were female characters in Payday 2, but cool.

[/quote]
Yeah, there's 2 now thanks to DLC. I'm prolly gunna try to pick up Payday 2 due to that. That whole voting with my wallet thing.

 

[SixWingedAsura]

When all is said and done, though, I'd like a woman to go through the heroe's journey a bit more often.

But why does it have to be a genderswap? It's been told time and time again, but no one wants to seem to address it: There's plenty of other female characters who most of us would love to see in the hero's seat. Why can't it be Zelda who goes through the hero's journey, instead of hijacking an already established character? People have been giving me reasons for a female Link, sure, but none of them have been reasons that can't be addressed by simply having one of the many, MANY LoZ females being the protagonist of a game. There is nothing that a female Link can add that can't be added by having, again, say Zelda be a choice to pick at the beginning of a game and letting us play as her or Link for the adventure.

Hell, that actually would be kinda awesome. Nintendo, if you're forum trawling, take note!

 

[Luckydan]

When all is said and done, though, I'd like a woman to go through the heroe's journey a bit more often.

But why does it have to be a genderswap? It's been told time and time again, but no one wants to seem to address it: There's plenty of other female characters who most of us would love to see in the hero's seat. Why can't it be Zelda who goes through the hero's journey, instead of hijacking an already established character? People have been giving me reasons for a female Link, sure, but none of them have been reasons that can't be addressed by simply having one of the many, MANY LoZ females being the protagonist of a game. There is nothing that a female Link can add that can't be added by having, again, say Zelda be a choice to pick at the beginning of a game and letting us play as her or Link for the adventure.

Hell, that actually would be kinda awesome. Nintendo, if you're forum trawling, take note!

You don't do your research at all do you? You might want to delve deeper than play just triple AAA games there are ton of games where you play a female protag. Japanese have been pandering to both "fujoshi" and "otaku" most of the time. They will not take note of your forum trawling because really if you haven't played a game called Shilouette Mirage all your doing IMHO is reading the back of the book and complaining to the company and gamers that you "Really" don't get into games.

Ever heard of Hakouki and Short Fuse? Guess not they are female based journey games, what about the new Danganronpa? That has a female protag. I can pretty much go on and on all your doing is getting your toes wet.

Zelda has been a hero for 2 games on the CD-I, so there's your answer and you don't understand the puns of the naming conventions. "Link" is a link to you to the world and "Navi" is your Navigator Japanese games have tons of puns and you just missed them. Zelda cannot be a choice because the game is pretty much based around her, your just playing a silent protag if you think "Link" is the focus of the game your very much mistaken. Link is just a projection of you into the world, enjoy it for what it is. What your saying is "YOU" want Captain America to have a choice of being a male or a female.... It just doesn't work since Captain America is practically a Parody of GIJOE.

In Hyrule Warriors it works cause it's based around "what if" scenarios and the cast moves as a team.

 

[Something Amyss]

Doesn't help at all that there's more than a few games that will gladly make you play as the guy 90% of the time, or make you beat the whole game as the guy to play as the woman who's story is largely the same as the guy's so all the surprise, and magic is gone.
And I gotta wonder how much more relationship action the guy will get. Basically if the content of character/story be even remotely balanced between the two. I kinda doubt it, personally.

I remember playing what I think was the first Onimusha and there are a couple segments where you play as his female companion. Except she's not the chosen one, so it's actually more or less punishment. Yay! I get to play as the sidekick with no powers or even a healing ability!

Those were the only sections of the game I died or failed except maybe the final boss.

Anyway, yeah, I expect it to be very much his story, and she's along for the ride. I'm betting most of what you can do with her is in free mode. Maybe they'll surprise me. And maybe someone will send me a billion dollars. I mean, I won't judge the game until I see it, but I don't hold out much hope for anything more than half measures because it's Ubisoft.

Yeah, I was kinda surprised to learn about Link's attempt to appeal to girls, too. I'm not terribly surprised that the west liked, well, not so muscley guys either, but there's the whole triangular upper body ideal in a fair chunk of the western world... and way too many guys skipping leg day... but that's another thing.
I mean we have body builder contests in the west. I haven't heard of many out east, russia aside, really.

