Fox News Attacks NEA for Classifying Games as Art

Avatar Roku

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Ace IV said:
Avatar Roku said:
If you bring in a person to debate, the expectation is that he is an expert, or at least somewhat well versed, in what is being discussed.
The dude they brought on was a radio talk show host. He likes to give his opinion. So let him give his opinion. Then the well-versed games blogger can explain why he's wrong.

Sides have already been drawn. If you're the kind of person who would take the radio personality seriously, you're not the kind of person who would ever believe games as art in the first place.
2 things. First, just a pet peeve of mine, could you please quote my entire post next time? I know it doesn't matter, but that bugs me.

Second, it doesn't matter whether he is only a talk radio host, the fact that he has been brought onto this show means, in most viewers' eyes, he is an expert. Whether that is true or not makes no difference, it is a matter of perceptions. That's why vetting your guests properly is so important.

Earlier, you said that the fact that he is so loud and obnoxious is actually a point in our favor. But that is not true. Have you ever heard of the Big Lie? It is a propaganda concept that basically says that the bigger the lie and the louder and more often it is repeated, the more likely people are to believe it. In this specific case, people like you and I can see through the lie, but normal people, with no vested interest in games one way or another, will most likely not. That is dangerous.
 

Buizel91

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Aug 25, 2008
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Dorian6 said:
arc1991 said:
Dorian6 said:
arc1991 said:
Anyone fancy helping me blow up the Fox News building?

*Grabs Shotgun and C4 charges*
dude....what the hell is wrong with you?

How exactly will that help our cause?

How will that show that people who play games are mature, sensible human beings?

Right now FOX sees us as a bunch of violent, anti-social shut-ins, who's first response to every taunt is violence.

You're playing right into their hands. That's how they work. They say misleading, ignorant things to incite an outraged response, and right when someone makes a threat, or takes violent action, they go on the defensive and portray themselves as the victims. It's exactly what they did with Prop 8 in California, spouting lies and misinformation, and when the proposition passed, and otherwise reasonable people were protesting in the streets, FOX sits back and says "Look, we were right, they gays are a bunch of violent, evil, sinners who are angry that the lord won this round."

Great job dude
First off, I'm in England, i can hardly do anything even if i wanted 2...

and secondly, Joking, i would like you to learn then meaning of that word.
No, there's joking, and then there's saying something completely inappropriate that someone will take and use against you. Yours was the latter
No, it wasn't many other people on this thread took it as a joke, and even added onto it, you sir just don't have a decent sense of humour.

Lighten up, it works wonders :)
 

Uberjoe19

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Jan 25, 2009
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This is why I avoid most large news conglomerates. They always have an agenda, and anything not fitting into it they try to push under the rug or belittle.
 

Evil Alpaca

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Ace IV said:
Avatar Roku said:
If you bring in a person to debate, the expectation is that he is an expert, or at least somewhat well versed, in what is being discussed.
The dude they brought on was a radio talk show host. He likes to give his opinion. So let him give his opinion. Then the well-versed games blogger can explain why he's wrong.

Sides have already been drawn. If you're the kind of person who would take the radio personality seriously, you're not the kind of person who would ever believe games as art in the first place.
The problem I have with your argument is that presenting a talk show host opinion alongside a more knowledgeable opinion, they give equal legitimacy to both points of view. The well-versed games blogger has spent time and effort on his position. The talk show host is giving his point of view with much less background information as evidenced by his resorting to sound bite responses.

If Fox's responsibility was to simply gather various opinions on the matter, then they would be fine; but if they were trying inform an audience rather than solidify perceptions then their chance to create a useful debate falls flat.

OT: I think this is one more piece of evidence that the U.S. is headed toward media presentation similar to England. At least the papers there are a little more honest about their biases and don't try to hide it under slogans of "fair and balanced."
 

infohippie

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Two errors in the first sentence of that article - "In a display of manipulative journalism from beginning to end, Fox News attempts to debate whether or not artistic videogames should receive federal funding." Fox may be manipulative, but they have nothing to do with journalism. Fox also do not debate. They rant, troll, and incite, but they don't debate.
 

Kopikatsu

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Ace IV said:
Pretty much the entire segment was invalidated the moment that Fox chose the topic "Should the video game 'Call of Duty' get federal funding?".

As was explained by Ambrozy, Call of Duty wasn't even remotely eligible for the funding. One of the major requirements to get the funding was that the game had to be non-profit, which was information that was readily available.

I really think that it isn't a matter of Fox being ignorant so much as deliberately ignoring anything that doesn't support their agenda. (And I'm forced to watch Fox News and Glenn Beck every single day. IT IS NOT FUN.)
 

