Flash Game Makes Players Beat Up "Tropes vs. Women" Creator

[Bocaj2000]

She asked for $6000 in order to produce a movie. Does anyone know how much a movie costs to make? Any idea at all? Indie movies usually cost between $500 and $500,000. She was asking for $6000 but made $160,000. This is still chump change as far as movie making goes. It is not a scam.

She only asked for $6000 in order to buy about 100 video games in order to be well researched for her upcoming video. You don't want her to be ignorant about her topic, do you?

I honestly can't tell if your being glib or not. But let's assume your not.


She's making a youtube video, and I could send you to people who do that for free, with high production values...

And so can I. Youtube has many talented people who know how to use AfterEffects, a $1000 program.

This woman, however, asked for $6000 which is enough to buy 100 new games.

She is doing research in a way that doesn't resort to piracy.

Yes, she got $160,000, but she didn't ask for that much. I will state again for extra clarity- she only asked for $6000.

Also, we haven't even seen her new video yet. So none of us have any idea what she has done with the extra money yet. If you ask me, it's too early to pass judgement.

 

[LHZA]

You still have a problem with not seeing the forest for the trees, but at least you are arguing in the right direction. I meant to use Lara Croft as a hypothetical as the character is well known. Personally I have never done any of the activities that the character has, so I have no idea if her attire is practical. And that is the main point I am making. Does the outfit suit the character and activity/location. But even then that doesn't matter as much if she is a real personality and her decisions and actions make sense. (and yes I agree the movie was terrible. I didn't bother watching the second movie).

I think Ms Sarkeesian is over the top in her views, but there is a reason. Usually when someone is over the top in reaction it's because they have been mistreated. While she pushes to far in on direction it is because she realizes how most women are treated. Maybe instead of attacking her you can point out the flaws in her arguments. Human reaction is to push back when someone pushes us. Attacking her directly isn't going to help her see how to change her arguments, which is why all the idiots attacking her accomplish nothing (although most of them don't want this discussion, they want her to shut up and get into the kitchen).

Unfortunetly most young girls are brought up wrong just as young boys are. They don't feel they are worth enough, and unfortunetly so many things tell them this. One of the issues with dress is that the media makes it seem that girls need to dress slutty to impress boys and that is the only reason, which means their self worth is joined to how well they can impress boys. I'll totally conceed that boys grow up thinking how to impress girls. Hormones control a lot of what we do when we are young. The only problem is that most boys can still keep their own self worth, it is harder for girls to do. But this continues to improve which is why we have to continue to have these discussions. This is all discussed in Miss Representation.

""Maybe we should go through a large number of games and keep tally of women with depth and women who are window dressing. Or you know, get someone else to do it for us."

And what good would that achieve? Art by a quota? That's open to misuse and calamity.
"

Art by quota was not my point. THe question is are female characters in video games given depth and real personalites or are they complete window dressing there onyl to serve young males fantasies. I don't think you will find too many that will be hard to classify as one or the other. The point of this is to show how women are depicted in the genre overall, which is a greater reflection of how women are looked at in society.

Thanks for the professional response. It is nice to discuss issues with someone who doesn't resort to namecalling, making stuff up, or pulling in points that have no relevance to the argument.

Edit. I still have issues making the quotes work so sorry for the poor post.

You say I am not seeing forest for the trees? You can't see Lara's character for her breasts!

"Maybe instead of attacking her you can point out the flaws in her arguments."

Comments like this annoy me as I have been especially careful to ONLY address her arguments and reasoning and NOT attack her personally. I have refered to her by her last name, not patronise her calling her by her first name "Anita". I criticise her concerns, not who she is. I never shot the messenger.

Addressing her specific argument is not "attacking her directly".

Lara Croft and almost every female protagonist ever is absolutely NOT AT ALL about trying to seduce boys or get a husband. Have you played ANY game with a female protagonist? They almost never hook up with a guy.

