Femme Armor Sacrifices Safety for Sex Appeal

Feb 13, 2008
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thaluikhain said:
Um...he's not going off to fight anyone dressed like that.


They all are.
I could also include Sambo, Savate, Wing Chun...in fact the only fighting art that needs armour is Bushido, AFAICR. (Some of the Military Martial Arts make use of it, but don't require it)

It's impractical for people to wear much clothing if they're involved in strenuous exercise. Although it's even more stupid to put a little bit on just to appease the CCA. Big boobs would seriously restrict your fighting prowess though without a LOT of support.
 

Thaluikhain

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The_root_of_all_evil said:
They all are.
I could also include Sambo, Savate, Wing Chun...in fact the only fighting art that needs armour is Bushido, AFAICR. (Some of the Military Martial Arts make use of it, but don't require it)

It's impractical for people to wear much clothing if they're involved in strenuous exercise. Although it's even more stupid to put a little bit on just to appease the CCA. Big boobs would seriously restrict your fighting prowess though without a LOT of support.
Ok, true, but in that case you'd see everyone wearing mostly similar amounts of clothing, and it's not intended to provide much protection.

The female chainmail bikini is supposed to provide the same amount of protection as the chainmail shirt worn by men, which is the problem. If everyone was to run round half naked, there'd wouldn't be this issue.
 

jmarquiso

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socialmenace42 said:
It's amazing that this has been true since the dawn of fantasy games. apparently we're all twelve...
It's been true since the Fantasy art of the 50's.
 

Soak

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The_root_of_all_evil said:
Seventh Actuality said:
Chainmail bikini jokes? Cutting edge, CH, really pushing back the fucking boundaries. >.>
For sure...Thrud the Barbarian was doing those jokes back in '81.
And that's what is making it even worse, that it's still a valid proposition, as if the emancipation of women never started, or modern gender discussions were non-existent.

Samus Aran on the other hand is one of the few exceptions (or was for some time), because her sex wasn't important at all in the first game(s) and its reveal at the end had a rather interesting impact, because it was "okay", like "it's a tough person standing (her) ground, who is female, so what?", which could be considered a very educated view on gender. You could say, Samus was only recently reduced to her sex, by showing her "all sexy in zero-suite" and giving her the whiny role, having father-issues with her former boss and child-issues with her baby metriod, exspacialy in "Other M", poor thing [blech].
Unfortunately, this reduction of women to sex symbols, or the more or less helpless person (princess who has to be rescued) is common for most games, or the quota females in some other games, which isn't better at all.

The questions behind this are: Why? Aren't we, as a community, better than this? What's with our educated view on violence, sociality, art and such in games? Why stop at sex?
And i'm not against women who like to show how sexy they are, but against women being reduced to this.
 

jmarquiso

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I have to mention that the picture of Princess Leia in the link to this article is inappropriate. She WAS wearing a slave outfit there, not armor.
 

TheLastTatlFan

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It's very rare that College Humor will get a laugh out of me. This skit is no exception. It's like if Family Guy's writers were even bigger nerds.
 

CorvusFerreum

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banksy122 said:
A lot of people seem to think Females wear [...] Chain mail is also terrible armour, it only is effective against arrows.
[...]
Isn't chainmail extremely ineffective against arrows? For all I know piercing weapons are the main weakness of chainmail (because the rings can be bursted open quite easy, even if they are riveted).
Maille protects mainly against cut wounds.
 
Feb 13, 2008
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Soak said:
The questions behind this are: Why? Aren't we, as a community, better than this?
We are.

The entire history of this movement though is based on these cliches. They are what sells. This is what they'll sell us this on. This is why Jersey Shore gets a new series, while thought provoking shows die.

But we're still making the same old jokes as if it's someone else's fault.
thaluikhain said:
Ok, true, but in that case you'd see everyone wearing mostly similar amounts of clothing, and it's not intended to provide much protection.
And you would, if the people behind these things didn't know that one scrap of metal boosts sales by 10x, due to modern images of sexuality being so damn frustrating.

Actually no, they've always been like that. Look at half the Greek statues that were day glo colours with massive cocks.
The female chainmail bikini is supposed to provide the same amount of protection as the chainmail shirt worn by men, which is the problem. If everyone was to run round half naked, there'd wouldn't be this issue.
There would. Modern sensibilities. Janet Jackson shows a boob. ZOMG!!!! A flaccid penis appears ZOMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But...chuck a shirt on a guy and a couple of triangles on a girl and you've got a show that appeals to anyone.

