Flash Game Makes Players Beat Up "Tropes vs. Women" Creator

[John Funk]

I'm sorry John but we both know you are being dishonest here when your opinion becomes "you are proving her point". We both know this is a kneejerk reaction response just like a good deal of the other crap we have seen that actually doesn't offer anything to the discussion.

Also it ignores that her argument that if the video game industry really is sexist then it should be based on the games created in the video game industry, not a solo project on newgrounds.

Which is also ironic considering that on the news reel we have a plea for women to be outright violated, maimed and killed in cold blood by xenomorphs(not exactly the biggest alien fan, saw Aliens when I was young and GTFO). So while one side we have women and a petition to be exactly part of the violence of video games but on the other side we can't tolerate the poorest form of insulting that involves a women being "beaten" up in a flash game. This is an outright double standard.

Also finally one main criticism and outrage here forgoes the logical conclusion of Anita's argument. That if the video game industry in all sectors is really sexist. Then the people working in the video game industry are themselves sexist or have people who are sexist that are making critical decisions when it comes to the publishing of articles to the development of video games.

Take any of the games she claims is to be sexist such as Bastion, Gravity Rush, Assassins Creed, Bayonetta and the like then there needs to be accountability to root out these sexist employees. Does this mean Shigeru Miyamoto is sexist for creating Zelda and Princess Peach/Toadstool who were made into the damsel in distress stereotype? Or how about Sega or Platinum Games cause according to Anita that playing that game makes men want to molest women. Which designer and artists are sexist there? Cause you certainly can't have products that are sexist without sexist people in charge.

Also consider these videos and article when it comes to the whole point of video games and the lack of research Anita actually does in her work.

One more point John, with all due respect this is a crap news story cause all it does is easy outrage and doesn't actually offer the coherent dissent from people who think that Anita is either unqualified to do this project or so incredibly biased. I wanna see some actual journalism here giving the big picture offering actual context. I don't like seeing tabloid crap that does nothing but spark pointless outrage without actual thought or discussion.

http://www.destructoid.com/a-response-to-some-arguments-in-anita-sarkeesian-s-interview-230570.phtml




EDIT: After playing the game and actually reading the text before the actual outrage let me say a couple of things.

1. There is a long into that is actually very clear in the intentions of the actual flash creator about equality in video games and he expresses his opinion that she conned people out of their money and even mentions that lack of integrity in her research to which people have certainly proven that she doesn't do research very well and often misses a lot of the content that she arrives at her opinion.

2. It was actually being clever in the sense that wanting equality in videos means that women are going to get physically hurt. Once again as ugly as it maybe you can't have it both ways. This just takes it while certainly a kneejerk reaction to a logical extreme and women getting hurt isn't something we haven't seen before in video games, movies, and books.

3. All the flash is involves is clicking on the picture as it slowly morphs into other rendered images of people who have been beaten up. Not very gory or over the top, just a slow click click click to get a picture of her "beaten up".

Frankly, I don't find any merit in the "opposition," such as it is. That is, people are welcome to disagree with her, and the Destructoid article you linked is a perfect example of politely doing just that - it is a reasoned discussion, not an attack.

But the DDOS, threats, links with violence, porn drawings, Wiki vandalism, etc - those are not okay. And if anyone think of defending any of that, I think they need to seriously examine themselves because they are perpetuating a terrifyingly misogynist gamer culture. Because while her points originally may have been about the industry - that is, the ones making the games - the entire culture around gaming is terribly messed up in how it treats women.

If you can look at all of this [http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/internet/2012/07/what-online-harassment-looks] and not see that we have a terrible problem with misogyny in online gaming culture, then you are blind.

 

[Sylocat]

Reeeeeeeeeally helping make your case that Sarkeesian is upset over nothing.

 

[level27smartass]

I'm inclined to agree that it was little more than a scam, but I don't really see how you can blame her that there are gullible retards that will throw money at a perceived injustice to feel better about themselves.

It is not a scam when you knowingly and willing gave money to a person who is going make product that you and other people want to see. With that kind of logic your using could call the double fine adventure a scam, for example the pitch for the double fine adventure was if you give us money we will make a game that dose not exist beyond point that it's going to be an adventure game. Think about it a bunch of people throw an obscene amount of money at something they wanted to see happen. So what's wrong with documentary series that people gave a lot money toward because they deiced too.