I DO NOT GET where any girl or woman gets the idea her self worth is dependent on their ability to seduce guys. More the precise opposite, how men are pressured and shamed if they have NOT seduced a woman. It is pretty fine for a girl to remain a virgin into her 20's or to say she waits until marriage, but a great shame for a man to be any significant age over the age of consent and still be a virgin, or be unsuccessful with seducing women.

Male and female characters are peripheral and for superficial purpose, it's just sexist to call all the female versions of this "window dressing".

There are games where women are JUST for looks, but so rare like the strippers in Duke Nukem Forever. But that's about it.

Yes, female protagonist serve a male fantasy but not the fantasy you are thinking of, not masturbation material, but a ROLE PLAY.

I've been reading some of your posts and there's an argument I'm surprised you haven't used, which is a lack of characterization in female video game characters is at least partially to do with a lack of great characterization period. You can point to the white short brown haired male archtype so prevalent in video games, and characters like Marcus Phenix, which I would say are more characature than character. In my opinion, however, the industry is getting better at this, and it's not like it's a problem unique to video games. That's not to say I don't think there isn't a problem inherent to the way women are protrayed in video games, and from what I can gather, so do you. You're right to say that sexual =/= sexist, and I have enjoyed you're defence of Lara Croft. People always point to her breasts and clothing when claiming she's a sexist character while obscuring the fact she's independent, adventurous, scholarly, athletic, and generally a recommendable female character who unfortunatly stars in a string of rather mediocre games. I just wish overall, there was less of an emphasis on appearence for female characters, which I beleive is more overt than with male characters. You can look like a human tank ala Marcuc Pheonnix, or kinda wirery like Nathan Drake, you can be short and fat like Mario, but with woman, you are inexplicably in heels during battle, ala Ashley Williams in Mass Effect 3. Kaidan got real armour, Ashley got that get up, and though it would have been fine to have her look like that say when she's trying to get Shepard in the sack, or hey, just walking around the Normandy, why did she have to look like that during gun fights? Any ways, there's other points I want to make, and I disagree with you opinion on woman only subway cars in Japan, and I'll be willing to debate all that later, but right now I have delicious food waiting for me, so I'm out.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Pretty loose version of "trolling" here, it seems.

What would you call it?
Because all I see is a lady who got a kickstarter setup and made a mint by stirring the shit pot, and how a bunch of immature trolls responded.

If goes ahead and makes a game/movie with the movie, fine. It's her right.
I honestly don't see what is so special about her or her message that it deserves such attention.

 

[Glorious manwhore]

God fucking damnit.
What the fuck is wrong with people these days? Sexism shouldn't exist!
We live in the goddamn 21st century! We have female bosses, we have female presidents and we all have all kinds of female stuff.
But gamers, oh, I wonder why they are so sexist!
Now, when you start to think about it, then maybe those stereo types of gamers are actually true, well partially.
Since alot of adult gamers weren't that popular as kids so they went to video games for some comfort, while being shunned by the local girls.

So maybe that's why some are sexist? Just a theory.

 

[easternflame]

If you wanna make enemies, try and change something.

 

[Treblaine]

snip

I don't play AS a sexy female too oogle her. If I wanted to oogle at a woman there are FHM and Maxim Magazine photoshoots for that. Or google for oogling. NO ONE plays a game for oogling unless they are extremely sad and desperate, DOA Beach Volleyball is a one-off that did not sell well because at its core it's just a mediocre volleyball sim, completely at odds with oogling.

I think that I my perceptions are skewed by coming from PC multi-player gaming, but if you go to forums dedicated to MMOs (including WoW, FFXI, Aion, etc.) or pay attention to chat in games such as Blacklight Retribution you will repeatedly encounter players who say something along the lines of "I am a male who chooses to play female toons when given the choices. If I am going to staring at my avatar's ass the entire time I play it might as well be a female character model's ass."

