Former president trump indicted.

[Ag3ma]

Tucker has given speeches about his own "awakening" noting just how wrong his younger self was. It's good when people can admit such things.

Wrong on what, precisely, though?

He recanted his support for the Iraq War, and I can give him seeing what a shitshow the occupation was and changing his mind. Although he also apparently expressed his change of opinion with a justification that I would describe as flagrantly racist, and given his output over the last few years I don't think that's anything that's changed. He was over 40 when he was begging favours from Hunter Biden: that's not exactly the stuff of youthful indiscretion.

Mostly, it's just as the email exchanges show, he's on his show bloviating about one thing and then sending texts to his colleagues saying something else entirely. Fair enough in a way, I don't expect any actor to be the same as the character he's playing.

 

[gorfias]

Wrong on what, precisely, though?

He recanted his support for the Iraq War, and I can give him seeing what a shitshow the occupation was and changing his mind. Although he also apparently expressed his change of opinion with a justification that I would describe as flagrantly racist, and given his output over the last few years I don't think that's anything that's changed. He was over 40 when he was begging favours from Hunter Biden: that's not exactly the stuff of youthful indiscretion.

Mostly, it's just as the email exchanges show, he's on his show bloviating about one thing and then sending texts to his colleagues saying something else entirely. Fair enough in a way, I don't expect any actor to be the same as the character he's playing.

On a larger issue, it was about trust in government. And media. I'm older than him but in just the past dozen years or so, we've seen things I can't unsee at this point. I'd find nothing surprising in him having a change on this fundamental matter as I think so many others have as well.
Example: https://news.gallup.com/poll/355526/americans-trust-media-dips-second-lowest-record.aspx

 

[Silvanus]

I'll have to do some research on it, but pretty sure Trump left office with less money than when he arrived, while, for instance, the Clintons blew the doors off with this sort of abuse of power. Even National Review called her corrupt, but corrupt within normal boundaries or such. Obama came to politics virtually unemployable and now has a mult million dollar mansion in Martha's Vineyard.

Sorry, what does any of this have to do with what you were responding to? I mean, most of it is nonsense anyway, but it's not even relevant.

My point was that Trump was actually treated exceptionally mildly by law enforcement. Anyone else guilty of the same crimes would have been in prison for life years ago. His wealth and power insulated him, yet you want to convince us he's being unfairly targeted? Bollocks.

Maybe for another thread but in the US, there appears to be a problem: they're all guilty of this sort of thing to varying extents, which allows for a sort of Mexican stand off. They can control each other.

I think that's why the chattering class was apoplectic when Trump looked into the Biden family activities in Ukraine. They're all doing that sort of thing, so how very dare he make an issue of it!

No, there was criticism of Trump's hyper-focus on the Biden family in Ukraine because it was mostly a fabricated smear.

The truth is that yes, most high-level politicians have dirt and corruption in the past. But there are degrees. Trump perpetrated corruption and crime on a scale completely incomparable to Biden or Clinton. The comparison is absurd.

 

[Ag3ma]

On a larger issue, it was about trust in government. And media. I'm older than him but in just the past dozen years or so, we've seen things I can't unsee at this point. I'd find nothing surprising in him having a change on this fundamental matter as I think so many others have as well.
Example: https://news.gallup.com/poll/355526/americans-trust-media-dips-second-lowest-record.aspx

There's a fair point that we're well past the golden age of journalism. Journalism has probably always been murkier than many journalists like to pretend, but vast competition leading to declining budgets and ever more need for popularity to keep eyeballs trained has hurt.

On the other hand, what dismays me is that the competition to big media is generally almost always worse. And the internet, in the process of giving people unparalleled access to information, instead gave people unparalleled ability to access misinformation in a host of little echo chambers. Once people have that, they dislike and distrust big media for not telling them what they want to hear.

 

[gorfias]

There's a fair point that we're well past the golden age of journalism. Journalism has probably always been murkier than many journalists like to pretend, but vast competition leading to declining budgets and ever more need for popularity to keep eyeballs trained has hurt.

On the other hand, what dismays me is that the competition to big media is generally almost always worse. And the internet, in the process of giving people unparalleled access to information, instead gave people unparalleled ability to access misinformation in a host of little echo chambers. Once people have that, they dislike and distrust big media for not telling them what they want to hear.

I can agree with what I think is your strongest point: the Internet allows us, like never before, to be in our own echo chambers. I recall a chart showing red on one side of a graph, blue on the other, purple in between with purple being people with views that come from both red and blue sides. That purple area is smaller than ever. I'll try to update with a picture of it.