It's all about the ratings. Historical accuracy, Laws of Physics or Gender Equality come a VERY poor second to Ratings.
Soak said:
Unfortunately, this reduction of women to sex symbols,
Sorry, it's not the reduction of women to sex symbols. It's the reduction of people to cash signs. Whatever they want to dress people in to get the most exposure, they'll do. As I've shown above, semi-nakedness is actually pretty accurate for melee fighters.
 

Thaluikhain

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CorvusFerreum said:
banksy122 said:
A lot of people seem to think Females wear [...] Chain mail is also terrible armour, it only is effective against arrows.
[...]
Isn't chainmail extremely ineffective against arrows? For all I know piercing weapons are the main weakness of chainmail (because the rings can be bursted open quite easy, even if they are riveted).
Maille protects mainly against cut wounds.
Well, that and you can get thin blades to slip through (depending on the quality of the armour), which people designed for that purpose.

Also, it's fairly flexible, which means it doesn't do that much to stop blunt impacts. If you are hit with something sharp, you might not get cut, but you feel the impact much the same.
 

TheDooD

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Here's my two cents.

Look at Conan the Barbarian and Red Sonia would you yell and scream about "realism" after you know the shit they did wearing basically nothing. Please people stop trying to shoehorn real life logic into fantasy settings where people can turn into dragons and shoot lightning and fire from their fingers. If your mind can grasp the concept of magic yet its the fact they aren't wearing logical armor. If that's the reason you didn't like the character, artwork, setting, etc. I'm sorry but it's your fault you don't like it not the artist. I say this because it you that complaining about realism when you know good and well a majority of logic was tossed out the window during the opening cutscenes and or backstory.
 

CorvusFerreum

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thaluikhain said:
CorvusFerreum said:
Also, it's fairly flexible, which means it doesn't do that much to stop blunt impacts. If you are hit with something sharp, you might not get cut, but you feel the impact much the same.
But it's practical anyway, since we are talking of a time were the smallest blood infection could kill you.
Also: two crushed ribs are better then having them intact, but with a piece of metal in between. :D
 

Thaluikhain

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The_root_of_all_evil said:
And you would, if the people behind these things didn't know that one scrap of metal boosts sales by 10x, due to modern images of sexuality being so damn frustrating.

Actually no, they've always been like that. Look at half the Greek statues that were day glo colours with massive cocks.
Actually, Greek statues often had odd proportions of musculature, but a large penis was something to be mocked (you see those in greek comedies). Heroically proportion penises were fairly small.

The_root_of_all_evil said:
There would. Modern sensibilities. Janet Jackson shows a boob. ZOMG!!!! A flaccid penis appears ZOMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, yes, but I meant the original problem wouldn't be there. you would be stuck with something else instead.

The_root_of_all_evil said:
It's all about the ratings. Historical accuracy, Laws of Physics or Gender Equality come a VERY poor second to Ratings.
Yeah, true. But it's much more fun to blame developers than gamers, at least on gaming websites.

[small]I wonder if developers visit some secret forum and complain about the derivative rubbish the mindless hordes of gamers forces them to create[/small]
 

LorienvArden

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But it's just common sense !
High dexterity modifier + an armor with maximum distraction modifier > an armor that caps your dexterity and provides just marginally higher deflection.

I don't mind "sexy armor" when you have the option between "full plating" and "appealing plating". I do remember some fairly bad examples though that featured stuff like a full plate mail with a cleavage revealing centerpiece that looked neither functional nor appealing.

On the whole "women and real armor" discussion - with most women it ain't the breasts that make "male" armor uncomfortable but the hips. If you ever saw pictures of extreme corsages, you will understand that women can endure far worse then wearing a heavy breastplate. Even with Double D's under your shirt the worst would be some bruising. The slender waist and wider hips however give male armor too much freedom to move around, and thus chafing unless you wear extra padding under the plate. It's inconvinient, but in a situation where said plate could safe your life you wouldn't notice it.

Also, women are known to wear full armor and kick ass on the battlefield in Japan:
http://asianhistory.about.com/od/imagegalleries/ss/samuraiwomen.htm

While I haven't seen any historical armor designed for the female body, we worked on some designs for cosplay purposes that would have looked equally functional and distinct.
Perhaps it's the misconception of "naked skin equals sexappeal" that led to so many "+3 bikini mails". While you'ld want to acentuate the natural curves of a beautifull body, it should be possible to do so and to actually give it a heavy - protective look.