Not to say that these individuals are the norm. Nor are they malicious, evil, or intentionally misogynist men. But they do exist, and from the outside looking in they seem very comfortable expressing their personal preference for female characters based their ability to objectify their back-sides.

Characters you want to play exaggerate their gender, they do not hide it or make ambiguous with androgynous looks. Raiden is androgynous but that is the style in Japan for desirable guys, that's what all the guys in pop-groups look and act like. That is pandering to THEIR tastes.

I am jumping into the conversation late, but wasn't the underlying discussion that male-characters serve as an empowerment fantasy for the gaming audience (regardless of the gender of the player) vs. being depicted specifically for the visual stimulation of the players (regardless of the gender of the player)? In that case, if the protagonists in Japanese games are considered "beautiful" rather than "manly" couldn't it be because this is an empowerment fantasy for the Japanese audience (regardless of the gender of the player)? There is a more significant tradition about the sexualized social-power of men as well as females in Japanese society versus in American culture. We tend to attribute the male-power of sexual-beauty to "charisma" whereas women in American society who exert influence through their beauty tend to be judged negatively.

Maybe some of Duke Nukem's "babes" but NONE of the female protagonists. I have made clear how "protagonist" and "object" are totally contradictory with each other, if they are the character riving the story then they are not an object. They are not passive.

Just because a protagonist takes action over the course of the story doesn't mean that they aren't passive subjects to their own narratives. You have to also account for motivations, background, environment, and circumstance.

Here are examples of protagonists I could claim are relatively passive:
1) Forest Gump - cinema & novel
2) Cloud Strife - video game
3) all MMO avatars - video games
4) Black Mamba from Kill Bill - cinema
5) Elizabeth from Pride & Prejudice - literature

I should note that these are all highly arguable. I raise them for the point of the discussion as they are characters that are driven by their stories, rather than driving their stories.

Men only play video games is an unfounded stereotype.

I agree that the impression that video games are solely enjoyed by male audiences is fallacious. However, I think there is enough examples of female gamers on this very board (who have posted in this thread) stating point blank that there are times where their personal enjoyment of the medium is negatively affected by the representation of females in *many*, but not all, video games.

"If I am going to staring at my avatar's ass the entire time I play it might as well be a female character model's ass"

I give the same reason because I don't want to be accused of wanting a sex change because I want to play as a woman, not just to stare at an ass.

"empowerment fantasy for the gaming audience (regardless of the gender of the player) vs. being depicted specifically for the visual stimulation of the players"

Those aren't contradictory, those are the same thing. Power fantasies are done via visual stimulation. You don't realise the power fantasy there is in PLAYING as a sexy woman who is a lethal badass.

"whereas women in American society who exert influence through their beauty tend to be judged negatively. "

But female protagonist in video games do not get power form their beauty, they get their power from being lethal.

Forest Gump was passive in the history of events, but the movie wasn't called "History of America 1950's to 1980's" it was called "Forest Gump", HE was the story, the story was his personal discovery and struggle.

"The Bride" was not passive in Kill Bill... the story was all about her killing to get revenge and SHE DID THAT!

I never liked Pride and Prejudice precisely for how passive the character was.

The females on these forums need to do more to explain the reasons for their feeling ostracised. If it comes from a kind of conservative sex-negative attitude then I don't see why that is a cause for concern. That is just them being intolerant.

 

[Treblaine]

heh...sexism and or "demeaning" depictions of women in video games are not all or nothing. Each depiction/action is judged on a case by case basis...like in the real world.

"why did snake leave Foxhound".....this is contrived... the writer contrived it...if it is well written then it will not seem "out of character". However well written or not this is still the writer making snake do something....back to the clothing issue the designer still puts the character in whatever outfit and their reasons for this action are subject to scrutiny ...how is this unclear?

Contrived... you don't seem to understand how that word is used in literary criticism. It does not mean "everything the writer writes".

 

[Grunt_Man11]

snip

The problem is that the characters aren't people. They are specifically made that way by male devs.

