Feminists next target; Battlefield 1.

[RaikuFA]

Geez, one day up and already at four pages.

And all for jumping at ghosts.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I'm more amazed at USA for pretending it won WWI single-handed. They were barely in it! They only fought the last few months.

You do know that DICE is a Swedish company right?

You do know that DICE is a subsidiary of an American company right?

Yes. So EA made this decision? They went public with it? I'm honestly curious, did they make an announcement for that somewhere?

A subsidiary is a company that is owned or controlled by another company. EA owns and controls DICE.

In other words no, they did not announce if this was their decision. Well, that's all I had to hear, thank you for your time.

Sure. In other news from Amazing Stories, employees don't have to answer to their bosses now.

 

[Oroboros]

They promised playable female soldiers, and even advertised one in the first trailer,before going back on what they'd said. I'd say there's plenty there to criticize.

Lots of folks bringing up that female soldiers were rather rare in WWI, and that's true. However, the Harlem Hellfighters, which we can play as, were a tiny fraction of the total troops that served in WWI. DICE obviously felt there was a story well worth telling there, despite their relatively minor role. I think this is rather cool. Now it looks like DICE (at some point) thought that exploring female soldiers in WWI would also be something worth exploring-hence the female soldier in the trailer. And I think that would be something cool to explore as well. The diversity of the forces involved in WWI has been something that they have been emphasizing so far, and I think that's commendable.

They have reneged on at least part of that now though, and I think that's really unfortunate.

EDIT: Is the Bedouin warrior still playable in single player? Or is she being removed as part of this backpedaling?

 

[IamLEAM1983]

I'll admit I rolled my eyes when I saw the OP mention he was waiting Sarkeesian's cohorts to pop up. I mean, God forbid someone express a contrarian opinion, am I right?

We'll have to reach a point where putting female soldiers under the stress of warfare for the purposes of our precious shooty bang-bangs isn't perceived as sexism or a breach in chivalry. We'll also have to eventually reach a point where a statistical minority doesn't warrant its being ignored for sheer convenience.

I'll take our wins where we can take them, though. A Black lead in the single-player campaign would already be a lot.

 

[Avnger]

You can talk about your vision of feminism but I can promise you, other feminist groups would absolutely flip their shit if you could shank, and shot women in a game like Battlefield. Especially people on Sarkesian's side of the feminist wall, as they believe that video games promote violence and the victimization of women, and putting female characters in a Battlefield game it LITERALLY murdering women.

Out of curiosity, do you have any kind of source to back this up or are we supposed to take your word for it? You're speaking in very absolute terms. Because nearly all of the violence related things that I have come across regarding women in violent games regards their status as powerless victims (ie: the sex workers in Hitman or the "rape" scene in Tomb Raider). The main issue is that they are not treated the same as the male characters. Someone else brought up the example of Fallout 4. There are LOADS of female NPCs that it is possible to inflict violence upon, yet no one raised a single peep about it.

Note: Please don't link to some random nobody's single tweet. It's honestly not representative of anything, and we all know that one could find a single tweet or two that argues any position possible in the world.

It's been brought up in a few of Anita's FF video's. Typically when she refers to this kind of thing, it has to do with games like Grand Theft Auto, where you can just go and murder people on the street and what not. No I don't have a direct quote, but go watch those videos if you can stomach the nonsense. But keep in mind Anita's "feminist" views are not normal feminist views. She's what I've begun to call a Feminist "Extremist" where she takes offense to just about everything and anything. Her videos complain about costume design, perpetrating violence against women, treating women as objects and rewards, etc and so forth. And I'm just saying, that because she has a problem with violence against women, she (and people in her camp) will have a problem with women in a battlefield game getting slaughtered.

I'm really not trying to be an ass here, but telling someone to go watch a bunch of videos isn't exactly proof; it's the equivalent of just telling someone to "go google it." If you can't show specific examples, you essentially have nothing proof-wise. And specifically regarding any of Anita's videos, I'm not going to just take your word on what she said; it's honestly not personal. I've just seen way too many complete misinterpretations (both deliberate and accidental) of what she says when people paraphrase her.

