Feminists, we need to talk about fedoras

[Riot3000]

Yeah it came from reddit and reddit can't let it go. I mean it went back to full frontal jabs at fat people, expecting everyman to dress in dockers and collared or else, ladies with first world dating problems being taking as "serious" and don't get me started on that unpopular opinion puffin. Funny 4chan where these apparent "fedora" guys reside is a better spot than reddit.

I disagree.

There's a historical context to consider here. Slut-shaming has a very real, very concrete and sad precedent. Shaming women for taking some measure of pride in their sexuality has been a weapon used by troglodytes since forever, and is in many ways tied directly to rape-culture.

Fedora-shaming, on the other hand, is in no ways tied to men's sexuality, and even if it was, the historical context would be different. The shaming would be an act reclaiming, not oppressing. In reality, tho, the fedora, an entirely non-practical garment, unlike the mini-skirt, is derided for its symbolical value and the traditions it represents, not its ties to men's sexuality.

Also, it makes you look like a twat-nugget.


EDIT: Aaaaaand I just saw the picture of you with a fedora. Haha sorryyyyy, you obviously in no way look like a twat-nugget, you look quite lovely. My point was entirely directed at the dudes, promise.

Point form because clearly you're far to biased too digest anything else.
1. So we're just making this fedora shaming thing up like people aren't judging based on what should be an arbitrary piece of clothing? /s
2. It's still tied to the gender. So comes under the auspices of sexism, sexuality notwithstanding.
3. Short skirts being tied to slut shaming is a recent thing. Slut shaming is at least a century old, they are not one and the same thank you. There is your "historical context"
4. Funny how you back pedal once you see a real person attached to some ideal you dislike. Imagine if you did that before you opened your mouth..

Now to everyone else..

It's a fucking hat, stop establishing symbolism with something when it isn't there, especially considering the fedora or trilby is splashed all over pop culture at the moment. As movie bob says, It is stuff, and stuff is not inherently evil nor a symbol of it. FFS

This all comes under judging a book by it's cover.

Otherwise wear what you want. People should mind their own business.

I am with Deadcyde its a hat I mean its people are going out their way to attach some stigma and hate to it. It actually seems more en vogue to mock fedoras and all those stereotypes as some cheap sense of superiority which is ironic considering where all this apparent "hate" came from. Stay classy internet.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

D'awwww, you think misandry is a real thing, don't you?

Oh oh! I know how to respond to this! .../clears throat...

You not believing Misandry is real is proof that Misandry is real.

Bam! Nailed it! I learned that from Feminism 101.

 

[MatsVS]

Condescension really doesn't help anyone, particularly when the person you're being condescending to has raised some perfectly reasonable points/questions. If you disagree with them, explain why in a calm, reasonable manner. Not everyone who disagrees with you in a feminism debate is "the enemy" or a rabid, lost cause MRA.

Secondly, sexism against men certainly does exist, and it doesn't harm my standing as a feminist to admit as much. It's like racism again white people: certainly not as rampant as misogyny/racism against POC, and usually on an individual rather than an institutional or societal level, but it exists to a certain extent.

Third, I'll agree with the others who've commented on your reaction to my photo. Gotta admit, I laughed. "I'm just talking about the dudes, honest"? Ok then, what about my dad, who I've already mentioned in this thread as my inspiration for wearing a fedora? He's a fifty-something doctor who rocks a whole series of fedoras and straw Panama hats as his signature look. Maybe you just meant younger dudes then? I have a friend who's a pretty sharp-dressed man with a thing for vintage fashion (he's infinitely more into fashion than I am - yay for role reversal ). When he wears a fedora he does it the old-fashioned way, with a suit. He looks great, in no way sleazy or socially awkward. Just overweight, bearded gamers who match their trilbies with jeans and a graphic t-shirt? Well, we're getting incredibly specific here but hell, I've known a few guys who match that description and they were in no way misogynistic.

If you think fedoras make people look like twats that's entirely your call, and please don't feel obliged to make an exception for me just because it'd be a bit awkward otherwise. I think people who wear trainers outside the gym look silly, but that doesn't mean I can judge their personalities or beliefs. Plus I used to have long, bright blue hair, so what do I know?