So that point she made is completely null. She hasn't got a clue.

It the fact that the characters aren't people makes Kite Tale's point null, then the entire issue of "sexism is games" is null. After all, they're not people so it shouldn't matter how positively or negatively they are portrayed.

Don't get mad at me. It's your logic that is saying this.

And Samus? In Other M are you freaking serious. That is the most sexist thing I have seen in years. 'I need a man to tell me what to do and validate my existence HURRR DURRR.'

Not everyone agrees that Samus was poorly portrayed in Other M. (I haven't played it, and what I heard about it didn't impress me at all.)

However, I know of one person who doesn't see Other M as the "worst thing to happen to Samus ever!" and it the Escapist's very own Moviebob! (You know the same guy who puts up videos on sexism in games that bludgeon people for ignoring the issue, and not long ago put up a video defending "Tropes versus Women.")

Given the attitude you've shown so far, I must warn you these videos will probably piss you off.

 

[Varis]

snip

I am being honest about why it bothers me. In that female characters in the majority are only there for men to ogle. They are hardly ever 'just' people.

I could easily turn around and say to you why don't you be honest you just want to keep overtly sexualised characters in video games so you can ogle them. Feels kind of insulting doesn't it?

Your description of 'sex object' was about exactly the same as how the majority women are portrayed in video games.

So good job there.

Stop having such a defensive knee jerk reaction when women want to make things better for themselves.

And if you don't believe that guys think that girls couldn't possibly love video games look at most gender related threads on this site.

I'll be honest with you as well.

I don't play AS a sexy female too oogle her. If I wanted to oogle at a woman there are FHM and Maxim Magazine photoshoots for that. Or google for oogling. NO ONE plays a game for oogling unless they are extremely sad and desperate, DOA Beach Volleyball is a one-off that did not sell well because at its core it's just a mediocre volleyball sim, completely at odds with oogling.

No, I like to play as a female because I like to role play as a powerful and distinctly female character, I like the idea of BEING Lara Croft! I like the idea of BEING a beautiful and powerful woman. Now I am not a pre-op transsexual, I do not feel I am a woman trapped in a man's body, I just REALLY admire such women and think they are awesome. I think most men like the idea - the fantasy - of being a sexy woman who is so powerful, capable and literally awesome - awe inspiring.

I don't care if she is "hatchet faced" or scarred, but that she be distinctly female, not a guy with boobs and a wig. But they must be visually female, not hiding their whole bodies under loose fabric or a bulky power suit. Sexuality is distinctly female. This is not about disenfranchising, subjugating or denigrating women. Men wanting to play as women empowers and reinforces their relevance. And sexual without compromise, sexual and in control, sexual without being submissive and just capitulating to be a man's wife to cook and clean for him.

Marcus Fenix has shoulder pads that accentuate his masculinity, Snake with a perpetual stubble, implausibly gruff voice and dat chippendale ass. All the male protagonists are hyper masculine or exaggerated sexual features.

Characters you want to play exaggerate their gender, they do not hide it or make ambiguous with androgynous looks. Raiden is androgynous but that is the style in Japan for desirable guys, that's what all the guys in pop-groups look and act like. That is pandering to THEIR tastes.

"Your description of 'sex object' was about exactly the same as how the majority women are portrayed in video games. "

Maybe some of Duke Nukem's "babes" but NONE of the female protagonists. I have made clear how "protagonist" and "object" are totally contradictory with each other, if they are the character riving the story then they are not an object. They are not passive.

I don't know who you've been talking to on this site, but anyone you heard say it's weird for a woman to enjoy video games is a loud mouthed idiot, a noisy minority who wants to give the impression their opinion is more widely held than it is. The majority don't state the obvious that of course both males and female can enjoy games. The only large groups of people who make an issue out women playing games are people who do NOT play games and just make ignorant assumptions about the pastime.

Men only play video games is an unfounded stereotype.

Well, there's a statement I can relate to.