EDIT: an example though I don't know if this is the one I'd seen:

Sorry, what does any of this have to do with what you were responding to? I mean, most of it is nonsense anyway, but it's not even relevant.

My point was that Trump was actually treated exceptionally mildly by law enforcement. Anyone else guilty of the same crimes would have been in prison for life years ago. His wealth and power insulated him, yet you want to convince us he's being unfairly targeted? Bollocks.

If Trump were a career criminal who got into office to abuse the power and get involved with influence peddling, he did a lousy job of it relative to others whom we can assume, really pigged out with both hands to walk out of office with the kind of money they grabbed.

No, there was criticism of Trump's hyper-focus on the Biden family in Ukraine because it was mostly a fabricated smear.

The truth is that yes, most high-level politicians have dirt and corruption in the past. But there are degrees. Trump perpetrated corruption and crime on a scale completely incomparable to Biden or Clinton. The comparison is absurd.

I can't agree, and I think the sources of their current wealth proves it. Trump was a billionaire before office, the broke Clintons are in their old age, centa-millionaires.

And for the Ukraine thing to be a smear, would you not have to believe that Hunter was making huge cash, as he would put it, due to his last name, but that is totally a coincidence that Biden would then take Air Force 2 there, engage in a quid-pro quo to get a prosecutor fired, that there's nothing corrupt going on here, nothing to see? Move along? I don't think so.

 

[Silvanus]

If Trump were a career criminal who got into office to abuse the power and get involved with influence peddling, he did a lousy job of it relative to others whom we can assume, really pigged out with both hands to walk out of office with the kind of money they grabbed.

His primary purpose in office was not gaining money, but gaining fame and attention, and a dedicated, fawning followership. There's a reason he would spend hours upon hours watching news coverage of himself.

On that count he was very successful.

And yeah, he's a conman and fraudster (see Trump University), but he's not particularly good at it. Hence why he had to declare bankruptcy so many times.

I can't agree, and I think the sources of their current wealth proves it. Trump was a billionaire before office, the broke Clintons are in their old age, centa-millionaires.

According to Forbes, the majority of the Clintons' wealth was a result of Bill leveraging political fame to sell books and speeches etc. Which, while distasteful, isn't corrupt.

And Trump's wealth absolutely dwarfs the Clintons'. It's not even close. And this is a man who we know earned money from corrupt dealings: fake universities, refusing to honour legal contracts, etc.

In terms of making money through underhanded methods, Trump is yet again magnitudes worse than Clinton (or almost anyone else).

And for the Ukraine thing to be a smear, would you not have to believe that Hunter was making huge cash, as he would put it, due to his last name, but that is totally a coincidence that Biden would then take Air Force 2 there, engage in a quid-pro quo to get a prosecutor fired, that there's nothing corrupt going on here, nothing to see? Move along? I don't think so.

But there's bugger all evidence a quid pro quo actually took place. There's nothing. He took a trip to a country where his son works. So what? We have not a shred of actual evidence-- correspondence, testimony, documentation. Nothing.

Meanwhile, Trump was attempting to pressure the Ukrainians to target Biden's family, by withholding congressionally-approved funds.

The one with the clearest criminal involvement in this fiasco is, yet again, Trump.

 

[gorfias]

His primary purpose in office was not gaining money, but gaining fame and attention, and a dedicated, fawning followership. There's a reason he would spend hours upon hours watching news coverage of himself.

On that count he was very successful.

And yeah, he's a conman and fraudster (see Trump University), but he's not particularly good at it. Hence why he had to declare bankruptcy so many times.

Business made him a self made millionaire. Trump University was mere puffery, but was unlawful puffery. It was a glorified real estate boot camp some grads found worth while. Might learn more about things that matter there than in many liberal arts schools, at a lower cost in time and money. Still, that ended up being actionable, civilly.

According to Forbes, the majority of the Clintons' wealth was a result of Bill leveraging political fame to sell books and speeches etc. Which, while distasteful, isn't corrupt.

Being paid $700K I think it was, to give a speech is not unlawful. WHY is someone paying you that much money (or donating to the multi billion dollar Clinton Foundation)? When the influence they had to peddle waned, so did this kind of honorarium.

Perfectly legal to pay a novice $500K for paint. Why is someone paying $500K for a novice's painting? Etc.

But there's bugger all evidence a quid pro quo actually took place. There's nothing. He took a trip to a country where his son works. So what? We have not a shred of actual evidence-- correspondence, testimony, documentation. Nothing.

? There is, on video, recorded, admissions against interest.


His major defense was that others wanted the prosecutor fired as well. Really? In corrupt Ukraine there were others interested in getting a prosecutor fired?!?!? Color me flabergasted!

