First Person Platforming

[shiajun]

If anyone wants to really see how first person platforming can become excrutiantingly difficult go try out a game called "In momentum". Not only is it in first person. No. The whole game is based around jumping about on floating often tiny or narrow platforms and never slowing down, therefore gaining some insane amounts of momentum that eventually have you all but flying around in almost empty space. Oh, and you have to shoot at switches to open gates to take the fastest route to the goal. I participated in the beta, and one of the most common complaints was that people completely missed platforms that seemed to be sufficiently close to jump on/off from, that everything felt too weightless, and that it was hard to understand where the character box was. I think they solved one of these problems by casting a shadow under you, so you'd be able to see where you were going to land and steer (yes, you can steer in mid-air) towards the desired spot. Just try it. Then tell me if Mirror's Edge or Quantum Conundrum feel awkward.

From Yahtzee I get the idea that he believes that platforming only works in 2D. Here he is denouncing first person platforming, and on numerous times before he has stated that 3D platforming doesn't work (except in Sands of time trilogy, if you go by his word). I firmly disagree on this and think that many, many games have succeeded in doing 3rd peson platforming quite well. We're still solving the issue of 1st person platforming, but we're getting there.

 

[Le_Lisra]

True. My love for mirror's edge is a bit hard to defend at times.

Not much to argue here, even though there are lots of looong posts here. It can work, sorta... but mostly it doesn't.

I remember the platforming bits in the Jedi Knight series.. which worked because since the first you could change to a blocky third person.

 

[Steve the Pocket]

I had to point out to him that the secret was to jump a moment after you think you need to jump, 'cos the ledge you're jumping off disappears from sight about half a second before your feet actually leave it.

Funny, I seem to often have the opposite problem. Especially when I play as the Scout in TF2: I often jump off a ledge and then discover that I can't mid-air jump because it turns out I didn't actually jump off the ledge after all; I fell and used my mid-air jump a split second later.

 

[guitarsniper]

The one thing that Mirror's Edge had, and other first-person platforming games need, is degrees of success or failure. In mirror's edge, if you miss your vault of a fence, you don't fail. you just do a slightly slower clamber-up, rather than a pretty speed-vault. It had that room for error, and actually pretty good feedback about whether or not you'd made your timing right. it also had a pretty good tutorial level, with the player able to look at another character doing the animations that the player would do, before they did it.

 

[CardinalPiggles]

I think they put QC in a first person perspective because it helps to give you the feeling of being overwhelmed, seeing as you are supposed to be a little kid after all. And from what I've seen, there isn't a great deal of precision jumping involved.

I never had a problem with missing stuff when I played Mirror's Edge. Maybe it's a PC thing, I dunno. It does seem like it might be harder to do that kind of precision platforming using a thumbstick to look around.

I think he played QC on PC actually because I remember him moaning about the inability to change graphical settings.

 

[Zhukov]

I've never understood how people had trouble with Mirror's Edge.

Maybe it's harder with a controller, I wouldn't know, but with a mouse and keyboard the first person acrobatics worked fine for me.

 

[zombflux]

Basically what he's saying is "I suck at first-person platforming".

Mirror's Edge is a perfect example of a first-person platformer done right, but Yahtzee doesn't like it because he isn't good at it. I didn't have any problems with knowing where my feet were in that game.

 

[Daemian Lucifer]

You know,there is a game that has the perfect mechanic for first person precision jumping,only it is in third person:Assassins creed series.Imagine the flow of mirrors edge if you could only hold the jump button and have faith do the jump when she leaves the edge.Then jumping would be as natural as it is in real life.But then again,there would be no challenge in that.However,such a system would be perfect for a puzzle game like quantum conundrum.

 

[Something Amyss]

The only time I ever platformed in a first-person perspective was escaping the favela in MW2. The problem, as Yahtzee says, is the timing. With third person you can just wait until your character reaches the edge and THEN decide to jump. With first person you have to preset the moments you press the buttons based solely on your feel of the speed of the character. All your actions are more or less preset. And when your timing is off, you usually don't have an opportunity to reorient yourself. I got through the favela pretty easy on my first play through (I only had to retry it once because I missed the rope ladder at the end). When I went back and replayed the level however, I fell down so many times it seemed like the only reason the militia hadn't caught up and torn me to pieces was because the game felt sorry for me. Maybe it's just easier to remain aware of perspective when you're playing on a PC format.