Excuse me? I'm the condescending one, when he opened his post like this: "Point form because clearly you're far to biased too digest anything else.", and closed it like this: "Imagine if you did that before you opened your mouth.." ? Yeah, that's a fertile soil for a good debate right there. :\ Sometimes, valid points are ignored if they're given by someone obviously not arguing in good faith.

That said, the point made against my original post seems to imply that shaming women for wearing mini-skirts somehow differs from slut-shaming in a broader sense, and I am not sure I understand why that would be the case.

I don't think sexism against men is in any way a relevant issue in a broader societal sense, just as I don't believe racism against white people is a thing at all. You can be bigoted and prejudiced against white people, but for as long as we remain the majority power, trying to claim that "reverse racism" is an actual thing only undermines the actual issues POC have to deal with every day. Which of course mirrors how men are trying usurp the gender debate by claiming that "reverse sexism", or "misandry", is a real thing. It's a diversionary tactic.

Well, I'm sorry my reaction to your photo did not convince you of the intentions of my original post. I was under the impression that fedora-shaming was a predominately male "problem", so assuming that I was in fact talking about dudes hardly seems like a stretch to me. Eh, it's not really important. As for your dad, I don't really think older gentlemen are relevant to the issue, as they're not influencing the zeitgeist in the same way budding generations do. Why we need to pin-point further when a fedora is or is not worthy of mockery seems like a futile exercise to me. It is what it is and it represents what it represents.

Lastly, and forgive me if I'm wrong here, but when we're judging people for wearing a fedora, we're not really taking it to the point where we're assuming they're bad people, are we? I mean, let's not exaggerate the dimension of the phenomena here. This is a case of pointing out a piece of garment that has unfortunate implications

I would very much like to see you address Deadcyde's points, though, especially point #2 about slut shaming.

And I, too, found it rather funny how you went for a no-holds-barred-beat-down on that piece of clothing until you saw one particular picture, at which point it looked like you were suddenly fawning over it. It really just made it look as if what you wrote in your post up to that point actually wasn't your own opinion, but more like an opinion you figured would, for the lack of a better expression, give you more likes.

I mean, if you make an absolute statement, then make an exception to it because of one picture, I'd not say making an absolute statement was a good idea.

Wait, point #2 or #3?

As for the "fawning" and "likes"... Not really sure what to make of that. What I said was quite true, but attaching further significance to that seems childish.

 

[Eamar]

Excuse me? I'm the condescending one, when he opened his post like this: "Point form because clearly you're far to biased too digest anything else.", and closed it like this: "Imagine if you did that before you opened your mouth.." ? Yeah, that's a fertile soil for a good debate right there. :\ Sometimes, valid points are ignored if they're given by someone obviously not arguing in good faith.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and he at least tried to engage with your points, whereas you went straight to making accusations that had nothing to do with his.

I don't think sexism against men is in any way a relevant issue in a broader societal sense, just as I don't believe racism against white people is a thing at all.

I specifically said those things don't exist on anything like the same scale as "regular" sexism and racism, but refusing to address them at all just comes off as dickish. It doesn't hurt you to admit that some people on "our" side are less than perfect too.

"reverse racism" ... "reverse sexism"

Ok, this really bugs me. Racism means discriminating against someone because of their race. Sexism means discriminating against someone because of their sex. They are not exclusive to specific races or sexes/genders, nor are they required to be on a societal scale. Prejudice against white people or men isn't "reverse" anything, it's straight up racism or sexism.

undermines the actual issues POC have to deal with every day.

How? Admitting that other people have problems doesn't take away from your own problems, so long as you're keeping things in perspective (which admittedly not everyone does). It's not a freakin' competition.

Which of course mirrors how men are trying usurp the gender debate by claiming that "reverse sexism", or "misandry", is a real thing. It's a diversionary tactic.

Please explain to me how this is not misandry: http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

This person believes that every time a man inserts his penis into a vagina, regardless of context and consent, it is rape. She is calling all straight, non-virginal men rapists. And this isn't just one crazy person on the internet - there are entire (thankfully minor) branches of radical feminism built around this sort of thinking, and they're the ones who are particularly damaging to feminism as a whole. The rest of us can deny this sort of thing all we want, but it's only going to make us look dishonest and like we're somehow justifying those stances. Better to admit its existence and assert our differences than attempt to sweep the whole thing under the rug and lose our credibility.