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Prediction:

This is political theatre of the highest order of bull.

Trump gets indicted on 30 charges.

2 months from now Biden issues a presidential pardon.

Biden now looks like the bigger person going into what would likely be a tough election with many people who were pro Biden seemingly regretting their choice recently.

 

[Worgen]

Business made him a self made millionaire. Trump University was mere puffery, but was unlawful puffery. It was a glorified real estate boot camp some grads found worth while. Might learn more about things that matter there than in many liberal arts schools, at a lower cost in time and money. Still, that ended up being actionable, civilly.

He's not self made.

NY Times: Trump got $413M from his dad, much from tax dodges

NEW YORK (AP) — The New York Times reported Tuesday that President Donald Trump received at least $413 million from his father over the decades, much of that through dubious tax dodges, including outright fraud.

apnews.com

 

[Worgen]

Prediction:

This is political theatre of the highest order of bull.

Trump gets indicted on 30 charges.

2 months from now Biden issues a presidential pardon.

Biden now looks like the bigger person going into what would likely be a tough election with many people who were pro Biden seemingly regretting their choice recently.

That actually can't happen. This is a state case, not federal. A president can't pardon in a state case. A president can only pardon federal charges.

 

[Trunkage]

Note that Trump wanted the police to go in hard on protests, cracking skulls and shooting people, but he dialed that back to shooting to maim, rather than kill. Sorta seems like he wanted people to shut up and obey.

Can I just remind everyone:

Bush sent in tanks to quelll protest.

Reagan bombed a building in Philadelphia to quell protest

Trump should not get that power. Compared to what has happened, it's not that bad. But I am very thankful that the armed forces aren't keen on doing that anymore

 

[Worgen]

Can I just remind everyone:

Bush sent in tanks to quelll protest.

Reagan bombed a building in Philadelphia to quell protest

Can I get some links to that? I haven't heard of either of those incidents.

 

[Trunkage]

I can agree with what I think is your strongest point: the Internet allows us, like never before, to be in our own echo chambers. I recall a chart showing red on one side of a graph, blue on the other, purple in between with purple being people with views that come from both red and blue sides. That purple area is smaller than ever. I'll try to update with a picture of it.

EDIT: an example though I don't know if this is the one I'd seen:

View attachment 8405


If Trump were a career criminal who got into office to abuse the power and get involved with influence peddling, he did a lousy job of it relative to others whom we can assume, really pigged out with both hands to walk out of office with the kind of money they grabbed.


I can't agree, and I think the sources of their current wealth proves it. Trump was a billionaire before office, the broke Clintons are in their old age, centa-millionaires.

And for the Ukraine thing to be a smear, would you not have to believe that Hunter was making huge cash, as he would put it, due to his last name, but that is totally a coincidence that Biden would then take Air Force 2 there, engage in a quid-pro quo to get a prosecutor fired, that there's nothing corrupt going on here, nothing to see? Move along? I don't think so.

What used to happen is that everyone who said something the elites didnt like got cancelled. Over centuries. Red Scares, Lavender Scares, McCarthyism, Anarchism is still treason. Homosexuals etc were in the closet for a reason. Even today, Libs of Tiktok has gotten teachers fired if they say their partners name and it remotely sounds like the same sex as the teacher. There is a reason there is a teacher shortage in Southern states at the moment. Teachers are too frightened to speak

Only one side of politics ever got to speak, for the longest time. What is happening in the US right now is that the Left is actually able to talk instead of just being cancelled

 

[Trunkage]

Can I get some links to that? I haven't heard of either of those incidents.

During the Rodney King riots, 13,000 soliders and tank were patolling the streets to keep the peace. I think it started day 3 and went for a couple of weeks

There are plenty of articles on the bombing but I'll start with the Wikipedia and you can find articles on it

1985 MOVE bombing - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Philly PD drop two explosive devices from a helicopter and killed 11 (5 kids). Now, it sounded to me that the bombs were somewhat explosive but also meant to mainly make fires. I don't understand this part and havent heard the explosive named specifically

 

[Worgen]

During the Rodney King riots, 13,000 soliders and tank were patolling the streets to keep the peace. I think it started day 3 and went for a couple of weeks

Well for that the national guard was called in so its understandable there would be a show of force. Since those were big riots.

 

[Silvanus]

Business made him a self made millionaire. Trump University was mere puffery, but was unlawful puffery. It was a glorified real estate boot camp some grads found worth while. Might learn more about things that matter there than in many liberal arts schools, at a lower cost in time and money. Still, that ended up being actionable, civilly.

He wasn't self-made. He inherited vast sums of wealth as well as control of the businesses themselves. He then mismanaged them, bankrupting several of them. And several of his ventures were unlawful scams.