Guild wars has some good examples for both styles - bikiniplate(elite templar armor) and realplate (regular templar armor).
 
Feb 13, 2008
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thaluikhain said:
Actually, Greek statues often had odd proportions of musculature, but a large penis was something to be mocked (you see those in greek comedies). Heroically proportion penises were fairly small.
There was the openness towards homosexuality though. May have been a part to it.
[small]I wonder if developers visit some secret forum and complain about the derivative rubbish the mindless hordes of gamers forces them to create[/small]
There might be...there might be indeed.
 
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LorienvArden said:
While you'ld want to acentuate the natural curves of a beautifull body, it should be possible to do so and to actually give it a heavy - protective look.
Curves. Curves are hugely difficult to get right (as any designer for women's clothing will tell you)

Plate/Chain/Leather (Boiled leather is realistic? Bulldrek) all rely on a very average body shape, so I'd be as badly off in a suit of armour as most women.
 

RavenDraconis

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Viking women fought nude along side there men under the belief that it would upset there Cristian/Jewish/Muslim Enemy (Vikings are believed to be one of few Cultures were women were seen as equal). The viking men often wore no more then simple woolen or leather tunics. They both relied on the Round Shield and there weapons for defense (Also No horned helmets), as well as the speed and ferocity of there raids. Shock and Aww was not An U.S. Invention. That Having been said, the chain-mail bikini is a joke and nothing more. Armor is now as it has always been, pretty genderless.
 

Oroboros

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CorvusFerreum said:
banksy122 said:
A lot of people seem to think Females wear [...] Chain mail is also terrible armour, it only is effective against arrows.
[...]
Isn't chainmail extremely ineffective against arrows? For all I know piercing weapons are the main weakness of chainmail (because the rings can be bursted open quite easy, even if they are riveted).
Maille protects mainly against cut wounds.
Frm armor tests that I have seen, butted mail is worse then useless, and riveted mail, when combined with a gambeson, provides excellent protection. Most dark-age combat wounds were to the extremities for a reason.
 

Thaluikhain

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RavenDraconis said:
Viking women fought nude along side there men under the belief that it would upset there Cristian/Jewish/Muslim Enemy (Vikings are believed to be one of few Cultures were women were seen as equal). The viking men often wore no more then simple woolen or leather tunics. They both relied on the Round Shield and there weapons for defense (Also No horned helmets), as well as the speed and ferocity of there raids. Shock and Aww was not An U.S. Invention. That Having been said, the chain-mail bikini is a joke and nothing more. Armor is now as it has always been, pretty genderless.
Possibly more equal than most, but not equal to men. I've not heard anything about viking women fighting naked to offend people, do you have a source for that?

Oh, vikings did use chainmail, IIRC, except that it was very expensive and not something most people could get hold of. Even swords were fairly pricey, a spear uses far less metal (and time) to make, and is more useful in a shieldwall.

Though, because of expensive, it becomes a status symbol.

EDIT: There is (some) evidence to suggest Celtic warrior women, and it's believed that Celtic warriors may or may not have fought naked (there's not much in the way of reliable sources), or wore paint.

The Scythians, IIRC, had male and female horse archers, but they were all fully clad.

EDIT again:
Oroboros said:
Frm armor tests that I have seen, butted mail is worse then useless, and riveted mail, when combined with a gambeson, provides excellent protection. Most dark-age combat wounds were to the extremities for a reason.
That's not generally due to the armour, though, as most people couldn't afford it. The extremities are most vulnerable to attack. Your weapon arm is exposed to attack when you stick it out in front of you to attack someone (when two shield walls meet in re-enatcments, apparently this has something of a domino effect, as people would attack enemies' exposed weapon arm, and leave their own arms vulnerable to others).

Also, the lower legs aren't defended by the shield, and often present themselves as a target. This sort of thing had been going on since the days of the greek Hoplites, who wore armour on their lower, but not upper, legs because of this, and apparently people getting stabbed in the lower leg was often depicted in art from that time.
 

theguiltyone

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Dejawesp said:
So we got character shooting fireballs out of their hands. Dragons, Elves, Fairies, goblins and magic of all sorts but when a woman shows up in bikini armour that's when things start to seem unrealistic huh?
No, that's when it pushes past 'unrealistic' into 'just plain stupid'.

Good fantasy has a balance that's still grounded in something we can relate to and understand at its core, while suspending belief enough for the origins of creatures, magic, etc.

Emphasis on GOOD fantasy.