Interesting video, but it's apples to oranges. There's a reason he could only find Eve as an example of a sandbox MMO. It's because it doesn't work in the same genre. Closest thing you could come to it would be something like Minecraft. I played WoW because I liked the depth. I actually played and paid attention to the quests and the environment around me. I tried playing Eve and was bored out of my mind. There's no journey in Eve. What's weird is that if there was ever a game that defined grinding, that would be it..Phrozenflame500 said:
Former Dev: WoW Has Killed the MMO Genre
- Thread starter Steven Bogos
- Start date
Nobody else has actually *succeeded* at five million subscribers. Instead, they've budgeted for it, gotten far fewer, and either died or went F2P instead. Which is the entire point of my post, as you have failed to notice- WoW's numbers are not the norm by which every MMO should be setting its expectations.Ishigami said:
I'd say he's absolutely right. Seeing this in TSW at the moment. I took about 3 or 4 months playing through the game, completing all quests that could conceivably considered "major", and generally had a good time. Nowadays there are more and more people who join the game, breeze through the gear progression, hit the nightmares after 2 weeks, and complain about not having anything to do but grind the end-game gear on the forums.
"This gaem sucks balls! MOAR RAID! MOAR END GAME CONTENT!"*
And TSW has a pretty great world and a good story, at least compared to other MMOs I've played.
* Translation courtesy of google translate.
"This gaem sucks balls! MOAR RAID! MOAR END GAME CONTENT!"*
And TSW has a pretty great world and a good story, at least compared to other MMOs I've played.
* Translation courtesy of google translate.
I always liked the journey in most mmo games a lot more than the destination.
Despite that I don?t think the mmo genre is dead or in the process of getting killed.
Despite that I don?t think the mmo genre is dead or in the process of getting killed.
This is how my friend wanted me to play, and that's what killed it for me. He kept trying to "power-level" me, and it just ruined the experience. I just wanted to be able to enjoy the game. There's a lot to enjoy. But, yes, there were way too many meaningless quests that didn't do anything for you.
My argument is probably about to become invalid, but this is why I prefer SWTOR. The quest descriptions are delivered in such a way that gets you involved in the conversation instead of having someone just talk at you, and there aren't so many that they start to weigh you down.
My argument is probably about to become invalid, but this is why I prefer SWTOR. The quest descriptions are delivered in such a way that gets you involved in the conversation instead of having someone just talk at you, and there aren't so many that they start to weigh you down.
That's a far bigger change to WoW's fundamental structure than they could really get away with doing. They've implemented PvP zones that could be "held" by one faction or the other, but there's not much point to them if you're just trying to get into heroics.BigTuk said:
I've really enjoyed the firefall beta, I was lucky enough to get an invite for the first wave of the closed beta and spent hours a day just thumping for resources. Even in such an early stage of development with no real quests I enjoyed it so much more that WoW.
I like the new system in firefall of having to build your equipment and being able to modify it, I liked the lack of actual levels too. I agree with WoW feeling like a grinding level race to end-game.
I'm kinda going to be sad when it goes open beta as I've enjoyed the relatively small community being helpful and friendly. Something I never experienced during my time on WoW.
I like the new system in firefall of having to build your equipment and being able to modify it, I liked the lack of actual levels too. I agree with WoW feeling like a grinding level race to end-game.
I'm kinda going to be sad when it goes open beta as I've enjoyed the relatively small community being helpful and friendly. Something I never experienced during my time on WoW.
This sounds like like it could be true but I don't play MMOs so I haven't felt that type of fatigue. MMO end game complaints I have heard of though.
SWToR tried that it is probably the most expensive game ever made. Simply put it is a lot easier and cheaper to make your skinner box upgrades and bonuses that rich lore and storytelling.
On top of that, I dont play MMOs because of story, I play because I get sweet upgrades all the time and I can interact with other people. Adding rich lore to an MMO is kind of like putting Kinect in the Xbone, sure it's there but it doesnt really make it better.
On top of that, I dont play MMOs because of story, I play because I get sweet upgrades all the time and I can interact with other people. Adding rich lore to an MMO is kind of like putting Kinect in the Xbone, sure it's there but it doesnt really make it better.
I got a REALLY good laugh out of these two lines. Not because I disagree with the guy, far from it. It's just I can picture these lines being said in the opening voice-over to some post-apocalyptic movie.