 

[Matt_LRR]

snip

Given that you keep reposting that same Bayonetta video, and the "Anita Sarkeesian, college graduate" video comments on it as well, I want to ask if you understand why advocating for the creation of voluntary-use safe-spaces for women is neither anti-feminist, nor tantamount to segregation as it was historically practised along racial (or sexual, for that matter) lines?

-m

 

[coil]

Disagreement is fine - and healthy. Debate is designed to enlighten. But (1) be prepared to back up arguments with facts and logic, and (2) be willing to alter your opinion in the face of stronger, contrary evidence.

Personally, I think Sarkeesian is off-target (and did not donate to her project). I think there are much better investigations into the absolutely real problem of sexism in the games industry and gamer culture. But as others have said, there is an immeasurably large gap between disagreement and the vicious, hateful attacks Sarkeesian received on Kickstarter and Youtube.

Here's a much better analysis of sexism in gaming, for those willing to learn something: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/173227/Opinion_Video_games_and_Male_Gaze__are_we_men_or_boys.php

 

[ElPatron]

>people infringing her right to express her viewpoints
>detractors are actually denied to express themselves

Don't mind if I do, but since I megaloathe both parties fighting this war so I hope more fuel is thrown to the fire so I can cook some popcorns.

Oh, come on, the "gaming community" we are "part of" was always like this. Don't tell me we will suddenly start to look bad.

To be fair, making videos about general tropes in pop culture is not exactly equal to an interactive game depicting and encouraging violence against a specific human being.

I have played games that allowed me to shoot Russians, Germans and "A-rabs", does Infinity Ward encourage people to commit hate crimes against those people?

 

[Rakor]

I mean, yes this sort of thing is in poor taste, idiotic, childish, and downright some people being jerks. Why are some people taking this as meaning the gaming community as a whole is like this? Or some people pointing at humanity as a whole. That kind of irks me. That is stereotyping based on extreme examples. Kind of misses the point if you support her stuff. The gaming community as a whole did not put up that travesty of a "game," some jerk did.

That said.......what is she going to spend $160,000 on? Admittedly the requested amount was significantly less......but she's making a handful of web videos. People frequently make rather impressive web videos for not a whole lot. Time being the major expense with some. And she wants to get paid thousands of dollars to make a handful of videos. And people give it to her and more because she's a feminist. This smells of scam, though of course I cannot know one way or the other. Possibly even the campaign against her is a part of the scam to just curry her more favor. Or maybe the world is ideal and she legitimately believes in the project and will channel any extra money to a good cause or will return it. Unfortunately I lack the powers to know these things magically. I certainly would like to hope she is on the straight and narrow, but I'm a paranoid guy.

I still think this money could go to much better things than a few web videos breaking down concepts we already know about. I wonder if she has made any statement as to what specific things this large amount of money will go into.

 

[Slycne]

snip

Expect what should or shouldn't be accepted consequences of becoming a "public persona" has no bearing on your suggested double standard.

Perhaps it's your stated unfamiliarity with the material, but the issue concerning the new Aliens game has more in common with Gimli using hammer instead of an axe in the new LOTR moba. The marines in the Aliens universe are a mixed gender force; it's a lore issue not necessarily a gender equality one.

 

[tautologico]

Take any of the games she claims is to be sexist such as Bastion, Gravity Rush, Assassins Creed, Bayonetta and the like then there needs to be accountability to root out these sexist employees. Does this mean Shigeru Miyamoto is sexist for creating Zelda and Princess Peach/Toadstool who were made into the damsel in distress stereotype? Or how about Sega or Platinum Games cause according to Anita that playing that game makes men want to molest women. Which designer and artists are sexist there? Cause you certainly can't have products that are sexist without sexist people in charge.

It's not about blaming individuals and saying they're bad people for writing sexist (or racist) stuff. It's not about it at all. The prejudices and preconceptions related to sexism (also to racism) are deeply embedded in our culture, so many people (men AND women) may do or say sexist things without realizing it, because it is ingrained in the way we think about the world. It's a very difficult thing to combat, and that's why we need to raise awareness about these issues, because once people realize that something they've always did is sexist (or racist), in most cases they understand they shouldn't do it anymore. Most people will try to do better once they're aware of the issues.

Nowhere in her videos does Anita say people who made the games are evil and should be named and imprisoned or such. The videos only call attention to what is sexist, to raise awareness. You can disagree with her specific assessments of what's sexist, but the general idea is sound. (And is very bad form to try to justify a videogame in which the objective is to beat up someone, but I don't have time to argue about this and other people are already doing it).

