Final Fantasy 7 News

[Silvanus]

So there is a turn-based mode you can toggle if you want.

Basically the way the game works is you use basic attacks to fill your ATB gauge, using skills, magic, items, etc all require the use of 1 or 2 segments ATB bar (of which there are 2 total by default however this can be increased on a character with materia). So the combat is active in the sense that you want to use basic attacks + time to fill the bar quickly. If you don't attack the ATB bar still fills but much slower.

Now the turn-based mode is called "classic mode". In this mode, your characters will automatically do basic attacks and move around the battle-field while ai controled. Your only inputs are selecting the abilities they use once the ATB bars are filled. Effectively giving you a turn-based version of the game to play should you want too.

That's not turn-based, though; that's just a system of cool-downs and auto-attacks, a bit like Xenoblade Chronicles.

If the enemy is acting freely during this time, regardless of what you do, then it ain't turn-based.

 

[SupahEwok]

So there is a turn-based mode you can toggle if you want.

Basically the way the game works is you use basic attacks to fill your ATB gauge, using skills, magic, items, etc all require the use of 1 or 2 segments ATB bar (of which there are 2 total by default however this can be increased on a character with materia). So the combat is active in the sense that you want to use basic attacks + time to fill the bar quickly. If you don't attack the ATB bar still fills but much slower.

Now the turn-based mode is called "classic mode". In this mode, your characters will automatically do basic attacks and move around the battle-field while ai controled. Your only inputs are selecting the abilities they use once the ATB bars are filled. Effectively giving you a turn-based version of the game to play should you want too.

That's not turn-based, though; that's just a system of cool-downs and auto-attacks, a bit like Xenoblade Chronicles.

If the enemy is acting freely during this time, regardless of what you do, then it ain't turn-based.

Then neither was the original game.

 

[CritialGaming]

That's not turn-based, though; that's just a system of cool-downs and auto-attacks, a bit like Xenoblade Chronicles.

If the enemy is acting freely during this time, regardless of what you do, then it ain't turn-based.

OG FF7 is not turned based, it's time based.

The enemy attacks while you wait for your bar to fill in the original game. The same enemy will sometimes attack a few times before your bar can fill once. Not to mention spells that can speed up and slow the rate in which ATB bars can fill for both enemies and player characters.

So what are you trying to establish here?

 

[NerfedFalcon]

snip

So what are you trying to establish here?

As far as I can tell: "all change is automatically bad and Square should have just made updated models and background textures for the original game".

Honestly, the point of a remake is to change things. Maybe it won't work out as well, or it won't work for everyone, but it's better than just doing the exact same thing with different actors.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

So there is a turn-based mode you can toggle if you want.

Now the turn-based mode is called "classic mode". In this mode, your characters will automatically do basic attacks and move around the battle-field while ai controled. Your only inputs are selecting the abilities they use once the ATB bars are filled. Effectively giving you a turn-based version of the game to play should you want too.

Kinda sounds like FF12 where the characters will do everything on their own and you only make the "important" decisions. Square or nobody has ever gotten turn-based combat to be "fast and exciting" IMO because to make it fast, you have to take out loads of strategy while the combat never being as fun as actual action combat. I'm sure in normal battles, it won't even matter what you press for abilities so it comes down to; why am I even "playing" this? Boss battles can certainly have strategy to them but 90+% of fights aren't boss fights. I don't get why Square can't make a combat system turn-based with actual strategy or just go full-on action combat, pick one or the other. That's why Tactics is the best FF combat system, it chose a side instead of trying to do both, which doesn't work.

snip

So what are you trying to establish here?

As far as I can tell: "all change is automatically bad and Square should have just made updated models and background textures for the original game".

Honestly, the point of a remake is to change things. Maybe it won't work out as well, or it won't work for everyone, but it's better than just doing the exact same thing with different actors.

I don't get why you'd remake something and only up the graphics. So what if FF7 Remake or any remade ends up being absolute garbage because it changed things? You still have the original to play, it doesn't get deleted or anything.