But of a tangent, but I hate the way Yahtzee uses the word "immersive" here to describe FPS when the problem is that the perspective is the problem here, providing no actual sense of self--which is a problem specifically because it's less immersive.

But PC players complain about this in Mirror's Edge, too. A lot of the reviews have similar scores across PC and consoles, and basically say things to the effect of "the game is awesome despite the perspective." This isn't universal, but there are some filthy console peasants who do fine by ME on their inferior platform, just as a lot of PC players died a lot.

This was sort of my point. I actually managed to BEAT Dick Tracy for the NES, but it doesn't negate criticisms (like AVGN, for example). The game is broken, but not TOTALLY unbeatable, no matter what people say. And I was determined to get my allowance worth out of it.

Now, when people like the one I quoted at first point out that that had no problem with the controls, it's sort of like saying that Dick Tracy wasn't broken because I beat it. Or, more to the point, I've never had the Red Ring/DRE for my XBox/Playstation, so the respective consoles didn't have any problems.

I say this having not played a lot of Mirror's Edge, but it seems the overall effect is there.

And the thing is, people will defend First Person ANYTHING to the death these days, because it's what they're familiar with, not what necessarily makes a good game.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

Funny that he should mention Max Payne, considering that awful sequence in the first game where you have to dive onto a train.

 

[Alakaizer]

I've found that the Metroid Prime series are pretty good first-person platformers. I think of them as platformers, because more of the point of the game is maneuvering through the world, whereas the enemies are just stuff to clear out of each room before you do so. I think that's the reason I have no problem playing the Prime trilogy, even though I suck at FPSs.

I don't really count the Metroid Prime trilogy as an FPS because it's more that just shooting an endless wave of Russians in a linear and boring landscape.

That's why I called it a first-person platformer. I suck at FPSs, but seem to do okay with FP platformers.

 

[VladG]

I've had absolutely no problem with the jumping puzzles in Quantum Conundrum or being aware of my position relative to the world.

Same goes for Mirror's Edge.

It might have to do with having a mouse to control the camera, finer, faster movements allow me to make a very accurate estimate about my position relative to everything else.

The only difficulty I find is getting used to the specific movement physics in every game (because it sure is different controlling Half-Life's 6 legged caffeine addicted triathlete from Thief 3's clunky body awareness mechanics). But that pretty much applies for any other game as well, regardless of perspective.

 

[Squilookle]

First Person Platforming needs different controls - namely a "jump when I run out of floor" button and a "jump to the place I'm looking at" button.

I'm actually in favor of this, but why don't we revise it a bit?

Since first person games are about lining up your sights and being as accurate as you can with them, why not do the same thing with platforming. If you look at a ledge you want to jump to in real life, you'll immediately be able to tell if you could make it or not, given your spatial awareness. Games to not offer this spatial feedback in the first-person perspective.

So how do we get it to work? Have the indicator at the center of your screen tell you if you can or not.

-When it lights up green and you press the jump button, your character will automatically make it to the jump.
-If it's yellow, you'll only be able to make it for a running jump, so a little more work is required, but it will function as good as green if you do it right
-If it's red, you can't make the jump at all and your character will miss if you attempt to do so.

This will make the flow of the game a lot better, because you're not busy meandering around trying to contemplate if you'll make it or not. Your character should already KNOW if the jump is do-able. Since this is an interactive medium and communication between the player and his character is vital, this is the only direction I think first-person platforming would work.

EDIT:
Also, if there are any would-be game designers reading this post, feel free to take this idea and experiment with it as soon as possible. I want YOU to be able to make a game where this will work.

How about this- instead of the crosshair turning yellow (which is basically the game just hedging its bets) You keep it green and red, but change how it works based on the speed you're travelling. Just like real life, you can land a jump further when you're already moving, and you do it by having the game keep track of a 'jump radius' or something.