I play as a female character in every game where gender is choosable. Why is this? Well, mostly because I like RPing as a female character, being physically weaker than a man (in most cases, although there are some pretty buffed up ladies out there as well) but still being able to swing a head off a dragon with a big two-handed sword. I think it's dull to play as a character of your own gender because that's my day-to-day life. I am a man and that ain't gonna change. Nor should it. But when I'm playing a game where I can experience "living" as someone else, I want it to be as different compared to my own life as possible. There is also the cosmetic side of playing as a female character. I like watching a female character of my own design much more than a male one. Be that in a huge armor or a skimpy metal bikini.

Basically, I simply like women more than men. More so in videogames. I feel that female characters are much "deeper" compared to male characters. I don't mean that male characters can't be deep (e.g Max Payne) but what I mean is that, when I roleplay a character playing a male is somehow much more shallow.

The point being, I don't create characters in games to jerk off to them. I create characters to play the game with them. As mentioned before, there is an internet filled with all the 3d and "live action" porn you could possibly want to jerk off to. Why should you buy a game to do that...

And girls do play games. That's common knowledge, no need to speculate that further.

 

[Treblaine]

snip

I'm almost certain women wear heels for their own enjoyment. I don't know any men who get anything out of whether a woman is in high heels or not but I can understand the appeal, it's like walking around on miniature stilts. Kinda fun. Impractical but fun.

 

[toobie]

snip

I'm almost certain women wear heels for their own enjoyment. I don't know any men who get anything out of whether a woman is in high heels or not but I can understand the appeal, it's like walking around on miniature stilts. Kinda fun. Impractical but fun.

I thought women wear heels to look taller?

 

[Valis88]

Have any of you guys ever stopped to ask a real woman gamer, how she feels about all of this?

Or is it simply ok to assume that you know how women feel, or how they should feel.

Just putting that out there....

 

[clangunn]

snip

I'm almost certain women wear heels for their own enjoyment. I don't know any men who get anything out of whether a woman is in high heels or not but I can understand the appeal, it's like walking around on miniature stilts. Kinda fun. Impractical but fun.

I thought women wear heels to look taller?

Again, this isn't rhetorical... but have you ever taken the time to ask a body of professional women as to why they wear high heels? Many I have spoken to on the topic over the years maintain that if given the option they would prefer flats. Some really do enjoy wearing pumps, but even they say that their comfort and enjoyment stems primarily from habituation.

I would be curious if your friends/acquaintances are of a differing opinion.

 

[Chives on top of me]

heh...sexism and or "demeaning" depictions of women in video games are not all or nothing. Each depiction/action is judged on a case by case basis...like in the real world.

"why did snake leave Foxhound".....this is contrived... the writer contrived it...if it is well written then it will not seem "out of character". However well written or not this is still the writer making snake do something....back to the clothing issue the designer still puts the character in whatever outfit and their reasons for this action are subject to scrutiny ...how is this unclear?

Contrived... you don't seem to understand how that word is used in literary criticism. It does not mean "everything the writer writes".

con·trived/kənˈtrīvd/
Adjective:

Deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.
Giving a sense of artificiality.

I am not offering a "literary criticism". I am opposing your opinion that a character placed in an outfit in a videogame can be equated to a woman in the real world deciding what to wear....

 

[Treblaine]

snip

I'm almost certain women wear heels for their own enjoyment. I don't know any men who get anything out of whether a woman is in high heels or not but I can understand the appeal, it's like walking around on miniature stilts. Kinda fun. Impractical but fun.

I thought women wear heels to look taller?

Yeah, like I said, like wearing miniature stilts. To both look taller and BE taller.

 

[Treblaine]

heh...sexism and or "demeaning" depictions of women in video games are not all or nothing. Each depiction/action is judged on a case by case basis...like in the real world.

"why did snake leave Foxhound".....this is contrived... the writer contrived it...if it is well written then it will not seem "out of character". However well written or not this is still the writer making snake do something....back to the clothing issue the designer still puts the character in whatever outfit and their reasons for this action are subject to scrutiny ...how is this unclear?