Same thing happened with the RE2 Remake with people bitching you can't change the camera, it'll RUIN the game [https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.1037545-Kamiya-Brainless-camera-whiners-Over-the-shoulder-cam-is-fine?page=1], and RE2 Remake came out and was pretty much loved by like everyone.

 

[NerfedFalcon]

As far as I can tell: "all change is automatically bad and Square should have just made updated models and background textures for the original game".

Honestly, the point of a remake is to change things. Maybe it won't work out as well, or it won't work for everyone, but it's better than just doing the exact same thing with different actors.

I don't get why you'd remake something and only up the graphics. So what if FF7 Remake or any remade ends up being absolute garbage because it changed things? You still have the original to play, it doesn't get deleted or anything.

Same thing happened with the RE2 Remake with people bitching you can't change the camera, it'll RUIN the game [https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.1037545-Kamiya-Brainless-camera-whiners-Over-the-shoulder-cam-is-fine?page=1], and RE2 Remake came out and was pretty much loved by like everyone.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Hell, I really liked RE2make as well. The bit in quotes is me theorizing about somebody else's stance, but that's not what I think myself.

 

[Silvanus]

Then neither was the original game.

OG FF7 is not turned based, it's time based.

The enemy attacks while you wait for your bar to fill in the original game. The same enemy will sometimes attack a few times before your bar can fill once. Not to mention spells that can speed up and slow the rate in which ATB bars can fill for both enemies and player characters.

With the default/ recommended ATB settings, that's right, the original wasn't turn-based. With 'Wait' enabled, you could play it turn-based.

As far as I can tell: "all change is automatically bad and Square should have just made updated models and background textures for the original game".

Honestly, the point of a remake is to change things. Maybe it won't work out as well, or it won't work for everyone, but it's better than just doing the exact same thing with different actors.

Uhrm, no, that's not how I feel at all. I'm not sure how pointing out that it isn't turn-based (in response to a specific point someone made) indicates that I hate change for some reason.

I'm pretty unsure about FF7 remake's combat because it looks fairly similar to that in FF15, which I found shallow and unsatisfying, not because it's new or different. Innovation and redesign is often awesome: RE2 Remake is incredibly good.

 

[NerfedFalcon]

I'm pretty unsure about FF7 remake's combat because it looks fairly similar to that in FF15, which I found shallow and unsatisfying, not because it's new or different. Innovation and redesign is often awesome: RE2 Remake is incredibly good.

Alright, I'm sorry for oversimplifying your point of view, but based on what I've seen, I don't think it's that similar to 15's combat at all. Not that I played that much of 15 because I felt like 15 wasn't very good either, but I don't really get 15 vibes out of 7R, there's a lot that's different. Guess we'll know for sure as soon as an actual demo gets released, which I think should be soon? Hopefully.

I drafted a much longer post about everything that I felt was different, but I scrapped that. The playable demo, if it happens, will probably make a better case than I ever could.

 

[dscross]

So there is a turn-based mode you can toggle if you want.

Basically the way the game works is you use basic attacks to fill your ATB gauge, using skills, magic, items, etc all require the use of 1 or 2 segments ATB bar (of which there are 2 total by default however this can be increased on a character with materia). So the combat is active in the sense that you want to use basic attacks + time to fill the bar quickly. If you don't attack the ATB bar still fills but much slower.

Now the turn-based mode is called "classic mode". In this mode, your characters will automatically do basic attacks and move around the battle-field while ai controled. Your only inputs are selecting the abilities they use once the ATB bars are filled. Effectively giving you a turn-based version of the game to play should you want too.

I see. That's interesting - you've obviously done a lot of research into it. What's the crack with encounters etc? I'm assuming that will work with a standard open-world map, where you can see enemies and choose to fight them or not as opposed to random battles? Like in games like FF15, The Witcher III, Horizon Zero Dawn, BOTW etc?

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Hell, I really liked RE2make as well. The bit in quotes is me theorizing about somebody else's stance, but that's not what I think myself.

I got you, I was agreeing with you.