Lastly, and forgive me if I'm wrong here, but when we're judging people for wearing a fedora, we're not really taking it to the point where we're assuming they're bad people, are we?

That's precisely what my OP was talking about. As I've said several times, I have witnessed people seriously accusing others of misogyny purely on the grounds that they wear this hat, and not just on the internet either.

 

[marioandsonic]

Yeah, I never got the whole "fedora" meme either. Especially now, since people on other message boards try to link it to autism or atheism, which makes no fucking sense. How are any of those things related?

EDIT: Also, I'm glad I don't wear hats in general, lol.

 

[MatsVS]

Two wrongs don't make a right, and he at least tried to engage with your points, whereas you went straight to making accusations that had nothing to do with his.

I don't make a habit of debating people indiscriminately, no, but I should've ignored rather than antagonized, 'tis true. I apologize for bringing disharmony to your thread, if not for failing to engage. (I am... biased towards my own opinion? Mmm, ok, I guess.)

I specifically said those things don't exist on anything like the same scale as "regular" sexism and racism, but refusing to address them at all just comes off as dickish. It doesn't hurt you to admit that some people on "our" side are less than perfect too.

I haven't denied that people on our side can be less than perfect, tho, have I? And it's scale, exactly, that's the main factor when we're talking about racism. This addresses your points below too, I hope. What makes racism insidious in the first place is that it's institutional and systemic. When you remove that aspect of it, it's just... a person being a dick. So what? The struggle against racism and sexism is not about people's personal likes or dislikes, that's immaterial, it's about dealing with systems of oppression. If we start treating every anecdote about a white person getting the short end of the stick, we'll only dilute the issue. That's what I meant when I called it a diversionary tactic.

Oh, I guess I should clarify that I am a intersectional feminist of the Marxist school of thought. If that's an ideology you fundamentally disagree with, that would go a long way in explaining our differences of opinion here.

Ok, this really bugs me. Racism means discriminating against someone because of their race. Sexism means discriminating against someone because of their sex. They are not exclusive to specific races or sexes/genders, nor are they required to be on a societal scale. Prejudice against white people or men isn't "reverse" anything, it's straight up racism or sexism.

undermines the actual issues POC have to deal with every day.

How? Admitting that other people have problems doesn't take away from your own problems, so long as you're keeping things in perspective (which admittedly not everyone does). It's not a freakin' competition.

Which of course mirrors how men are trying usurp the gender debate by claiming that "reverse sexism", or "misandry", is a real thing. It's a diversionary tactic.

Please explain to me how this is not misandry: http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

This person believes that every time a man inserts his penis into a vagina, regardless of context and consent, it is rape. She is calling all straight, non-virginal men rapists. And this isn't just one crazy person on the internet - there are entire (thankfully minor) branches of radical feminism built around this sort of thinking, and they're the ones who are particularly damaging to feminism as a whole. The rest of us can deny this sort of thing all we want, but it's only going to make us look dishonest and like we're somehow justifying those stances. Better to admit its existence and assert our differences than attempt to sweep the whole thing under the rug and lose our credibility.

You're right, that's insidious as fuck, but there's many feminists I disagree with. For instance, there's a school of thought that preaches that all cultural appropriation by white people is inherently the same as blackface. Maybe you read the articles about white belly dancers on Salon.com? Or Requires Only That You Hate's view on fantasy literature? Weird stuff for sure, but I don't think that outliers like this should be allowed to dictate the terms of the broader debate.

Though that said, it is certainly not our place to try and silence them.

Lastly, and forgive me if I'm wrong here, but when we're judging people for wearing a fedora, we're not really taking it to the point where we're assuming they're bad people, are we?

That's precisely what my OP was talking about. As I've said several times, I have witnessed people seriously accusing others of misogyny purely on the grounds that they wear this hat, and not just on the internet either.

My apologies, I thought your OP (this line, specifically: "whereby people are judged or mocked for wearing said headgear, actively discouraged from purchasing or wearing them, or, in the best case scenario, have to qualify and defend their choice of hat.") was about general mocking of the fedora, and pointing out its unfortunate associations, not liking people who wear it to misogynists.

Umm, I hope I've clarified my stance a little here, or have I left something out?

 

[Deadcyde]

I haven't denied that people on our side

Our side? People are people, there are no sides.