 

[Wrex Brogan]

How did you clear this up? We know that there was a petition that managed to get GTAV banned from a couple of stores in Australia on the grounds of "depicting violence against women", which is true enough, if you completely ignore the fact that it also depicts (a lot more) violence against men.

As for Anita, she has become the be-all end-all of feminist critique in gaming. It was gaming sites that put her there and she gladly accepted the role. You really think that this promotion has absolutely nothing to do with the outcry over certain games? GTA has indeed been doing this since the PS2 games and at the time the only people to complain so vocally about it were Jack Thompson and his ilk.

I haven't played GTAV yet, but I'm pretty sure you could kill the hot-dog vendors in GTAIV and they practically provided the same form of service, in terms of gameplay and mechanics.

...You know, for someone who is the 'be-all end-all of feminist critique in gaming', I only seem to ever hear about her from people who don't like her. S'weird, you know? It's almost as if she's... not as big a deal as people keep hyping her up for. As if she's not this weird Super-Feminist Overlord and instead just some internet shmuck who churns out Feminist 101 critiques of various forms of media. Shit, she's even moving away from gaming to focus on history now! Truly, the be-all end-all.

I'm more amazed at USA for pretending it won WWI single-handed. They were barely in it! They only fought the last few months.

'Pffttt. That's nothing new. We've been pretending that for decades.

My history classes even weighted our involvement in both WWs to the point you'd think the other forces were the ones who joined at the end. Well, until college.

It was honestly the weirdest thing coming at American war games from an Australian background - all our history classes talked about shit we did, then all these American games are like 'Australians? In our War? No thank you!' and turned all the Rats of Tobruk into Bostonites or something.

...Hell, I recall one of the various Gamecube Medal of Honor games that resulted in the player character participating in the fucking Siege of Stalingrad, so... yeah. Historical Accuracy? Not what these games had in mind.

 

[CritialGaming]

snip

I don't blame you. I don't wanna dig through her Youtube tripe again, and I don't expect you to either. So believer whatever you want, and take what people say on an internet forum with a grain of salt. Considering the subject matter is completely non-important, i.e. video games.

 

[Stewie Plisken]

...You know, for someone who is the 'be-all end-all of feminist critique in gaming', I only seem to ever hear about her from people who don't like her. S'weird, you know? It's almost as if she's... not as big a deal as people keep hyping her up for. As if she's not this weird Super-Feminist Overlord and instead just some internet shmuck who churns out Feminist 101 critiques of various forms of media. Shit, she's even moving away from gaming to focus on history now! Truly, the be-all end-all.

Hey, I wasn't the first to bring her up in this topic, I was responding to someone. I also wasn't the one to parade her face all over the place, send her on Colbert, give her two cops for protection while interviewing her on ABC or give her an "Ambassador's Award" on GDC, simply because she (presumably) has a vagina.

It's true her exposure died down recently in comparison, but let's not pretend she was just some random critic buried somewhere in Youtube that only them evil trolls and misogynists bring up. She was legitimately high-profile within this industry for a good while.

 

[Exley97_v1legacy]

You can talk about your vision of feminism but I can promise you, other feminist groups would absolutely flip their shit if you could shank, and shot women in a game like Battlefield. Especially people on Sarkesian's side of the feminist wall, as they believe that video games promote violence and the victimization of women, and putting female characters in a Battlefield game it LITERALLY murdering women.

Out of curiosity, do you have any kind of source to back this up or are we supposed to take your word for it? You're speaking in very absolute terms. Because nearly all of the violence related things that I have come across regarding women in violent games regards their status as powerless victims (ie: the sex workers in Hitman or the "rape" scene in Tomb Raider). The main issue is that they are not treated the same as the male characters. Someone else brought up the example of Fallout 4. There are LOADS of female NPCs that it is possible to inflict violence upon, yet no one raised a single peep about it.

Note: Please don't link to some random nobody's single tweet. It's honestly not representative of anything, and we all know that one could find a single tweet or two that argues any position possible in the world.

It's been brought up in a few of Anita's FF video's. Typically when she refers to this kind of thing, it has to do with games like Grand Theft Auto, where you can just go and murder people on the street and what not. No I don't have a direct quote, but go watch those videos if you can stomach the nonsense.

There are text transcripts of her videos. They are quite searchable.