I'm pretty unsure about FF7 remake's combat because it looks fairly similar to that in FF15, which I found shallow and unsatisfying, not because it's new or different. Innovation and redesign is often awesome: RE2 Remake is incredibly good.

FF's traditional turn-based combat is shallow and unsatisfying too. Square needs to pick a side, either do good turn-based combat or do good action combat, stop trying to mesh the two, it doesn't work.

 

[CritialGaming]

I'm pretty unsure about FF7 remake's combat because it looks fairly similar to that in FF15, which I found shallow and unsatisfying, not because it's new or different. Innovation and redesign is often awesome: RE2 Remake is incredibly good.

Re-read post #60 where i explained the combat system.

However to clarify a couple of things. In FF15 you held down the attack button and Noctis attacked. In the FF7R you play it like an action game at it's core. Each press of the button will cause the character to attack. And there are two modes each character has that can be swapped with Triangle. This mode changes the way your basic attack works. Additionally there are block and dodge buttons. So the base of the combat is very very active if you want it to be.

Yet at the same time you can choose the mode that handles all of that automatically, and you only need to handle what the characters do to spend their ATB bars.

Also a quick twp of R1 or L1 swaps the character you are controlling in combat. So If you get bored of being Cloud, you can instantly swap to the correct choice of Tifa and ignore everyone else. In theory, because you can swap between the characters, you have a alot of diversity in how you play the game because swapping characters gives you a new play style in combat.

Not to mention the system yields itself to challenge runs

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I'm pretty unsure about FF7 remake's combat because it looks fairly similar to that in FF15, which I found shallow and unsatisfying, not because it's new or different. Innovation and redesign is often awesome: RE2 Remake is incredibly good.

Re-read post #60 where i explained the combat system.

However to clarify a couple of things. In FF15 you held down the attack button and Noctis attacked. In the FF7R you play it like an action game at it's core. Each press of the button will cause the character to attack. And there are two modes each character has that can be swapped with Triangle. This mode changes the way your basic attack works. Additionally there are block and dodge buttons. So the base of the combat is very very active if you want it to be.

Yet at the same time you can choose the mode that handles all of that automatically, and you only need to handle what the characters do to spend their ATB bars.

Also a quick twp of R1 or L1 swaps the character you are controlling in combat. So If you get bored of being Cloud, you can instantly swap to the correct choice of Tifa and ignore everyone else. In theory, because you can swap between the characters, you have a alot of diversity in how you play the game because swapping characters gives you a new play style in combat.

Not to mention the system yields itself to challenge runs

That doesn't mean that it won't be shallow and unsatisfying though, pressing a button for every attack doesn't make any combat system inherently good. The fact that the AI can handle at least the basic attacks (as the AI is playing the other characters + your character if you chose) sounds to me like your inputs aren't going to matter much.

 

[CaitSeith]

I'm pretty unsure about FF7 remake's combat because it looks fairly similar to that in FF15, which I found shallow and unsatisfying, not because it's new or different. Innovation and redesign is often awesome: RE2 Remake is incredibly good.

Re-read post #60 where i explained the combat system.

However to clarify a couple of things. In FF15 you held down the attack button and Noctis attacked. In the FF7R you play it like an action game at it's core. Each press of the button will cause the character to attack. And there are two modes each character has that can be swapped with Triangle. This mode changes the way your basic attack works. Additionally there are block and dodge buttons. So the base of the combat is very very active if you want it to be.

Yet at the same time you can choose the mode that handles all of that automatically, and you only need to handle what the characters do to spend their ATB bars.

Also a quick twp of R1 or L1 swaps the character you are controlling in combat. So If you get bored of being Cloud, you can instantly swap to the correct choice of Tifa and ignore everyone else. In theory, because you can swap between the characters, you have a alot of diversity in how you play the game because swapping characters gives you a new play style in combat.

Not to mention the system yields itself to challenge runs

That doesn't mean that it won't be shallow and unsatisfying though, pressing a button for every attack doesn't make any combat system inherently good. The fact that the AI can handle at least the basic attacks (as the AI is playing the other characters + your character if you chose) sounds to me like your inputs aren't going to matter much.

