First Person Platforming
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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I for one loved Mirror's Edge, and would absolutely pay for a sequel.
I thought that the perspective stuff was done pretty well in Mirror's Edge, and only stumbled at a couple of points because of some bad level design, but the engine I feel was workable and worked well when it did work.
I thought that the perspective stuff was done pretty well in Mirror's Edge, and only stumbled at a couple of points because of some bad level design, but the engine I feel was workable and worked well when it did work.
Yahtzee's wrong this time. He can talk as much as he likes, but the fact is Quantum Conundrum worked. I didn't have any problems jumping onto the platforms, while I DO have many problems pointing a tiny crosshair with my mouse at a moving target in shooters. Should I therefore say that FPS's don't work? Nah, maybe it's just me. Maybe.
Very true. I loved the platforming in QC and in Mirror's Edge. As others have said, once you think about how you jump in real life, it's surprisingly intuitive.Blood Brain Barrier said:
I don't really count the Metroid Prime trilogy as an FPS because it's more that just shooting an endless wave of Russians in a linear and boring landscape.Alakaizer said:
Played it on my xbox had absolutely no problem with missing stuff using a thumbstick. God I want a sequel to that game already!guitarsniper said:
Yeah, I gave up on mirrors edge after a while. The shooting sections were awful and I wasn't over struck with the platforming felt clumsy when you got to the precision jumping sections.
I'm really looking forward to Dishonored at the end of the year, but the fact that it's in first person does worry me a little, especially after watching the dev in the gameplay video clumsily try to jump up onto an open window at one part (can't remember if it's the stealth or action gameplay vid).
Hopefully there won't be too much precision jumping in that, either way I'll be getting that game.
I'm really looking forward to Dishonored at the end of the year, but the fact that it's in first person does worry me a little, especially after watching the dev in the gameplay video clumsily try to jump up onto an open window at one part (can't remember if it's the stealth or action gameplay vid).
Hopefully there won't be too much precision jumping in that, either way I'll be getting that game.
I never got Yahtzee's criticism of Mirror's edge.
The first person platforming worked excellently for me, and I've never met anyone who has had the kind of problems he describes with it.
In my mind, it works as a great example for the fact that first person platforming can work.
It might probably have been improved if they made it so that the character - when running up to jump off a ledge - spaces her steps in such a way as to always take the last step at the very edge, as a human would do naturally. Preferrably with some sort of indication that the last step has been reached, as you would know that intiutively in real life.
Figuring out that your feet leave a ledge slightly after it leaves your field of vision isn't exactly rocket science though, and I found jumping in Mirror's edge intuitive as can be.
The only issue were that the controls could occasionally feel clunky and heavy when trying to navigate precisely while running, or being precise with your footsteps, in regard to hitting staircases with a running start without accidentally sliding sort of sideways on the way there and hitting the railing.
In contrast, 3D third person platformers have always felt horrible to me. I've always been jumping around hitting walls and shit, because the character changes directions and speed according to the movement of my joystick which is not a millimetre precision tool. In such platformers I've also always felt as I've been sliding around on a soapy surface whenever landing on a platform.
It's like guiding this little r/c car and trying to hit a narrow ramp at high speeds, but controlling the little fucker accurately from an outside perspective is just so difficult when the steering is that sensitive, so you end up missing the ramp over and over.
The first person platforming worked excellently for me, and I've never met anyone who has had the kind of problems he describes with it.
In my mind, it works as a great example for the fact that first person platforming can work.
It might probably have been improved if they made it so that the character - when running up to jump off a ledge - spaces her steps in such a way as to always take the last step at the very edge, as a human would do naturally. Preferrably with some sort of indication that the last step has been reached, as you would know that intiutively in real life.
Figuring out that your feet leave a ledge slightly after it leaves your field of vision isn't exactly rocket science though, and I found jumping in Mirror's edge intuitive as can be.
The only issue were that the controls could occasionally feel clunky and heavy when trying to navigate precisely while running, or being precise with your footsteps, in regard to hitting staircases with a running start without accidentally sliding sort of sideways on the way there and hitting the railing.
In contrast, 3D third person platformers have always felt horrible to me. I've always been jumping around hitting walls and shit, because the character changes directions and speed according to the movement of my joystick which is not a millimetre precision tool. In such platformers I've also always felt as I've been sliding around on a soapy surface whenever landing on a platform.