In fairness, I'm pretty sure body building is primarily for guys to show off to other guys. From what I head on non-gaming sites, the big muscly dudes are always surprised they don't seem to attract nearly as many women as they think they should. I don't think much actual thought about women goes into it.

But yeah, we've got this weird split in our culture. You have the so-called "alpha males" and the so-called "metrosexuals," sometimes even in the same magazines. Hell, I think some game characters try and split the difference. "He's rugged and sculpted and knows how to wax...."

haha "You mean, Zelda's real name is link?" I bet that still happens.

Well, "Link" doesn't sound as epic....

But yeah, I bet it still does. Zelda and Doctor Who can argue over who has it worse.

Heck, I liked the designs of the women in Gears of war. They were kinda burly, and decently armored along with the guys. But yeah, It's apples and oranges between Link and Marcus. Marcus is not being reincarnated in nearly every game like Link is.

The women fit thematically with the art style and whatnot, too. Everything in those games is heavy and stocky, from the people to the places.

And yeah, Marcus isn't a hero reborn in every era as part of a cycle of good and evil. He's just some guy with a gun. Links are interchangeable for the most part. Link doesn't even really have much in the way of personality, except what we impress on him.

Yeah. Bechdel isn't a perfect test, but it does show how poor the representation of women are despite being imperfect.

Well, that's the real thrust of the thing anyway. It doesn't test for sexism, or context would be a part. But it does show a meta representation of women in media.

Yeah, there's 2 now thanks to DLC. I'm prolly gunna try to pick up Payday 2 due to that. That whole voting with my wallet thing.

I'm more tempted toigive it a whirl myself.

But why does it have to be a genderswap?

Are we talking about this game? Because the character in question is described as "Linkle," a "little sister" or "sister-like" character. It's not a gender swap.

But why in general?

Because people complain when women get new characters and they complain when women are gender swapped. It's "damned if you do, damned if you don't."

It's been told time and time again, but no one wants to seem to address it: There's plenty of other female characters who most of us would love to see in the hero's seat. Why can't it be Zelda who goes through the hero's journey, instead of hijacking an already established character?

Dude, I've barely visited this forum of late, and I've seen this addressed. How have you not?

Link is special in the universe. He's "The chosen one." Most, if not all of the female characters would need to be rewritten--altering canon as a result--to make this work. And I imagine people would start complaining they "hijacked" canon at that point. Why can't it be Zelda? People pissed and moaned when a freaking ROM hack did that. Imagine the reaction if Nintendo did.

Hell, people are pissing and moaning about a non-canon kid sister character in a non-canon game. Do you not see how ridiculous this is? There are people less upset that actual historical figures have been revised to fit in the Dynasty/Samurai Warriors games, or that they've added fictional/video game characters to the mix. I have trouble taking people as being sincere on the issue.

There is nothing that a female Link can add that can't be added by having, again, say Zelda be a choice to pick at the beginning of a game and letting us play as her or Link for the adventure.

Well, as long as you rewrite the established lore on the characters and their roles. I mean, hey, I'm fine with that. I'm not a big Zelda player and couldn't even care less about continuity between games. The only game I've played in the last decade is Link Between Works (Unless Crossbow training counts, does it count?). Oh, when Hyrule Warriors comes to 3DS, I will play that, too. But it's not really canon or concerned with continuity from what I've seen, so....

I would point out that I suggested the exact same thing on this forum before, and got yelled at by angry Zelda fans.

So you know what? A female Link would actually be the best solution. Why try and propose alternatives? It requires the least effort, the least damage to the Holy Scripture that is the Zelda canon (as it does none), and the least effort to code, in probability.

 

[Luckydan]

[
I remember playing what I think was the first Onimusha and there are a couple segments where you play as his female companion. Except she's not the chosen one, so it's actually more or less punishment. Yay! I get to play as the sidekick with no powers or even a healing ability!

Those were the only sections of the game I died or failed except maybe the final boss.

Anyway, yeah, I expect it to be very much his story, and she's along for the ride. I'm betting most of what you can do with her is in free mode. Maybe they'll surprise me. And maybe someone will send me a billion dollars. I mean, I won't judge the game until I see it, but I don't hold out much hope for anything more than half measures because it's Ubisoft.