Being how you look down on all combat gameplay outside of fighting games, terms like "unsatisfying" and "shallow" don't mean much when they come from you.

 

[CritialGaming]

That doesn't mean that it won't be shallow and unsatisfying though, pressing a button for every attack doesn't make any combat system inherently good. The fact that the AI can handle at least the basic attacks (as the AI is playing the other characters + your character if you chose) sounds to me like your inputs aren't going to matter much.

Or it just means that people with disabilities will be able to play the game.

Your inputs will matter, because the AI controlled mode only let's you play on "easy difficulty". On hard you will need to be expertly dodging, and blocking attacks as well as using the ATB gauge effectively in order to get through the game. Additionally on "hard" items are disabled so you will not be allowed to potion spam like in 15. Also keep in mind that the AI cannot defeat the enemies if you left them alone entirely. ATB abilities are required to defeat most enemies that aren't the bottom of the barrel fodder enemies.

All reports coming out of PAX EAST right now of people playing the game, say the combat feels great.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Being how you look down on all combat gameplay outside of fighting games, terms like "unsatisfying" and "shallow" don't mean much when they come from you.

Huh? I haven't owned a fighting game since SNES.

Or it just means that people with disabilities will be able to play the game.

Your inputs will matter, because the AI controlled mode only let's you play on "easy difficulty". On hard you will need to be expertly dodging, and blocking attacks as well as using the ATB gauge effectively in order to get through the game. Additionally on "hard" items are disabled so you will not be allowed to potion spam like in 15. Also keep in mind that the AI cannot defeat the enemies if you left them alone entirely. ATB abilities are required to defeat most enemies that aren't the bottom of the barrel fodder enemies.

All reports coming out of PAX EAST right now of people playing the game, say the combat feels great.

The AI is controlling the party members you're not controlling regardless of what difficulty you play on, unless I'm misunderstanding something. So either the AI can fight rather competently or they are sorta akin to your squadmates in a standard shooter that don't do shit and you're basically a one-man army that has to do everything. Is the combat great because the combat is great or is the combat great "for an RPG"? I don't give RPGs passes for below-par combat like most do; if a game is making me fight enemies for 10s of hours, the combat better be fucking legit good. Also, I'm sure people giving the game a whirl at PAX are still in the "Honeymoon" period.

I'm saying this because I've yet to see Square (or really any JRPG or game) ever succeed in meshing action and turn-based systems together because both systems are inherently at odds with one another. Turn-based is supposed to be slow and strategic and making it fast and "exciting" eliminates its strengths. And, adding turn-based elements to an action combat system makes the action not nearly as satisfying. Maybe FF7 Remake succeeds at the nigh impossible but the history of Square combat systems tells me it's almost certainly not. And, I'm of the opinion that FF12 is FF's (of the main series) best turn-based system, yes TURN-BASED (under-the-hood it's the exact same classic FF battle system), because the game allowed me to only do the important stuff allowing me to automate inputting the same braindead commands over and over again.

 

[CritialGaming]

Being how you look down on all combat gameplay outside of fighting games, terms like "unsatisfying" and "shallow" don't mean much when they come from you.

Huh? I haven't owned a fighting game since SNES.

Or it just means that people with disabilities will be able to play the game.

Your inputs will matter, because the AI controlled mode only let's you play on "easy difficulty". On hard you will need to be expertly dodging, and blocking attacks as well as using the ATB gauge effectively in order to get through the game. Additionally on "hard" items are disabled so you will not be allowed to potion spam like in 15. Also keep in mind that the AI cannot defeat the enemies if you left them alone entirely. ATB abilities are required to defeat most enemies that aren't the bottom of the barrel fodder enemies.

All reports coming out of PAX EAST right now of people playing the game, say the combat feels great.