The reason I called you biased was because your first post was condescending and you favoured one opinion (short skirt judging is degrading) over another (fedora/trilby judging is degrading)

This is a problem with feminism. (Sure, there's radfems and what not, but the bigoted hate is generally a minority.)

The idea of feminism is the achieve female equality or gender equality or even equality as a whole. Now some people dispute feminism based simply on why don't they call themselves egalitarians if they actually care about equality, but that's semantics. However they do tend to point out one issue that even the title feminism seems to point to, feminists generally ignore one issue in favour of another. This most often manifests in focusing on women's issues rather then anyone else's. Now I'm not disputing that women's issues are worse and do require some focus, but not to the exclusion of all other genders issues.

Basically the point is to achieve equality, everyone must be brought up to the same level, never diminished, and each issue has a bearing on all of the other issues. That's half the reason why even reasonable men seem to be so resistant; because it alienates them by ignoring their issues. You'll notice I said "feminists generally" earlier, that's because there is exceptions to the rule. There are feminists who don't focus on issues to the exclusions of others, just like there is MRA's who's only concern is to do the same, focus on both men and women's issues and simply exist to remind the world that men have issues too.

But that being said, everyone here is at least willing to discuss it at least. Rather then simply hurl insults and let their passions rule their reason, and that... that is a great thing.

EDIT: spelling and some punctuation.

 

[Deadcyde]

Yeah, I never got the whole "fedora" meme either. Especially now, since people on other message boards try to link it to autism or atheism, which makes no fucking sense. How are any of those things related?

EDIT: Also, I'm glad I don't wear hats in general, lol.

try finding my post. Its involves an atheist reddit board that got hijacked by misogynistic creepers that choose it as a symbol to try to make themselves seem more classy and more "intelligent" despite the fact they are basically very creepy people.

It devolved into 4chan level crap about how they are better than everyone, how they are nonconformist, and how they are hated and feared for it. The board got purged in the form of banning it from the front page.

Its now a hated symbol, even by athiests. because it implies the person knows about reddit and therefore was part of the community who hijacked their board to talk about how society hates them because they are "better."

Its now a joke, and tied to cringey teens and bitter young men because of that fiasco.

The board is now back to being a board about atheists, though.

So basically it boils down to being a flash in the pan, and not a symbol after all.

Seriously, people need to stop doing this; acting like it some sort of "thing" when clearly it's a minority of nothingness given slight recognition by contemporary media.

Also, you speak to other peoples motives too much dude. You need to stop, as someone who goes on Reddit and is atheist I certainly don't agree with the assertions you made on my behalf. Thank you.

 

[Vault101]

[snip

focusing on womens rights and womens rights alone IS THE WHOLE POINT of feminism, now that does cross over with issues that affect men (like ridgid gender roles) and theres no reason a man can't call himself a feminist (though thats a whole can of worms)

the thing is no one gives a crap about a social justice issue unless it somhow affects them, women need to speak out for their rights, gays need to speak out for their rights, racial minoritys need to speak out for their rights because white males (and often others in other groups) will NOT speak for them and to some extent is unable to speak for them because "they" may not understand what it is to be something different

I always feel when people say "I rather elgaitarianism to feminism" I see it as saying "could we all just be eaqual so you people will stop talking about your issues?"

 

[PainInTheAssInternet]

Please explain to me how this is not misandry: http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

Ironically, that blog is the most misogynist thing I have ever read.

Apparently, all women are brainwashed and helpless. They can never engage or enjoy sex. Men are the dominant force by default 100% of the time and a woman's only hope is to avoid them for they will fall easily.

 

[MrHide-Patten]

The Fedora (or Trilby?) is akin to the leopard print. Gaudy, I'm not going to stop you wearing it, but I am always going to have an eyebrow cocked, and hesitation to questions such as; 'Do I look alright'?


They need to die, like leg warmers and massive hair.

 

[Vault101]

.reddit drama.

oh man I was there...it started as some feud between pcmasterrace and /r/gaming resulting in master race getting deleted. seems like the mod in question was just an "anti pc gamer" type due to pcmasterrace (which to be fair is a circlejerk sub that gets old after 5 minutes)

 

[Vault101]

massive hair.

some of us have "massive" hair naturally

 

[ender1200]

Please explain to me how this is not misandry: http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

Ironically, that blog is the most misogynist thing I have ever read.