It's like guiding this little r/c car and trying to hit a narrow ramp at high speeds, but controlling the little fucker accurately from an outside perspective is just so difficult when the steering is that sensitive, so you end up missing the ramp over and over.
I think the issue might be that certain gamers who have been raised on third person platformers have trouble adjusting from thinking of themselves as controlling a little jumping bastard from outside to thinking of themselves as actually being the one doing the jump, being there in the situation and playing it from the inside.peruvianskys said:
They're used to getting all the information they need from the visuals. "My characters feet are exactly three inches from the ledge", but playing something like Mirror's edge requires you to use your intuition and "feel" when your feet are at the edge of the jump.
Some people, like Yahtzee, just can't do it, I reckon.
There is nothing wrong with first person platforming. Just because someone is not competent enough to play a first person platforming game doesn't make it a bad idea. It's all about how good you are. And thankfully there are still games out there that provide a challenge besides the usual "shoot them dudes". There are people who are abysmal at RTS games or fighting games. But saying that they don't work because you suck at them is pretty stupid if you ask me.
Platforming in third person view is a lot harder for me actually. I often miscalculate the distance between the object and the character. When I look at the character from a third person perspective, my perception of the actual distance between the character and the object (a ledge for example) is not accurate. In first person view it is accurate.
Platforming in third person view is a lot harder for me actually. I often miscalculate the distance between the object and the character. When I look at the character from a third person perspective, my perception of the actual distance between the character and the object (a ledge for example) is not accurate. In first person view it is accurate.
Hopefully I got inside the Yahtzee window.
1nfinite_Cros5 ninjaed my idea [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.381402-First-Person-Platforming#15026405] which is to augment first-person games with jumping elements by extrapolating from ideas we've already seen.
I had the same problem with Mirror's Edge that Yahtzee did, that some jumps were just too easy to screw up, resulting in a many-story plummet, a slow reload and eventually my consultation of walkthrough videos just to make sure I'm really supposed to be going that way (because I was often unclear). But Mirror's Edge had runner vision [http://mirrorsedge.wikia.com/wiki/Runner_Vision] which would turn potential pathways red. I don't see why they could also color code reachable ledges based on a leap from your current trajectory.
A couple other devices were used in Portal that would be useful in a first-person platformer: The first device you could enable or disable, called the portal funnel, which adjusted your trajectory mid-flight to ensure if you were close to falling through a portal, you would. The other device was less demonstrated (and less obvious in the first game compared to the second) which made sure that if you placed a portal near a key location, it would position and align that portal just so that it would best serve the (developer's intended) solution to the puzzle.[footnote]Sometimes at the expense of unforeseen, more innovative solutions to the puzzle.[/footnote]
An elegent feature and nifty power was provided in the (now good ol') game Giants: Citizen Kabuto [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants:_Citizen_Kabuto]. Delphi's turbo ability would cause her to leap (that is, fly in a parabolic arc) to a point designated by her reticle. This as a secondary jump feature, or how someone jumps when they're also pushing forward (indicating he or she wants to jump to somewhere rather than simply jump up.) would provide an elegant solution. Perhaps a visual effect can be used to indicate targeting-for-jump a surface that is not directly visible from the player's perspective.
This is related to the issue of Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EdgeGravity][/I], though interestingly not the Tomb Raider series that borrowed the same engine.
But Sands of Time has a special place in my heart specifically because in it, it was very easy for the player to get the prince to do amazing things. It was during my play-through of Sands that I realized that the less I have to manipulate the controls to do what I want in a game, the more easily I get immersed in the game.
238U
1nfinite_Cros5 ninjaed my idea [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.381402-First-Person-Platforming#15026405] which is to augment first-person games with jumping elements by extrapolating from ideas we've already seen.
I had the same problem with Mirror's Edge that Yahtzee did, that some jumps were just too easy to screw up, resulting in a many-story plummet, a slow reload and eventually my consultation of walkthrough videos just to make sure I'm really supposed to be going that way (because I was often unclear). But Mirror's Edge had runner vision [http://mirrorsedge.wikia.com/wiki/Runner_Vision] which would turn potential pathways red. I don't see why they could also color code reachable ledges based on a leap from your current trajectory.