But keep in mind Anita's "feminist" views are not normal feminist views.

According to who, exactly?

She's what I've begun to call a Feminist "Extremist" where she takes offense to just about everything and anything.

I'd argue you are not exactly in a great position to be lecturing about people taking extreme offense to everything when you're taking offense to arguments and actions that people, including Sarkeesian, HAVEN'T EVEN MADE.

Her videos complain about costume design, perpetrating violence against women, treating women as objects and rewards, etc and so forth.

Criticizing the culture of violence against women/sexual objectification of women are pretty common feminist views, despite your argument to the contrary.

And I'm just saying, that because she has a problem with violence against women, she (and people in her camp) will have a problem with women in a battlefield game getting slaughtered.

Again, you're doing the same thing the OP is -- blaming people for something they haven't even done yet and may never do, and taking offense to fictional arguments made by strawman (woman?) versions of your perceived adversaries. And it's beyond ridiculous.

Look EA probably said some dumb shit about the whole issue and it is getting blown out of proportion. But I have said for quite sometime, that you cannot blindly stick women into a game without thinking about context. Concessions have to be made for how those women are portrayed, and treated, because if you do it wrong there will be backlash. It's just the way it is right now.

And you're backlashing against an anticipated backlash that -- again, for the third or fourth time -- DOESN'T. EVEN. EXIST.

 

[EternallyBored]

I'm more amazed at USA for pretending it won WWI single-handed. They were barely in it! They only fought the last few months.

You do know that DICE is a Swedish company right?

You do know that DICE is a subsidiary of an American company right?

Yes. So EA made this decision? They went public with it? I'm honestly curious, did they make an announcement for that somewhere?

A subsidiary is a company that is owned or controlled by another company. EA owns and controls DICE.

In other words no, they did not announce if this was their decision. Well, that's all I had to hear, thank you for your time.

Sure. In other news from Amazing Stories, employees don't have to answer to their bosses now.

To be fair, it's not exactly hard to imagine DICE doing this without the influence of EA, there are plenty of companies based completely outside the U.S. That still shamelessly pander to American audiences. Ubisoft loves jacking off Americans in its war games despite being a French company.

America is a massive market that's mostly homogenous, and isnt as insular as Japanese markets or as piracy prone as Chinese markets. War games sell especially well in America, so there is incentive to pander to Americans.

While it's certainly possible that EA has some influence, I wouldn't put it past DICE to have made the decision on their own, the battlefield series has always featured the U.S. Very prominently, and is popular in the US, DICE likely knows that without EA telling them anything.

 

[CritialGaming]

snip

You're absolutely right. None of this has happened yet. Hell none of this might ever happen. Actually....we can be assured that it wont, because they aren't putting women in battlefield. So there is no reason to have a discussion because it is literally a discussion about nothing.

My judgements are basis solely on past experiences, so all I can do is guess about how things will go down. But isn't that all anyone on this thread can do? Guess? Guess why DICE pulled women from the game, guess how people would have reacted if they had been left in the game? It's all guessing and hypothetical work.

And my guess is that people would have a problem directly shooting other women in the face. Not the players mind you, but media. Passed experience has shown me that they would take that and run it into insane exaggeration. They do it with GTA, and they'd do it with this game as well. I believe they call it, "sensationalist" media? Something like that.

Frankly I don't care. Put women in the game, leave them out, it doesn't matter to me because I don't play FPS games.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I'm more amazed at USA for pretending it won WWI single-handed. They were barely in it! They only fought the last few months.

You do know that DICE is a Swedish company right?

You do know that DICE is a subsidiary of an American company right?

Yes. So EA made this decision? They went public with it? I'm honestly curious, did they make an announcement for that somewhere?

A subsidiary is a company that is owned or controlled by another company. EA owns and controls DICE.

In other words no, they did not announce if this was their decision. Well, that's all I had to hear, thank you for your time.

Sure. In other news from Amazing Stories, employees don't have to answer to their bosses now.

To be fair, it's not exactly hard to imagine DICE doing this without the influence of EA, there are plenty of companies based completely outside the U.S. That still shamelessly pander to American audiences. Ubisoft loves jacking off Americans in its war games despite being a French company.