Apparently, all women are brainwashed and helpless. They can never engage or enjoy sex. Men are the dominant force by default 100% of the time and a woman's only hope is to avoid them for they will fall easily.

Funny how something can be both misandric and misogynist at the same time. "The desposable male" attitude is very much the same in this regard, on one hand it piant man as les important making they death less of a tragedy, but on the other hand it assume that woman are inharitly either halpless and needing man to save them from peril and\or derive their worth from their status as "property" of those who defend them.

As for fadoras. I am most bothered by how some people use the "image" of a fat fedora wearing man with "neckbeard" as a way to dehumanise and other people who they don't agree with. This is te thing that really ticks me off.

 

[Karadalis]

Huh.. seeing Eanmar with that hat made me wonder why not more females wear hats in general.. it looks good.

Well i guess Fedoras have their own stigma nowadays... just like cheerleaders have a certain stigma to them... (the blonde bimbo mean spirited girl)

While ofcourse mostly overblown both these stigma didnt apear out of thin air, but wearing a fedora/being cheerleader alone for itselfe is no reason to ridicule anyone in my opinion.

That only starts after they start talking

 

[DjinnFor]

TL;DR: My belief is this: if you're against shaming women for their choice of clothing, quit shaming men for wearing hats. Do you agree? Or have I completely missed the point somewhere? Discuss!

The point is that it seems most ideological feminists fundamentally don't believe in any of the feminist ideology on principle, only when doing so serves to benefit women. Feminists appear to be okay with rape, genital mutilation, domestic violence, body policing, sexuality shaming et cetera (to list some of the common feminist talking points), as long as it's men as victims. At least, the ideologues who run the major internet websites, head the major feminist organizations, and perform the bulk of what passes for feminist "scientific" literature appear to, which is why they don't talk about male victims of any key feminist issue even when there is gender parity, or proactively marginalize them if ever brought up. Even suicide, widely recognized as a gendered issue for males, is marginalized when analyzed through the feminist lens.

So to apply this to the current example, feminists will sexually shame ("you're just a virgin living in his mothers basement, oh and you're a creep too gtfo") and body police ("fat white dude with a fedora") men, because doing so doesn't hurt women. This is especially prevalent when said individuals question feminist hegemony or ideology; feminist ideologues appear to put great stock in emotions, so when somebody says something that they disagree with, they feel validated when their flight-or-fight response kicks in and they emotionally attack the target group.

 

[Vault101]

The point is that it seems most ideological feminists fundamentally don't believe in any of the feminist ideology on principle, only when doing so serves to benefit women.

feminist ideology is fundamentally about womens issues so...that doesn't make much sense

[quote/]Feminists appear to be okay with rape, genital mutilation, domestic violence, body policing, sexuality shaming et cetera (to list some of the common feminist talking points), as long as it's men as victims.[/quote]

hmmm

[spoiler/][img/]http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb437/Vault10191/XCOM_Wrong_zps7403c07d.gif[/img][/spoiler]

WRRRRROOOOOOooooooonnngggg

 

[MalkavianLunatic]

Personally, I think it's foolish to shame anyone over something so silly like what they choose to wear. Clothing styles and trends come and go; people should be judged on their actions, if anything.

That said, while I did think the example with the miniskirt was easy to grasp, you can't really overlook the idea that women have had to deal with such issues for longer than men wearing fedoras (or, if you want to be technical, trillby, since most of the men I've seen calling their hats a 'fedora' don't seem to understand the difference). And that's not even getting into the idea that some of these guys who choose to wear these hats (which I think are kind of cute, actually) behave in such a way that it's become more than a clothing choice-- it's become a symbol of that irritating group of men who put on their hats and complain endlessly about being "friendzoned" and how they're such "nice guys".

I'm not saying that all women who wear miniskirts are innocent victims and I'm not going to say that all men who wear fedoras and trillbies are misogynistic jerks. However, the most verbal of jerks have turned the hat style into one more box to tick off when first impressions come around. It's sad and it's wrong, but unfortunately it seems to be part of the trend presently. I'm not trying to offend anyone, but that's just my personal experience and observation.