So when you're standing still, the maximum distance you can safely land a jump is, let's say, a meter and a half ('bout 4.5 feet). That's your standard jump radius. But when you start moving, the jump radius expands the faster you go, so when you're running at full tilt you may be able to make a jump of two metres or more.

The radius itself is invisible to the player- it's the crosshair that serves as the indicator. At any moment, pointing the crosshair on the ground inside the jump radius shows it as a friendly colour like green. On the ground beyond the radius it gets a hostile colour like red. When you're in midair or unable to jump, it's grey or something. There's still some 'will I won't I make it' tension when running towards a ledge, but just a few practice jumps on flat ground should allow the player to get the hang of it. Not to mention that seeing exactly when a crosshair turns to grey when reaching ledges will give the player a much better idea of exactly when to jump.

 

[MrFalconfly]

I'm guessing the skill required to be good at First Person Platformers is the same skill required to be good at precision racing games (being able to "know" where your extremities are without seeing them so you know how far to pull out to avoid somebody or when to jump off a ledge. Some people can do it, some can't).

 

[rembrandtqeinstein]

Years ago Jumping Flash solved the first person jumping problem.

1. make all of the jumps short enough that a precise initial jump doesn't matter
2. make the camera look at YOUR FEET as you start to descend.

see here, first person jumping works just fine

 

[CrystalShadow]

First-person jumping puzzles don't work at all like real life, because of several factors.

Yahtzee did point out one critical thing; A human being has an innate sense of where most of their body is at any given moment. (I say most, because the amount of times I stub my toe on something suggests I'm not entirely clear on precisely where my toe is in relation to the environment around it. But overall, I know where my body is.)

The other thing, and it's a big one, is depth perception. Depth perception is associated with carnivores, but it is also associated with monkeys.

And why do they need it? Even those that mostly eat fruit? Because they have to be able to reliably judge the distance from one branch to another, or risk falling to their death.

Sound familiar?

So how about a first-person game?

Well, the sense of your own body is mostly based on sensations which are non-visual and which do not produce sound.

Since sound and vision are the only thing 99.9% of all games really deal with, that means you lose all sense of your own body ingame.

This is especially true in first-person, where you can no longer see your virtual body, (and in many cases don't technically even have one, just disembodied arms.)

So, there goes your sense of self.

What about depth perception? Depth perception is the main thing that allows you to accurately judge distances. Without it, your sense of distance becomes very inaccurate.

We're starting to get mainstream 3d gaming now, but it's still pretty hit & miss as a concept.
It stands to reason that the addition of reliable depth perception could really help with first-person platforming, but I don't think this has been put to the test so far. (The 3ds is the most obvious candidate for testing how much difference this makes, but someone would have to make a suitable game for it first.)

But anyway, 3d aside, you have no depth perception in a first-person game. That means not only do you not really know where, exactly your own body is, but you also cannot accurately judge distances.
So you don't really know where you are, and you don't really know how far it is to what you're trying to jump onto.
That really doesn't make for a good mix.

Incedentally, the depth perception issue likely explains the way most 2d platformers are set up. A side-on perspective with the thing you are trying to jump onto along the widest axis of the screen is the best possible setup for accurately judging distances when you have no depth perception.

3d platformers exploit this too. While some of the easier jumps can be done from other angles, a close look at the way 3rd person cameras are used (either automatically, or player controlled) will most likely show that the most complex jumps are more or less done with a camera perspective that approximates a 2d side-on view.
(Not exactly, of course, but close enough to make judging distances much more reliable.)

 

[pearcinator]

Couldn't agree more!

Precision platforming should be in third-person and so should melee-focused games.

Even in FPS's I tend to avoid using the melee weapon (unless it's the spy's knife in TF2 but even then I miss a lot) because I find it extremely hard to judge the range of the melee weapon. Platforming is a no-brainer...we can't see what we are standing on unless we look down and we can't see where we want to jump to unless we look up (or ahead). YOU CAN'T DO BOTH!