A couple other devices were used in Portal that would be useful in a first-person platformer: The first device you could enable or disable, called the portal funnel, which adjusted your trajectory mid-flight to ensure if you were close to falling through a portal, you would. The other device was less demonstrated (and less obvious in the first game compared to the second) which made sure that if you placed a portal near a key location, it would position and align that portal just so that it would best serve the (developer's intended) solution to the puzzle.[footnote]Sometimes at the expense of unforeseen, more innovative solutions to the puzzle.[/footnote]
An elegent feature and nifty power was provided in the (now good ol') game Giants: Citizen Kabuto [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants:_Citizen_Kabuto]. Delphi's turbo ability would cause her to leap (that is, fly in a parabolic arc) to a point designated by her reticle. This as a secondary jump feature, or how someone jumps when they're also pushing forward (indicating he or she wants to jump to somewhere rather than simply jump up.) would provide an elegant solution. Perhaps a visual effect can be used to indicate targeting-for-jump a surface that is not directly visible from the player's perspective.
This is related to the issue of Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EdgeGravity][/I], though interestingly not the Tomb Raider series that borrowed the same engine.
But Sands of Time has a special place in my heart specifically because in it, it was very easy for the player to get the prince to do amazing things. It was during my play-through of Sands that I realized that the less I have to manipulate the controls to do what I want in a game, the more easily I get immersed in the game.
238U
While I've never personally had any issues with first person platforming, I acknowledge that the majority does, so it is something that should be worked out.
Maybe I've just got better spatial awareness than most or something.
Maybe I've just got better spatial awareness than most or something.
If anyone wants to really see how first person platforming can become excrutiantingly difficult go try out a game called "In momentum". Not only is it in first person. No. The whole game is based around jumping about on floating often tiny or narrow platforms and never slowing down, therefore gaining some insane amounts of momentum that eventually have you all but flying around in almost empty space. Oh, and you have to shoot at switches to open gates to take the fastest route to the goal. I participated in the beta, and one of the most common complaints was that people completely missed platforms that seemed to be sufficiently close to jump on/off from, that everything felt too weightless, and that it was hard to understand where the character box was. I think they solved one of these problems by casting a shadow under you, so you'd be able to see where you were going to land and steer (yes, you can steer in mid-air) towards the desired spot. Just try it. Then tell me if Mirror's Edge or Quantum Conundrum feel awkward.
From Yahtzee I get the idea that he believes that platforming only works in 2D. Here he is denouncing first person platforming, and on numerous times before he has stated that 3D platforming doesn't work (except in Sands of time trilogy, if you go by his word). I firmly disagree on this and think that many, many games have succeeded in doing 3rd peson platforming quite well. We're still solving the issue of 1st person platforming, but we're getting there.
From Yahtzee I get the idea that he believes that platforming only works in 2D. Here he is denouncing first person platforming, and on numerous times before he has stated that 3D platforming doesn't work (except in Sands of time trilogy, if you go by his word). I firmly disagree on this and think that many, many games have succeeded in doing 3rd peson platforming quite well. We're still solving the issue of 1st person platforming, but we're getting there.
True. My love for mirror's edge is a bit hard to defend at times.
Not much to argue here, even though there are lots of looong posts here. It can work, sorta... but mostly it doesn't.
I remember the platforming bits in the Jedi Knight series.. which worked because since the first you could change to a blocky third person.
Not much to argue here, even though there are lots of looong posts here. It can work, sorta... but mostly it doesn't.
I remember the platforming bits in the Jedi Knight series.. which worked because since the first you could change to a blocky third person.
Funny, I seem to often have the opposite problem. Especially when I play as the Scout in TF2: I often jump off a ledge and then discover that I can't mid-air jump because it turns out I didn't actually jump off the ledge after all; I fell and used my mid-air jump a split second later.Yahtzee Croshaw said:
The one thing that Mirror's Edge had, and other first-person platforming games need, is degrees of success or failure. In mirror's edge, if you miss your vault of a fence, you don't fail. you just do a slightly slower clamber-up, rather than a pretty speed-vault. It had that room for error, and actually pretty good feedback about whether or not you'd made your timing right. it also had a pretty good tutorial level, with the player able to look at another character doing the animations that the player would do, before they did it.