Don't lump Eastern and Western Games into the same category, this is what your doing here and it shows how much you don't play games. You don't lump Full metal Alchemist and Adventure Time in the same category do you? Cause I'm reading and reading this and mentioning this is pretty much what your doing throughout your post and worry about playing a female in Assassin Creed should be the least of your worries, you should be more worried that game would be playable on release. Even then Ubisoft has made a female based game Child of Light, so they are changing you are worried about naught.

Well, as long as you rewrite the established lore on the characters and their roles. I mean, hey, I'm fine with that. I'm not a big Zelda player and couldn't even care less about continuity between games. The only game I've played in the last decade is Link Between Works (Unless Crossbow training counts, does it count?). Oh, when Hyrule Warriors comes to 3DS, I will play that, too. But it's not really canon or concerned with continuity from what I've seen, so....

I would point out that I suggested the exact same thing on this forum before, and got yelled at by angry Zelda fans.

So you know what? A female Link would actually be the best solution. Why try and propose alternatives? It requires the least effort, the least damage to the Holy Scripture that is the Zelda canon (as it does none), and the least effort to code, in probability.

Nope, See my previous post, the game is about Zelda not about Link and you've missed the puns, Link is a projection of you into the game and just changing gender doesn't really work because why? Are you gonna buy the game cause Link has breasts and a skirt now? And then the ultimate question why would a FEMALE LINK SAVE ZELDA? You know what kind of person who would do that a shallow person, it just doesn't fit the lore and the mythos of the universe (which is medieval based) besides if you really want to play a female there are pleathora of other games that does it why not play Dark Souls series if you want more control you can play a girl if that you really want to do (I've done it, I get tired of playing male characters all the time)? It's like saying Catcher in the Rye why not make the character a female it doesn't damage anything !!!

 

[Something Amyss]

Don't lump Eastern and Western Games into the same category, this is what your doing here and it shows how much you don't play games.

I don't care if you don't agree with me, but don't tell me how much I do or don't play games. Because you've shown you don't know how much I do or don't play games. There's a good chance I've been playing games since before you were born, since most users on this site are a decade or more younger than me. But if you're really that fussed about how much I play games, my XBL and Steam accounts are linked in my profile. Though that doesn't factor older games, PSN, Wii, 3/DS, or the rest.

You don't lump Full metal Alchemist and Adventure Time in the same category do you?

Never watched Adventure, so I don't know if I would. But I would be more prone to put, say, Galaxy Rangers or Firefly with Outlaw Star than I would Outlaw Star with the Super Sentai franchise or GoLion/Voltron depending on your age and preference.

In other words, I wouldn't inherently lump them, no. But I wasn't saying that Onimusha was the sole reason, I was relating to a previous statement. And RR was talking about something that happens in both Eastern and Western games, so trying to distinguish them is faulty at best here.

you should be more worried that game would be playable on release.

You mean a worry I've already voiced that you ignored selectively to go after me for a comparison you don't like? I mean, what part about referencing Unity and its horrible brokenness causing my lack of faith in them was particularly unclear to you? I'd like to know, so maybe I can go back and edit it to make it clear for others.

I don't trust Ubisoft because they released a broken mess of a game. And I also mentioned how much it annoyed me that they're still charging full price for that broken mess of a game, even as they want us to get excited for Assassin's Creed: Victorian Batman.

not to mention, you ignored the part where I reference GTA V, a Western game. Or where I specifically say, "but I don't hold out much hope for anything more than half measures because it's Ubisoft." Because it's Ubisoft. My concerns are not based specifically on the Onimusha example. Don't pretend otherwise.

Even then Ubisoft has made a female based game Child of Light, so they are changing you are worried about naught.

No, I'm not worried for naught. Ubisoft has released female-based games in the past. This isn't a change, nor does it demonstrate anything. Is that the reason you're really responding? You don't like that I want more women in games? It would seem so.

Nope, See my previous post, the game is about Zelda not about Link and you've missed the puns

I haven't missed the "puns." They're not so much puns as references, though. I've commented on this before, too. You might as well tell me that I missed that "Neo" is an anagram for "one" for all the information you dropped.