 

[DjinnFor]

feminist ideology is fundamentally about womens issues so...that doesn't make much sense

Just because feminism is about "womens issues" does not require it to be a supremacist hate group that lacks principles. If that doesn't make sense to you I don't know what else to say.

hmmm

WRRRRROOOOOOooooooonnngggg

It's nice to see I struck a nerve, and I was correct in predicting a flight-or-flight emotional attack. Thanks for adding nothing at all whatsoever to the discussion. When you have an argument, criticism, or question regarding anything I've written, let me know.

 

[marioandsonic]

Yeah, I never got the whole "fedora" meme either. Especially now, since people on other message boards try to link it to autism or atheism, which makes no fucking sense. How are any of those things related?

EDIT: Also, I'm glad I don't wear hats in general, lol.

try finding my post. Its involves an atheist reddit board that got hijacked by misogynistic creepers that choose it as a symbol to try to make themselves seem more classy and more "intelligent" despite the fact they are basically very creepy people.

It devolved into 4chan level crap about how they are better than everyone, how they are nonconformist, and how they are hated and feared for it. The board got purged in the form of banning it from the front page.

Its now a hated symbol, even by athiests. because it implies the person knows about reddit and therefore was part of the community who hijacked their board to talk about how society hates them because they are "better."

Its now a joke, and tied to cringey teens and bitter young men because of that fiasco.

The board is now back to being a board about atheists, though.

So basically it boils down to being a flash in the pan, and not a symbol after all.

Seriously, people need to stop doing this; acting like it some sort of "thing" when clearly it's a minority of nothingness given slight recognition by contemporary media.

Also, you speak to other peoples motives too much dude. You need to stop, as someone who goes on Reddit and is atheist I certainly don't agree with the assertions you made on my behalf. Thank you.

The people that came into that board and took it over were no more atheist than those "white kid cholos" who weren't actual cholos that popped up in the 90s. Even though the image of the cholo they were emulating is sorta anachronistic.

There is a reason its the biggest joke on the atheist board, just like console gamers pretending they own a "quad firelevel PC" is the joke of PC gamer related reddits.

Unless your ONLY reason to be atheist is to be "cool" then you are safe. You shouldn't suddenly be offended when I say an atheist board was taken over by people who weren't atheist in the first place. You should know what side you are on. Its obvious who I am talking about: The creepers who came into an atheist board and turned it into a mish mash of tumblr, MRA, pseudo red pill, and fads. Because it was "niche" and therefore "cool."

The board ended up worse than all the other boards on the front page and had been for a while. It wasn't until recently when the board was taken off the front page did they go away.

Which is why I stressed that the board is back to normal NOW. That the board is far better off now than it was during the fedora craze. Which leads me to believe you didn't even read my post.

It wasn't a flash in the pan, it was a problem that plagued a front page board for a while. Just like how /R/ Gaming was made fun of when one of its moderators turned out to not be a gamer at all and started banning anyone with a PC because "pcs are for taxes. They aren't for games."

Reddit is extremely popular and a symbol that comes up in the popular opinion, however infrequently, it stays up forever.

Furries have to deal with people who think their "secret cult" conventions have wild unprotected orgies with actual animals. From a SINGLE episode from an old TV show that aired, what, 10 years ago?

PC gamers get shit because of a litany of falsehoods about technology that people get from NCIS and other shows. people still think PC gamers are stuck in 1992 and have gigantic brains even though the truth is far from it.

Console gamers get flak because of the screaming homophobic kiddies who supposedly plagued XBL. Or rather, the youtube videos of XBL because you only record when stuff goes very wrong.

Bronies are thought to be "mentally disabled" or seen as pedophiles. Because of that one brony who was disabled got recognition from the people that made MLP. People made that one individual to represent an entire demographic.

A lot of things get put into the cultural mind based on a few or a single instance. The fedora is up there, and it was a very public instance that dates back all the way back to 2012. It was the front page of reddit, that isn't private. No more private than being plastered on the front page of facebook.

There is a reason the fedora is laughed at in the atheist board now. The people that tried to adopt it did more damage to atheists than anything else.

granted, the fedora hate started way earlier but reddit reminded everyone why the fedora isn't liked.

This is basically just back round history. They asked why the fedora is laughed at and why it was linked to atheism, I answered.

Oh, believe me, I've heard this one.

Anyway, thanks for clearing that issue up for me. Sadly, once something like that has happened and is associated to your group or clique, that stigma rarely ever goes away.