The AI is controlling the party members you're not controlling regardless of what difficulty you play on, unless I'm misunderstanding something. So either the AI can fight rather competently or they are sorta akin to your squadmates in a standard shooter that don't do shit and you're basically a one-man army that has to do everything. Is the combat great because the combat is great or is the combat great "for an RPG"? I don't give RPGs passes for below-par combat like most do; if a game is making me fight enemies for 10s of hours, the combat better be fucking legit good. Also, I'm sure people giving the game a whirl at PAX are still in the "Honeymoon" period.

I'm saying this because I've yet to see Square (or really any JRPG or game) ever succeed in meshing action and turn-based systems together because both systems are inherently at odds with one another. Turn-based is supposed to be slow and strategic and making it fast and "exciting" eliminates its strengths. And, adding turn-based elements to an action combat system makes the action not nearly as satisfying. Maybe FF7 Remake succeeds at the nigh impossible but the history of Square combat systems tells me it's almost certainly not. And, I'm of the opinion that FF12 is FF's (of the main series) best turn-based system, yes TURN-BASED (under-the-hood it's the exact same classic FF battle system), because the game allowed me to only do the important stuff allowing me to automate inputting the same braindead commands over and over again.

The AI controlled characters will only do things to build ATB gauge. You will still have to control them to have them use their damaging abilities. You can either swap to them manually, or set up a hotkey menu that will use your favorite skills for the given characters. So they aren't all that adept without your control. They do enough to not screw you over, but they don't actively help either, you are still responsible for actually making them do things.

 

[Silvanus]

FF's traditional turn-based combat is shallow and unsatisfying too. Square needs to pick a side, either do good turn-based combat or do good action combat, stop trying to mesh the two, it doesn't work.

I really enjoy the ATB/ turn-based battling, and got a far greater sense of accomplishment winning a battle in FF6-10 than I ever did in 15 (or 13). There was more thought required, & it's a stretch to call it shallow with the sheer number of possible moves, spells, party member combinations, etc-- you could play it twice through and use entirely different skillsets each run. No way is that possible in 15.

Re-read post #60 where i explained the combat system.

However to clarify a couple of things. In FF15 you held down the attack button and Noctis attacked. In the FF7R you play it like an action game at it's core. Each press of the button will cause the character to attack. And there are two modes each character has that can be swapped with Triangle. This mode changes the way your basic attack works. Additionally there are block and dodge buttons. So the base of the combat is very very active if you want it to be.

Yet at the same time you can choose the mode that handles all of that automatically, and you only need to handle what the characters do to spend their ATB bars.

Also a quick twp of R1 or L1 swaps the character you are controlling in combat. So If you get bored of being Cloud, you can instantly swap to the correct choice of Tifa and ignore everyone else. In theory, because you can swap between the characters, you have a alot of diversity in how you play the game because swapping characters gives you a new play style in combat.

Not to mention the system yields itself to challenge runs

See, that just makes it sound pretty generic to me, more similar to a hundred action hack-&-slash games available already. The reason I'm less hyped is precisely because ATB/turn-based games are rarer and rarer.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

FF's traditional turn-based combat is shallow and unsatisfying too. Square needs to pick a side, either do good turn-based combat or do good action combat, stop trying to mesh the two, it doesn't work.

I really enjoy the ATB/ turn-based battling, and got a far greater sense of accomplishment winning a battle in FF6-10 than I ever did in 15 (or 13). There was more thought required, & it's a stretch to call it shallow with the sheer number of possible moves, spells, party member combinations, etc-- you could play it twice through and use entirely different skillsets each run. No way is that possible in 15.

FF12 is the proof for why I don't find standard FF combat engaging at all. Under-the-hood, FF12 is the same system as FF6-10. And, the fact that it only takes a few if-then-else statements (aka Gambits) for the game to play itself, it completely makes me few like I'm just doing like data entry for a computer program vs making important strategic decisions. Of course, there's pretty much no execution skill to the combat like there is with an action combat system so I'm not getting anything from that either.

 

[bluegate]

The FF7 Remake demo is out on PS4.