 

[Matt_LRR]

snip

Expect what should or shouldn't be accepted consequences of becoming a "public persona" has no bearing on your suggested double standard.

Perhaps it's your stated unfamiliarity with the material, but the issue concerning the new Aliens game has more in common with Gimli using hammer instead of an axe in the new LOTR moba. The marines in the Aliens universe are a mixed gender force; it's a lore issue not necessarily a gender equality one.

I'd argue it's both, actually. Male-only playable characters is nonsensical in the lore, but it is also potentially alienating (heh) the women who might otherwise want to play the game. There's no good reason for female characters not to have been included in the first place, even if you don't consider the lore. The lore just makes it twice as unreasonable.

-m

 

[Don Savik]

I don't like Anita and her terrible 'feminist' reasoning either, but I disagree with stupid shit like this. Its immature and stupid.

But then again, this is NEWGROUNDS.

WHY ARE WE SURPRISED? ARE WE NEW TO THE INTERNET?

I keep seeing so many articles were people keep getting surprised over the same thing over and over and over and OVER again. You think we would get used to stupidity after 10 years. I'm not going to spew hate filled comments towards the people that make stupid things like these flash games like a lot of you here because idiots are a dime a dozen on the internet. If I spent my time hating all of them, I would lose my mind.

 

[mattaui]

She really couldn't have paid for any better publicity than she's gotten over this. I might think she overstates her case in some instances, but anything that encourages discussion, especially vigorous discussion, is worthwhile in my book.

I'll likewise defend anyone who completely disagrees with her, as long as they do so in a manner that doesn't involve mere name-calling or threats. This 'game' seems to be the worst of all worlds.

Angry that someone's raising money to support a viewpoint? Well, you're free to do the same. Get out there and say something that makes people throw money at you. It's a lot harder than it looks.

 

[blalien]

I hope you stop using the word "misogyny" like that. It would be misogyny if they hated all women this way, but they don't.
They just hate her.

They hate her because she's a woman who had the gall to speak for herself and criticize their beloved pastime. You can turn your head sideways and squint and maybe come up with a reason to dislike Anita Sarkeesian, but none of those reasons could possibly justify the numerous threats and endorsements of rape and violence against her. Whatever mild annoyance or disagreement these people might have had with her were amplified a million-fold because she happened to be a woman who is not currently making them a sandwich.

But then again, this is NEWGROUNDS.

WHY ARE WE SURPRISED? ARE WE NEW TO THE INTERNET?

I keep seeing so many articles were people keep getting surprised over the same thing over and over and over and OVER again. You think we would get used to stupidity after 10 years. I'm not going to spew hate filled comments towards the people that make stupid things like these flash games like a lot of you here because idiots are a dime a dozen on the internet. If I spent my time hating all of them, I would lose my mind.

An alternate approach would be for us, as a society, to speak out and do something about the rampant hatred in the video game community and possibly contribute to making the world a better place. Dismissing shit like this as par for the course is just an excuse for laziness. Newgrounds is better than you think if they were willing to blam this game out of existence.

 

[Don Savik]

I don't like Anita and her terrible 'feminist' reasoning either, but I disagree with stupid shit like this. Its immature and stupid.

But then again, this is NEWGROUNDS.

WHY ARE WE SURPRISED? ARE WE NEW TO THE INTERNET?

Funny how it's alway "It is XYZ, are we new to the interwebz" anytime something like this happens which shows some big issues in the gaminc community at large.

Does it excuse sexism and racism if it happens on certain turf?

Low brow retardness is what Newgrounds is known for. I think a flash game were you beat up an internet feminist seems pretty in context with the site. That's why I'm rolling my eyes.

I'm not saying we shouldn't excuse sexism or racism, but the game already has been taken down. This situation is already resolved and there is nothing more we can do. Getting angry doesn't help anyone.

Its not a big issue in the gaming community at large. But then again I'm not going to call everyone who games unknowingly sexist just because shit like this pops up occasionally.

 

[Treblaine]

This entire thread (including my post) feeding the trolls by drawing attention to this irrelevant game.

Trolls should NOT be given the attention they crave.

This beat-up game is made by a nobody, not representative of the industry at all. These trolls BY DEFINITION do whatever it takes to be most offensive and hurtful regardless of whether it reflects their actual prejudices, to focus on the trolls is a straw-man argument, they DO NOT represent the stance of the industry, they are THE MOST EXTREME INDIVIDUALS and hyped out of proportion. The "industry" (by the broadest definition) have repeatedly rejected, marginalised, banned and censored this loud MINORITY!