Being paid $700K I think it was, to give a speech is not unlawful. WHY is someone paying you that much money (or donating to the multi billion dollar Clinton Foundation)? When the influence they had to peddle waned, so did this kind of honorarium.

Perfectly legal to pay a novice $500K for paint. Why is someone paying $500K for a novice's painting? Etc.

It's very common for ex-politicians to be paid hundreds of thousands to do speaking engagements. The business world throws its money around on inane shit like that all the time. That's not corruption, and it's not even uncommon.

? There is, on video, recorded, admissions against interest.


His major defense was that others wanted the prosecutor fired as well. Really? In corrupt Ukraine there were others interested in getting a prosecutor fired?!?!? Color me flabergasted!

No, that wasn't his "major defence". He pushed for Viktor Shokin to be fired as part of the anti-corruption push in Ukraine. Shokin led the prosecutor's office but was widely recognised as being compromised.

We know for a fact that Burisma was not under investigation when Biden pushed for Shokin to be fired. Shokin had investigated Burisma in 2014, and that investigation was already over-- not to mention the fact that the investigation was focused on 2010-12, two years before Hunter Biden even joined it.

So: Shokin never investigated Hunter Biden, or Burisma while he worked there. And the investigation into Burisma was already over by the time Joe Biden called for Shokin to be fired.

There's zero evidence of a quid pro quo to protect his son, and the timeline directly contradicts it.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

The Philly PD drop two explosive devices from a helicopter and killed 11 (5 kids). Now, it sounded to me that the bombs were somewhat explosive but also meant to mainly make fires. I don't understand this part and havent heard the explosive named specifically

"two 1.5-pound (0.75 kg) bombs (which the police referred to as "entry devices") made of Tovex, a dynamite substitute, combined with two pounds of FBI-supplied C-4" - the wiki you linked

Not sure why they bothered with the tovex (it's just a fancy ANFO explosive)... possibly didn't have the right blasting caps to detonate the c4.

From linked article, it seems the blasts ruptured the fueltank on a roof mounted generator and that's what started the fire.

 

[Ag3ma]

Business made him a self made millionaire.

Inasmuch as daddy giving him a million dollars (in 1970, nearly $8 million in today's money) and arranging a starter project with the benefit of all his daddy's connections in the industry, plus subsequent gifts and inheritance of another half a billion thereafter, is what you can call "self-made".

Trump's real skill is self-promotion. He got into the NY property market in time for the 80s boom, and we know enough since then that from ~1990 onwards he's made pretty much nothing at all as a businessman. He made billions in losses, much of which he clawed back from the US goverment because corporations and rich people nobbled the government into writing off their losses at the taxpayers' expense, and the rest made up for by his earnings from The Apprentice and dodgy accounting.

This, again, is why Trump wouldn't release his tax returns. His tax returns expose the fact his self-proclaimed business genius is a myth. Under all the razzmatazz, over the last 30 years he's mostly been a con-man defrauding people, fiddling the books and hiding his debts just to break even.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Business made him a self made millionaire.

Trump got handed everything and can barely keep it going. Casinos have gone bankrupt under his ownership, which ought to be all but impossible. He was born on third, and thinks he hit a home run and was cheated.

There are plenty of articles on the bombing but I'll start with the Wikipedia and you can find articles on it

1985 MOVE bombing - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Philly PD drop two explosive devices from a helicopter and killed 11 (5 kids). Now, it sounded to me that the bombs were somewhat explosive but also meant to mainly make fires. I don't understand this part and havent heard the explosive named specifically

According to this article, the purpose of the bomb was to destroy a reinforced emplacement on the roof. Both the police commissioner and fire commissioner chose to let the fire burn as a way to force out the occupants; because of bad communications, the fire burned for an hour before anyone bothered to do anything, and by the time firefighting efforts started it was impossible to stop.

After the fire, five weapons were discovered, against which the police brought five hundred units and fired ten thousand rounds into the building.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

It's very common for ex-politicians to be paid hundreds of thousands to do speaking engagements. The business world throws its money around on inane shit like that all the time. That's not corruption, and it's not even uncommon.

Well let's be clear, that may be legal, but it is absolutely corrupt and is absolutely revolving door/influence peddling policy.

Business made him a self made millionaire. Trump University was mere puffery, but was unlawful puffery. It was a glorified real estate boot camp some grads found worth while. Might learn more about things that matter there than in many liberal arts schools, at a lower cost in time and money. Still, that ended up being actionable, civilly.

Others have already said it, but Trump was famous for decades for being a washup who stiffed his workers because he only ran failing businesses.