Contrived... you don't seem to understand how that word is used in literary criticism. It does not mean "everything the writer writes".

con·trived/kənˈtrīvd/
Adjective:

Deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.
Giving a sense of artificiality.

I am not offering a "literary criticism". I am opposing your opinion that a character placed in an outfit in a videogame can be equated to a woman in the real world deciding what to wear....

But what if the CHARACTER would naturally do that from what is established about the character and the world which itself is not contrived to suit a purpose. Then it would not be contrived.

Yes, every story might have to start with some unavoidable contrivance such as establishing Snake's anti-authoritarian ideals, but what naturally comes from that would be him leaving Foxhound.

You ARE offering literary criticism, you are criticising works that have been written, they had a script and written story by objecting to my criticism.

Realise if you say that everything a writer has any character do is contrived because the writer wrote it, then it doesn't matter what they write, they could never be criticised for being excessively contrived.

You CAN equate decisions fictional characters make to real world logic, like a real world woman applying logic to her tastes and prejudices.

 

[LHZA]

snip

I'm almost certain women wear heels for their own enjoyment. I don't know any men who get anything out of whether a woman is in high heels or not but I can understand the appeal, it's like walking around on miniature stilts. Kinda fun. Impractical but fun.

I'm not coming down on heels in an office setting, for a night out, etc. Ask any female soldier if she wears heels in the heat of battle or would want to and I can't imagine any would say yes because of the whole lack of mobility therefore incresed likelihood of death thing. I could easily believe Ashley Williams likes to wear heels in certain circumstances, but why the hell is she wearing them in the middle of a battle? There's no point to it other than to make the character more sexually appealing and in that particular context it's out of place and therefore gratuitous. They're nto as bad as say Miranda Lawson's, but still.

 

[Valis88]

You know if this has proved anything, to me. It's been this.

Men still don't understand women, and I don't know if they ever will.

Also if a women has on opinion, right or wing, she's vilified either way.

Also to top that off, it's better if female gamers let male gamers decide what's best for them.

We still have a ways to go, it seems.

 

[Blade_125]

You still have a problem with not seeing the forest for the trees, but at least you are arguing in the right direction. I meant to use Lara Croft as a hypothetical as the character is well known. Personally I have never done any of the activities that the character has, so I have no idea if her attire is practical. And that is the main point I am making. Does the outfit suit the character and activity/location. But even then that doesn't matter as much if she is a real personality and her decisions and actions make sense. (and yes I agree the movie was terrible. I didn't bother watching the second movie).

I think Ms Sarkeesian is over the top in her views, but there is a reason. Usually when someone is over the top in reaction it's because they have been mistreated. While she pushes to far in on direction it is because she realizes how most women are treated. Maybe instead of attacking her you can point out the flaws in her arguments. Human reaction is to push back when someone pushes us. Attacking her directly isn't going to help her see how to change her arguments, which is why all the idiots attacking her accomplish nothing (although most of them don't want this discussion, they want her to shut up and get into the kitchen).

Unfortunetly most young girls are brought up wrong just as young boys are. They don't feel they are worth enough, and unfortunetly so many things tell them this. One of the issues with dress is that the media makes it seem that girls need to dress slutty to impress boys and that is the only reason, which means their self worth is joined to how well they can impress boys. I'll totally conceed that boys grow up thinking how to impress girls. Hormones control a lot of what we do when we are young. The only problem is that most boys can still keep their own self worth, it is harder for girls to do. But this continues to improve which is why we have to continue to have these discussions. This is all discussed in Miss Representation.

""Maybe we should go through a large number of games and keep tally of women with depth and women who are window dressing. Or you know, get someone else to do it for us."