Avatar Roku

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Ace IV said:
Avatar Roku said:
Ace IV said:
The dude they brought on was a radio talk show host. He likes to give his opinion. So let him give his opinion. Then the well-versed games blogger can explain why he's wrong.
2 things. First, just a pet peeve of mine, could you please quote my entire post next time? I know it doesn't matter, but that bugs me.
Sure thing, mate. I just like to keep it clean, is all.

Avatar Roku said:
Second, it doesn't matter whether he is only a talk radio host, the fact that he has been brought onto this show means, in most viewers' eyes, he is an expert.
It's made abundantly clear that he is a radio talk show host, his name and title appear under him whenever he was talking. Nothing indicated he was an expert in anything, and any assumption of such is entirely the fault of the viewer.
Ok, why would you agree to show my whole post, and then cut out half of it?

And yes, it is made clear that he is a talk radio host. But the way that this whole thing was structured seemed to be an attempt to push perceptions the way I described. You know what, this guy said it better:
Evil Alpaca said:
Ace IV said:
Avatar Roku said:
If you bring in a person to debate, the expectation is that he is an expert, or at least somewhat well versed, in what is being discussed.
The dude they brought on was a radio talk show host. He likes to give his opinion. So let him give his opinion. Then the well-versed games blogger can explain why he's wrong.

Sides have already been drawn. If you're the kind of person who would take the radio personality seriously, you're not the kind of person who would ever believe games as art in the first place.
The problem I have with your argument is that presenting a talk show host opinion alongside a more knowledgeable opinion, they give equal legitimacy to both points of view. The well-versed games blogger has spent time and effort on his position. The talk show host is giving his point of view with much less background information as evidenced by his resorting to sound bite responses.

If Fox's responsibility was to simply gather various opinions on the matter, then they would be fine; but if they were trying inform an audience rather than solidify perceptions then their chance to create a useful debate falls flat.

OT: I think this is one more piece of evidence that the U.S. is headed toward media presentation similar to England. At least the papers there are a little more honest about their biases and don't try to hide it under slogans of "fair and balanced."
 

Avatar Roku

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Jul 9, 2008
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Ace IV said:
Avatar Roku said:
Ace IV said:
It's made abundantly clear that he is a radio talk show host, his name and title appear under him whenever he was talking. Nothing indicated he was an expert in anything, and any assumption of such is entirely the fault of the viewer.
Ok, why would you agree to show my whole post, and then cut out half of it?
Because I don't put in quotes things that I'm not responding to. It's a waste of space.
Fair enough, I'm just confused why you didn't say that at first, rather than saying you wouldn't do that and then doing it.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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This article is pretty much just as bad as Fox News is being accused of being.

To be honest if your going to "win" against opposition you need to do it by accepting the other side on it's own terms, not being even more bombastic in return. We also need to concede when the other side has legitimate points.

Commenting on "should the goverment be developing "Call Of Duty" " is a fairly valid statement to begin with, with the name largely being used because it's something people are familiar with. While "our boy" Brian Ambrozy, does make a comment about the funding going towards smaller studios, he fails to provide any counter examples of what would qualify and why, and for all comments about educational games and those "for the public good" he also fails to address how the gaming grants can guarantee that is going to happen... which to be honest he can't.

To be honest if I was on the other side I would have raped this guy three ways from sunday and make the beating he took here due to his own failures look petty in comparison. He's lucky that the guy he's debating against was so wrapped up in screaming about wastes of goverment dollars rather than the issue itself.

See, nothing prevents someone from using those federal dollars from making a game a lot like Call Of Duty, because by it's nature artwork can't be constrained by goverment standards in the US. Unlike nations like China where it holds onto the right to be exclusionary. There are cases of artists living off of goverment funds, and then producing works of "performance art" where they say paint an American flag on the bottom of a basin, urinate it, and then drop a cruicifix into the urine... and various other ridiculous things. Artists get blasted for a reason. You can defend the artistic merits of anything, and that includes something like "Call Of Duty" or "Super Mario Brothers", art is easy to project if you want to. Nothing prevents some guy from crating "Call Of Duty" and then calling it art to justify the goverment funding it's received. That funding does not mean that it's the sum total of everything invested in the game either.

By way of blasting this guy I'd have brought out a lot of indie titles like say Penumbra, or other horror works, or just indie games about killing minorities or slaughtering zombies. Then I would have given an artsy sounding pseudo-speil as if I was selling them. The point I could make is that the only real defense of games as artwork is that anything can be defended as artwork, and in this case in paticular it's far less likely to produce anything that would be generally accepted as artwork than other mediums.