 

[CritialGaming]

Being how you look down on all combat gameplay outside of fighting games, terms like "unsatisfying" and "shallow" don't mean much when they come from you.

Huh? I haven't owned a fighting game since SNES.

Or it just means that people with disabilities will be able to play the game.

Your inputs will matter, because the AI controlled mode only let's you play on "easy difficulty". On hard you will need to be expertly dodging, and blocking attacks as well as using the ATB gauge effectively in order to get through the game. Additionally on "hard" items are disabled so you will not be allowed to potion spam like in 15. Also keep in mind that the AI cannot defeat the enemies if you left them alone entirely. ATB abilities are required to defeat most enemies that aren't the bottom of the barrel fodder enemies.

All reports coming out of PAX EAST right now of people playing the game, say the combat feels great.

The AI is controlling the party members you're not controlling regardless of what difficulty you play on, unless I'm misunderstanding something. So either the AI can fight rather competently or they are sorta akin to your squadmates in a standard shooter that don't do shit and you're basically a one-man army that has to do everything. Is the combat great because the combat is great or is the combat great "for an RPG"? I don't give RPGs passes for below-par combat like most do; if a game is making me fight enemies for 10s of hours, the combat better be fucking legit good. Also, I'm sure people giving the game a whirl at PAX are still in the "Honeymoon" period.

I'm saying this because I've yet to see Square (or really any JRPG or game) ever succeed in meshing action and turn-based systems together because both systems are inherently at odds with one another. Turn-based is supposed to be slow and strategic and making it fast and "exciting" eliminates its strengths. And, adding turn-based elements to an action combat system makes the action not nearly as satisfying. Maybe FF7 Remake succeeds at the nigh impossible but the history of Square combat systems tells me it's almost certainly not. And, I'm of the opinion that FF12 is FF's (of the main series) best turn-based system, yes TURN-BASED (under-the-hood it's the exact same classic FF battle system), because the game allowed me to only do the important stuff allowing me to automate inputting the same braindead commands over and over again.

FF isn?t exactly ?turn based? like a modern Shadow Run though either. ATB is like a hybrid of action and turn based in itself thanks to meter. You are still picking commands from a menu but have to do so and think on the fly because your opponents aren?t waiting for you to make your move; they could throw any number of things at you so you can only ?automate? so much. Basically it?s the job system from 5 for a baseline.

FF's traditional turn-based combat is shallow and unsatisfying too. Square needs to pick a side, either do good turn-based combat or do good action combat, stop trying to mesh the two, it doesn't work.

I really enjoy the ATB/ turn-based battling, and got a far greater sense of accomplishment winning a battle in FF6-10 than I ever did in 15 (or 13). There was more thought required, & it's a stretch to call it shallow with the sheer number of possible moves, spells, party member combinations, etc-- you could play it twice through and use entirely different skillsets each run. No way is that possible in 15.

Re-read post #60 where i explained the combat system.

However to clarify a couple of things. In FF15 you held down the attack button and Noctis attacked. In the FF7R you play it like an action game at it's core. Each press of the button will cause the character to attack. And there are two modes each character has that can be swapped with Triangle. This mode changes the way your basic attack works. Additionally there are block and dodge buttons. So the base of the combat is very very active if you want it to be.

Yet at the same time you can choose the mode that handles all of that automatically, and you only need to handle what the characters do to spend their ATB bars.

Also a quick twp of R1 or L1 swaps the character you are controlling in combat. So If you get bored of being Cloud, you can instantly swap to the correct choice of Tifa and ignore everyone else. In theory, because you can swap between the characters, you have a alot of diversity in how you play the game because swapping characters gives you a new play style in combat.

Not to mention the system yields itself to challenge runs

See, that just makes it sound pretty generic to me, more similar to a hundred action hack-&-slash games available already. The reason I'm less hyped is precisely because ATB/turn-based games are rarer and rarer.

From what I?ve read we?ll be able to play using the classic ATB system as well as the modern action combat system. Some previews have said the new gameplay benefits more from the latter, but that could be mostly based on personal opinion.