And what good would that achieve? Art by a quota? That's open to misuse and calamity.
"

Art by quota was not my point. THe question is are female characters in video games given depth and real personalites or are they complete window dressing there onyl to serve young males fantasies. I don't think you will find too many that will be hard to classify as one or the other. The point of this is to show how women are depicted in the genre overall, which is a greater reflection of how women are looked at in society.

Thanks for the professional response. It is nice to discuss issues with someone who doesn't resort to namecalling, making stuff up, or pulling in points that have no relevance to the argument.

Edit. I still have issues making the quotes work so sorry for the poor post.

You say I am not seeing forest for the trees? You can't see Lara's character for her breasts!

"Maybe instead of attacking her you can point out the flaws in her arguments."

Comments like this annoy me as I have been especially careful to ONLY address her arguments and reasoning and NOT attack her personally. I have refered to her by her last name, not patronise her calling her by her first name "Anita". I criticise her concerns, not who she is. I never shot the messenger.

Addressing her specific argument is not "attacking her directly".

Lara Croft and almost every female protagonist ever is absolutely NOT AT ALL about trying to seduce boys or get a husband. Have you played ANY game with a female protagonist? They almost never hook up with a guy.

I DO NOT GET where any girl or woman gets the idea her self worth is dependent on their ability to seduce guys. More the precise opposite, how men are pressured and shamed if they have NOT seduced a woman. It is pretty fine for a girl to remain a virgin into her 20's or to say she waits until marriage, but a great shame for a man to be any significant age over the age of consent and still be a virgin, or be unsuccessful with seducing women.

Male and female characters are peripheral and for superficial purpose, it's just sexist to call all the female versions of this "window dressing".

There are games where women are JUST for looks, but so rare like the strippers in Duke Nukem Forever. But that's about it.

Yes, female protagonist serve a male fantasy but not the fantasy you are thinking of, not masturbation material, but a ROLE PLAY.

Let's be fair here, it's hard to see anything past Lara's breasts. They take up a lot of the viewing range

I have never played and of the Tomb Raider games. Not because I care what lara wears, but because the game itself never interested me. I only used her as an example of a well known female character that has some contraversy for her overdeveloped... character design. I was trying to use her and show that games should be judged on the context of the character, but since you keep delving into specifics with her, lets go with purely theoretical examples.

Honestly though I think we are arguing the same thing. We both want characters to reflect what makes sense for the story, setting, and mood of the game.

To some of your other points. Seducing and seeking approval are two different things. I didn't say women dressed a certain way to get laid (because let's be honest, most girls could show up to a bar in a burlap sack and find a guy pretty quick). I said their dress is tied to their worth. Being desired and complemented. And this is a societal issue caused by both genders. Same with sex. Men are suppose to boast about the number of their partners (which is typically inflated) while women are suppose to avoid sex and have fewer partners. The funny thing is that when talking about heterosexual sex the total number of partners on average have to equal for both men and women. If some guy says we slept with 100 women, then either no other guy is having sex, or there are women with higher numbers of partners then they let on. I always laugh when I see headlines of studys that show men have 50% more partners than women. Someone has to tell these people that their hand doesn't count. Anyway I digress. The point is this is all about societies views and that these views need to change, as that will change the media as well, but this kind of change is very slow.

As for attacking Ms Sarkeesian, some of your posts seemed to me at least to be attacking her character and her mental capabilities. If I have misunderstood then my apologies. I don't have the energy to dig through your posts. If you are confident then that's good. If others point out how your comments come across then maybe you should look at your writing. It is hard to convey tone in words obviously.

Some women can be only window dressing, and I can even conciede some of your points on this, but I can see I didn't explain myself well. I mean that my biggest concern is how female characters who are not the lead but still important to the story have no real personality, and usually only act as a foil for the main character to overcome. Yes the damsel in distress is an old story, but just because something has been done for a long time doesn't make it right.

But that leads back to the view society has. Movies, TV, games, they all make what sells. THe least amount of work for the most amount of profit. Until we stop buying games or going to see movies where the women done make sense then nothing will change.