Also, claiming that the game is "about" Zelda doesn't change anything. At least, nothing I've said that I can see. Perhaps you can point out what specifically changes about a female Link when the game is "about" Zelda.

Link is a projection of you into the game and just changing gender doesn't really work because why? Are you gonna buy the game cause Link has breasts and a skirt now?

Link already has a skirt. Hell, Link already looks like a girl. Also, I was already going to buy the game when I heard it was coming to 3DS. I'd own it for Wii U, but that would require me to buy a Wii U. And as fun as Splatoon looks, I don't think I could justify the three games I want as worth the cost of the console. Hell, if you knew about my gaming habits, you'd know I was a big fan of the Koei Warriors games. That was already a strong motivator for me.

But if Link is supposed to be your projection into the game, why shouldn't the projection have breasts if that's what I choose? Are you going to not buy the game because Link has breasts? If no, why is it a problem? And if yes, why would you condemn others for doing the same because she didn't?

And then the ultimate question why would a FEMALE LINK SAVE ZELDA?

Why would a chosen hero not save someone in danger simply because she has boobs? In fact, why does the gender of the victim matter unless the argument is solely that Link only saves Zelda to get laid? And why is saving the world from evil a shallow goal when a girl saves a girl, but not otherwise? Especially since the games have been pretty much non-romantic. I'd say it's more shallow to insist a female Link wouldn't care about Zelda.

It's like saying Catcher in the Rye why not make the character a female it doesn't damage anything !!!

I can actually think of a few scenes in Catcher that would be altered by a female lead. This is in direct contrast to Zelda, where there's almost no gendered content except pronouns.

But again, you instruct me to "go play Dark Souls." Why would I do that? Why would I specifically play a game I have no interest in because I can play as a girl? Is that your only motivator for choosing video games? I would guess not, since you said you play as a girl in Dark Souls, but then, why make it out like this is my motive? The only thing I've said so far that would say it had any motivating factor was commenting on Payday 2 and how I was more tempted to try it. Even then, you have to ignore the "more" part to get there.

If you don't purchase games solely based on the gender of the protagonist, don't expect me to.

 

[Erttheking]

Female link? HYRULE WARRIORS FOR 3DS!? Mine! Give it to me! Yesterday!

(Probably a smart business move. Nindendo sold twice as many 3DSs as they did Wii-Us right?)

 

[Rebel_Raven]

When all is said and done, though, I'd like a woman to go through the heroe's journey a bit more often.

But why does it have to be a genderswap? It's been told time and time again, but no one wants to seem to address it: There's plenty of other female characters who most of us would love to see in the hero's seat. Why can't it be Zelda who goes through the hero's journey, instead of hijacking an already established character? People have been giving me reasons for a female Link, sure, but none of them have been reasons that can't be addressed by simply having one of the many, MANY LoZ females being the protagonist of a game. There is nothing that a female Link can add that can't be added by having, again, say Zelda be a choice to pick at the beginning of a game and letting us play as her or Link for the adventure.

Hell, that actually would be kinda awesome. Nintendo, if you're forum trawling, take note!

Well,like I explained before, Link has a unique moveset, and due to being the a bearer of the triforce of courage that kinda puts him at a pinnacle point of being a hero.
If, say, Zelda were to have access to boomerangs, bows, hook shots, bombs, assorted boots, the triforce of courage, etc. Link wouldn't be very special anymore.
If the triforce of courage isn't needed, or dare I say most of Link's equipment, and lets say Impa was the lead, then what the heck is the point of Link when someone not so special is powerful enough to do everything Link does?

If they don't give the female protagonist Link's abilities, then it'll have to be a whole new game, won't it? Nintendo isn't huge on whole new games, I'd say.

I'm not saying it has to be a gender swap. Just saying that I'm open to the possibility. Especially due to the afore mentioned stuff.
I'm not saying the rest of the world's lore isn't interesting enough to explore.

A female link can add some draw to gamers that want to play as a female character.

Now here's where I askwhat's there to be gained in keeping Link a guy?

 

[Seanfall]

If this is true, they've just gained a sale from me.