Really I think this guy is spot-on with his description of things. After being with WoW from it's original launch till the end of BC (shortly after Lich King launched, to be exact), he touches on one of the main reasons I finally stopped playing the game, specifically the bit about equipment in the new expansions' starting quests being obscenely overpowered in relative terms to what you had before. Think of the countless hours you spent raiding to get the awesome gear you had. I was a warlock player and I put in a LOT of time to get a full Felheart set at the end of WoW's original game...only to find it laughably inadequate when compared to the quest rewards you got in the opening quests for BC. I didn't get Lich King right away, but seeing the gear my guildmates were getting from the opening quest effectively negated all the work I had done in the previous expansion. Hours upon hours of playing the game all reduced to meaningless "You really should have done something better with your time" waste...so I was done with the game. Why bother leveling up to get to the end game and get all the epic lewt when a couple years down the line it's going to be made into a joke once the new expansion hits?
Getting ready for a new MMO I've been watching.. I really hope they make the levels take time. The last few MMOs I've played really made me feel like I was falling head over heels towards the 'end game.' I don't mind the focus of a game being end game, but if we feel forced/rushed to get there then the arrival has little impact. If leveling dungeons don't have a steady progression of difficulty and gear then raids have a different impact.
I dunno I think MMOs are flawed as in it forces you to work with others and be a generic drone just one of many same type archetypes. MMOs should focus on single player and customization(free/mix and match builds/archetypes). Then build and expand the lore. Have group play work like co op things are scaled up to make things harder for a group. I really dig champions online it might be content lite but to make up your own character and tweak it to your tastes its wonderful.
This guy pretty much nails it. It's one thing FFXI did extremely well back in its heyday. For better or for worse, the journey was long and arduous in that game, but it meant your gear mattered and you took in the world. Once you finally got to end game, it was still all there and the progression from there was anything but straight forward. To this day there are still pieces of gear from the first couple expansions that are still relevant and even Best-In-Slot in some cases.
The mad rush I see in MMOs now just makes it kind of bland and forgettable more often than not.
The mad rush I see in MMOs now just makes it kind of bland and forgettable more often than not.
I don't know why the founders of WoW would blame themselves for what happened to the genre. There wasn't any other game out before World of Warcraft that attempted to cater to the audience like it did, and even the most successful games at the time still showed the game industry was a small time business.
It's kind of like a popular home builder blaming himself for the formation of the housing market bubble ten years later.
It's kind of like a popular home builder blaming himself for the formation of the housing market bubble ten years later.
When I started playing MMO's back in 99 with Asheron's Call, there wasn't a right or a wrong way to play an MMO, you were simply playing a game. You would grind to level up, but hitting that next level was the the sense of accomplishment at the time. Heck even WoW was like that for me for a long time, I'd level by myself, do some dungeons with friends, but there wasn't any "checklist" of gear that you "had to have".
Once Burning Crusade came out, all of my friends and I jumped on the level train and tried to level up as fast as we could, and that was where the wheels started to come off. We still have fun playing together, but the you must to A, before B, and C before D, exposed the treadmill. I quit for a little while and then came back for Frozen Throne, and had fun with that for a while, until we got to the hard core end game.
Looking at it today, or any MMO for that matter now, I only see the game as being about the end game, and not the game leading up to that point. So now I'm forced to grind out levels so that I can then go play the end game content and grind that content and commitment so that I can then do more of the same. Look I like playing my games, I play them as much as time allows, but I have to play on my time, and once I felt like I was forced to play a given way at a given time with a set timing based on youtube how to videos, it started to lose it's fun.
In the end I played WoW off and on for like 5 years, but I can't see myself ever playing another MMO just because they all share the same model that WoW created. For the most part it was fun, but now feeling like it's only a giant skinner box, I can't see myself ever going back to an MMO. Which is a shame because I liked the just playing the game randomly with my friends.
Once Burning Crusade came out, all of my friends and I jumped on the level train and tried to level up as fast as we could, and that was where the wheels started to come off. We still have fun playing together, but the you must to A, before B, and C before D, exposed the treadmill. I quit for a little while and then came back for Frozen Throne, and had fun with that for a while, until we got to the hard core end game.
Looking at it today, or any MMO for that matter now, I only see the game as being about the end game, and not the game leading up to that point. So now I'm forced to grind out levels so that I can then go play the end game content and grind that content and commitment so that I can then do more of the same. Look I like playing my games, I play them as much as time allows, but I have to play on my time, and once I felt like I was forced to play a given way at a given time with a set timing based on youtube how to videos, it started to lose it's fun.
In the end I played WoW off and on for like 5 years, but I can't see myself ever playing another MMO just because they all share the same model that WoW created. For the most part it was fun, but now feeling like it's only a giant skinner box, I can't see myself ever going back to an MMO. Which is a shame because I liked the just playing the game randomly with my friends.