Then of course I probabyl would have gotten into the tax ranting, to make the point that this is not the right time to be adding new mediums to be covered to federal artistic grants when we have trouble paying our national bills to begin with, especilly ones that are so dubious in the results they would acheive.

Don't misunderstand this, I'm not saying I'd be right, or I even agree with what "I" say above, just that it would be easy to do.

Truthfully this is pretty much "non news" in my mind as it came down to what seemed to be two, totally unprepared morons. "Our guy" who just seemed to give canned response right from when games were expected, and "their guy" who seemed mostly motivated by blasting anything and everything the goverment wanted to spend money on right now. Honestly I never got the impresison he was paticularly anti-video games or anything, he just didn't want to see the money spent. If we were at a differant time in the country's history with more money to spread around he might have even been fairly accepting.

Really the only noteworthy thing about the whole thing was Fox News' way of framing the debate by using "Call Of Duty" and really I don't think they were doing anything bad, they were just generating hype for the debate which is their job. Overall Fox News seemed to be neutral, and simply providing the platform and the attention grabbing elements, sure they WERE a bit over the top in talking about goverment funding of Call Of Duty, but really I can't fault that because if some guy wanted to use the $10,000 budget to develop a game like that, nothing stops him. What's more for all comments about big budget games, I don't think it's totally out there that we might see it happen and here is why:

The thing about gaming being defined as art is that it opened the door for various kinds of tax breaks. The most expensive thing about developing games nowadays, shooters in paticular, is buying the rights to the tool boxes like "Unreal", "Havoc Physix" and other assorted things. Rignt now we're probably going to see the companies making those tool boxes donating them to artists for good PR and of course sweet tax breaks (mostly the latter). The talent a lot of "AAA" games get can also be obtained by artists for free under a similar principle, movie studios, composers, etc.. will donate resources to artistic film makers, actors will donate their time (which is why you can get some big name people in student films), and all kinds of things, all because it's now again... a valid tax write off. There are like 15 minute art films out there done on a "shoestring budget" but actually have millions of dollars in resources invested in them all due to artistic donations of time and resources.

This is to say nothing of art communes, where there are basically hotels that provide free room and board for artists as long as they create. Granted the waiting lists for those can be pretty substantial, but it does mean that things like food and rent don't apply to various acknowleged artists. This is how some of these guys can live for 20 years without a job and only receiving a few thousand dollars a year for the goverment, and produce stuff, we just don't see it with gaming right now, but the door is open.

The point here being is that as bombastic as it was, Fox is actually right, the acceptance of games as art *IS* opening exactly that door. It's not just about the grant money, but everything else that goes with it. Also the costs, which the guy in the against column didn't explain himself well on, come from people donating resources and time instead of paying actual money, which means that the goverment is effectively giving up the money they would be receiving instead.

So basically we're probably going to see a lot of these "art games" winding up with the same basic tools the big boys play with, and no real requirements to prevent them from making something like "Call Of Duty" other than they find some way to justify it artistically, saying that "killing these terrorist scumbags is all about a man's journey to enlightenment through the appreciation of muzzle flash". There is no requirement such art be good, or even make sense. Heck, some artists get away with basically babbling and then saying "it's just too deep for you". Think of the ENN joke on an indie game conferance.

Also I can almost guarantee that big name game developers are probably going to be able to donate their time the way movie stars donate theirs down the road. Instead of paying taxes someone like say "Gabe Newell" could donate a few hours consulting on indie games and write it off of Valve's taxes. I wouldn't be surprised if they find some way of using the system to cut development costs by having games developed "artistically" with the money invested being covered through tax breaks, as a way of experimenting, so that way they effectively get their R&D for free and can then choose which projects to actually grab for non-artistic professional release.

I'm getting well away from the basic point, but the thing is that while Fox was being bombastic, they sort of do have a point. We're probably going to see indie games developing on a much higher level now, as the actual grant money is only the tiniest tip of the iceberg. Being accepted as art means it's now eligible for tax deductable donations.
 

PrinceofPersia

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LiquidGrape said:
Dear Fox News. I think I speak for all people of rational thinking and common sense when I say:

Second this and add a "don't be a dick" speech in to shame those trolls at Fox.
 

gyroscopeboy

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Nov 27, 2010
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You know what WOULD save some "taxpayers money"? Firing that stupid **** from whatever depth of hell he calls a radio show!

The video game guy summed up everything in point 1 of his argument...who the fuck said theyre going to raise taxes because of this one tiny change in policy?

Man, im glad i don't live in the US, i'd have the shits 24/7
 

kannibus

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Wasteful? Oh, do tell.

This from the country that spent a million dollars on developing a pen that would function in space.