But nobody cares what the industry actually does, they only focus on how a few sociopaths within cannot shut up.

You want to look at the industry, look at these games:

http://www.vgchartz.com/article/250080/top-10-in-sales-first-person-shooters/

And what these people say:
http://archive.gamespy.com/articles/march02/top30/61/index2.shtm

Don't deliberately look around for the most extreme psychopaths that everyone objects to what they do.

 

[Don Savik]

I hope you stop using the word "misogyny" like that. It would be misogyny if they hated all women this way, but they don't.
They just hate her.

They hate her because she's a woman who had the gall to speak for herself and criticize their beloved pastime. You can turn your head sideways and squint and maybe come up with a reason to dislike Anita Sarkeesian, but none of those reasons could possibly justify the numerous threats and endorsements of rape and violence against her. Whatever mild annoyance or disagreement these people might have had with her were amplified a million-fold because she happened to be a woman who is not currently making them a sandwich.

But then again, this is NEWGROUNDS.

WHY ARE WE SURPRISED? ARE WE NEW TO THE INTERNET?

I keep seeing so many articles were people keep getting surprised over the same thing over and over and over and OVER again. You think we would get used to stupidity after 10 years. I'm not going to spew hate filled comments towards the people that make stupid things like these flash games like a lot of you here because idiots are a dime a dozen on the internet. If I spent my time hating all of them, I would lose my mind.

An alternate approach would be for us, as a society, to speak out and do something about the rampant hatred in the video game community and possibly contribute to making the world a better place. Dismissing shit like this as par for the course is just an excuse for laziness. Newgrounds is better than you think if they were willing to blam this game out of existence.

I'm not saying we should sit back. I'm saying we shouldn't freak out and go "THIS IS WHY I HATE HUMANITY". We should focus on things like this to stop them, but we shouldn't lose control over our emotions and generalize everyone. This is one person posting one game, and everyone thinks this is what all gamers are like.

 

[The Great JT]

This is just wrong. This is...a holocaust of wrong. Sarkeeslan's doing us a service and these mysognist shitbags make this crap because instead of respectfully disagree with her or turn things into a reasonable, fair and even-tempered debate, they pull crap like this? THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS. Mysognist game programmers, go kill yourselves and stop peeing in the gene pool.

Is there any more room on the blimp to Ponyville, because I gotta get the hell outta this place.

 

[Treblaine]

I will say this is not a scam yet. Who knows, she may make the best and most insightful documentary ever with this $160'000 into this.

But if she does not. If she endlessly delays, puts out something short no effort badly researched piece and it emerges that she has blown most of the money on flippant luxuries... THEN it will be a scam.

$160'000 is based on a promise that it is for a video series about sexism in video GAMES, not stating the obvious that "hurr, trolls exist". If she doesn't actually spend it on the video series about the subject in question, then it is a scam. BUT ONLY THEN!

Right now it is a HUGE promise that she still has some time to deliver on... or return the money.

I wonder if she is woman enough to follow through with her commitment.

 

[lancar]

Once again the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory proves itself correct.
Can't say I'm surprised by this, either.

I don't suppose somebody can dig up all the personal information about who made that "game" and post it publicly online somewhere?
Also for all the ones who made those images.


/Edit:
Also, lets not forget, that if somebody has NOT invested any money in this kickstarter, they have lost absolutely zero, none, nada and zilch money. This means that no matter what she does with the moneys she's got, it's not going to affect you in the slightest.

unless, of course, you're offended... [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHMoDt3nSHs]

 

[him over there]

Of course, the great irony here is that the vicious response is not only giving Sarkeesian's cause way more publicity than it would have otherwise gotten, but does more to illustrate the problem of misogyny in nerd/gamer culture way more than a video series ever could.

Because seriously, making a videogame about beating a woman in the face for daring to express the point of view that a male-dominated industry doesn't always treat women and female characters like it should, is kind of just making her point for her.

Said it better than I could.

Seriously, why the hell are people so pissed about her making a video series showing that women aren't portrayed in the best light in games?

Let me put it like this, people already like games. Gamers don't really have a problem with anything like gender portrayal in their games. So when people come out and say there might be something wrong people feel they're being told they're wrong and that they are bad. Essentially it isn't so much hate as much as it is insecurity because to change would be to admit we're wrong. It is a hatred of disrupting the status quote and the misplaced pride that stops us from admitting any and all faults.