America is a massive market that's mostly homogenous, and isnt as insular as Japanese markets or as piracy prone as Chinese markets. War games sell especially well in America, so there is incentive to pander to Americans.

While it's certainly possible that EA has some influence, I wouldn't put it past DICE to have made the decision on their own, the battlefield series has always featured the U.S. Very prominently, and is popular in the US, DICE likely knows that without EA telling them anything.

My point is DICE *is* EA. Electronic Arts Digital Illusions Creative Entertainment. They're an extension of an American company.

 

[McMarbles]

Just to be clear, nothing has actually happened, right?

But it might! And as we know, the possibility that somehow, somewhere, a feminist might develop an opinion about something is LITERALLY THE WORST POSSIBLE THING.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

I seem to recall your point being that Americans were being full of themselves. If DICE did this on their own, that makes your comment being rather baseless.

 

[Leg End]

EA being EA, nothing much to see(or say) here. But at least it fits historically.
Though, if they chose to keep the idea in, having a female fighting somewhere against X while not necessarily enlisted can work. Civilians fight too.

EDIT: I'm more amazed at USA for pretending it won WWI single-handed. They were barely in it!

But we still got to sit at the big boys table!

But really, where are you seeing/hearing this? I'll slap anyone that says it because we did almost jack. WWII you can at least be in the same ballpark when you say "we did a fuckton, m8". People might in fact be confusing it for WWII.

 

[visiblenoise]

This type of issue was hardly titillating the first time it happened. What left is there to discuss? Let EA be EA.

 

[Exley97_v1legacy]

snip

You're absolutely right. None of this has happened yet. Hell none of this might ever happen. Actually....we can be assured that it wont, because they aren't putting women in battlefield.

They did, actually.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-06-13-battlefield-1-preview

So there is no reason to have a discussion because it is literally a discussion about nothing.

And yet...

My judgements are basis solely on past experiences, so all I can do is guess about how things will go down. But isn't that all anyone on this thread can do? Guess?

No. You can do a lot more than guess. You can provide facts, cite source material or articles, and offer examples of actual arguments made by, say, Sarkeesian instead of using perceived arguments.

Guess why DICE pulled women from the game, guess how people would have reacted if they had been left in the game? It's all guessing and hypothetical work.

No, it's not really just guess work: http://www.pcgamesn.com/battlefield-1/battlefield-1-scrapped-female-soldiers-because-boys-don-t-believe-in-them-says-ex-dice-coder

And my guess is that people would have a problem directly shooting other women in the face. Not the players mind you, but media. Passed experience has shown me that they would take that and run it into insane exaggeration. They do it with GTA, and they'd do it with this game as well. I believe they call it, "sensationalist" media? Something like that.

I humbly suggest, for your own peace of mind, that you wait until such media sensationalism occurs

Frankly I don't care. Put women in the game, leave them out, it doesn't matter to me because I don't play FPS games.

Your 9 previous posts in this thread suggest otherwise.

 

[cikame]

CORRECTION, they said there wouldn't be female soldiers in the MULTIPLAYER, there's totally at least 1 female soldier in the single player i.e. the lady riding the horse in the first trailer.
Despite this being a slightly exaggerated view of WW1, they've decided not to stray from the fact that there were few to no female soldiers on the front lines in this period. If Russia appears as a faction in the multiplayer i could see female soldiers making an appearance, but without the right context it would be odd if every other British or German soldier was a woman.
I think a story centered around a women's platoon in either WW1 or 2 would be cool, but it would have to be an entirely fictional story if they were to be thrust onto the front lines.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

EDIT: I'm more amazed at USA for pretending it won WWI single-handed. They were barely in it!

But we still got to sit at the big boys table!

But really, where are you seeing/hearing this? I'll slap anyone that says it because we did almost jack. WWII you can at least be in the same ballpark when you say "we did a fuckton, m8". People might in fact be confusing it for WWII.

They announced you won't get to play as Russia or France in multiplayer - you know, the countries that did most of the fighting.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Snip

I seem to recall your point being that Americans were being full of themselves. If DICE did this on their own, that makes your comment being rather baseless.

DICE is a subsidiary of an American parent company. DICE works for Americans, answers to Americans, represents Americans.