Fox "Will Find Ways" to Use Fantastic Four

[elvor0]

The reason the marvel movies work is they embrace the weirder things that the comics do. It seems like the fantastic 4 movies are trying to redo the 'realism' of the nolan batman movies, a thing which only kind of worked.

I wish Marvel did this in Iron man 3 instead of generic white business suit dude.

Iron Man 1's big bad was a white business dude, Iran Man 2's villains were a white business dude backing up a white dude who was mad at not getting to be a business dude and Iron Man 3's villain was a white business dude. That's primarily what made IM3 suck for me, it was the same rehashed story 3 times.

The real Mandarin is actually still going to be a villain. In the one shot Hail to the King, Trevor Slattery is shown being kidnapped by a member of the real Ten Rings who are pissed that he had the gall to steal The Mandarins identity.

I think they just wanted to use the Extremis story either because they really liked it, or as a way of grounding Tony for his PTSD after the battle of New York. Personally it was all worth it for Ben Kingsleys fantastic performance as Trevor Slattery.

I think thats less of a problem with the MCU and more of a problem with Iron Mans rogue gallery. As far as I'm aware, 90% of Iron Mans rogues gallery consists of Suits and Power Suits. Granted, there are a few space villians, but I'm guessing they're saving those for later to really hammer home the impact of Tonys trip through the portal. Other villians that he clashes with don't belong to Marvel, are a bit pants, or require build up.

Finally, I'm guessing it also has to do with the themes of the big 3, Thor deals with fantastical elements, Captain America deals with personal liberty, and Iron Man deals with the effect of science on mankind.

While I do know of the one shot and the "real" Mandarin and I don't really disagree with anything you say here, none of that really saves IM3 for me. Hell, they could have made it better by keeping the fake Mandarin puppet story but changing the big bad to someone else from the Ten Rings organization that kidnapped him in IM1. Or they could have just actually stuck with the extremis story, which was far more compelling than what they portrayed in the film. Extremis was just tacked on in IM3, losing all of the trans-human worry it stirred up.

Huh...didn't realise just how different the Extremis elements of IR3 were to the comic. I knew that it was based on it, but it really is just tacked on after just reading the Wiki page on it. I think....on its own merits IR3 is enjoyable, but given the previous 2 and the original Extremis story it does feel a little bit disjointed and like it could've explored some greater themes of Iron Man and Tony Stark as characters. I'm not /entirely/ sure that a straight adaptation of Extremis would've worked in the MCU, as even though we've spent quite a while with the MCU characters, I'm not sure its enough for Extremis OG to really hit home as well.

They probably should've included Hail to the King in the actual film too. I think actually having the big bad be the Ten Rings with a puppet might not have worked though. As the themes addressed were different with Slatterys Manderin, to what they would be with a puppet Mandarin controlled by the actual Ten Rings.

 

[FalloutJack]

And to think that around five minutes ago some folks were trying to convince us Ant-Man was a failure.

Who the hell said THAT? I didn't know thing one about Ant-Man before watching this movie except the previews. Looked awesome, turned out awesome. I saw the previews for F4, didn't go see it, and knew it would be shit. Why? Well, look would happened the LAST two times.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Fox executives be like:

Bleh.

I don't 'hate' many people, but these jackholes are decidedly deserving of, if not outright hatred, scathing contempt.

Still waiting on those Firefly rights, you dicks.

 

[Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)]

Spoiler: Best damn thing to come from this whole movie.

This is the most baffling thing about the film because this had to go through the concept, the artist, the writer, the director, the special effects artist, the actor and the producers and no one in the process of this idea stopped and said "This is really fucking stupid."

 

[Gorrath]

Huh...didn't realise just how different the Extremis elements of IR3 were to the comic. I knew that it was based on it, but it really is just tacked on after just reading the Wiki page on it. I think....on its own merits IR3 is enjoyable, but given the previous 2 and the original Extremis story it does feel a little bit disjointed and like it could've explored some greater themes of Iron Man and Tony Stark as characters. I'm not /entirely/ sure that a straight adaptation of Extremis would've worked in the MCU, as even though we've spent quite a while with the MCU characters, I'm not sure its enough for Extremis OG to really hit home as well.

They probably should've included Hail to the King in the actual film too. I think actually having the big bad be the Ten Rings with a puppet might not have worked though. As the themes addressed were different with Slatterys Manderin, to what they would be with a puppet Mandarin controlled by the actual Ten Rings.

Right, you'd have to do some funny stuff to make a Mandarin/Ten Rings thing work if Mandarin was a puppet instead of a puppet master. I don't really think it's a great idea, just a better idea than what I saw in IM3. I also agree that a straight adaptation of Extrmis would have been hard to do but they did make a really good motion comic out of it that I found quite compelling. If you have Netflix I saw it on there along with some other very good motion comics (if you get into motion comics, a lot of people don't like them.)

I do think sticking to developing the Ten Rings in some way would have been better no matter what story they chose since it would give us something other than Hydra for the MCU to kick around, it could been a better segue into Mandarin even if they stuck with the puppet Mandarin story and it would have eliminated the sameyness of the IM film's villians gallery. Plus, Extremis was a great look at Tony Stark as a person and I feel it did a much better job at that than the IM3 story. Extremis was all about Tony STark the man vs Iron Man the machine.

I'll link everyone to my Paetron so you guys can finance me buying the rights to IM and I can make Iron Man 4: The Legend of Curly's Gold!

 

[grigjd3]

I really don't know what they were thinking casting four super heroes with actors that all look like they're overly serious teenagers.

 

[Atmos Duality]

?We love these characters, and we will find ways to make use of them...?

To be fair, nobody said the "love" or "use" had to be consensual, if you catch my meaning.

 

[FalloutJack]

I really don't know what they were thinking casting four super heroes with actors that all look like they're overly serious teenagers.

What, you mean like every frigging Power Ranger EVER? I loathe this even more for making me think about that.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

Whoa whoa whoa, I would concede that Miles Teller is a shit actor and Jaimie Bell average at best. But Michael B Jordon and Kate Mara are legitimately good actors. But when you've got a script that bad there's not really much they can do.

A poor workman always blames their tools.

If they didn't have any enthusiasm for the script, then them not acting to their fullest potential reflects badly on them as actors. They aren't paid to judge the script, they are paid to bring their A Game regardless of how bad it might be.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

But if your hammer is made of chocolate you wouldn't be a poor workman for blaming it.

See, now that's just stupid. What tradesman would even have a chocolate hammer in his kit? There are far better analogies you could have used there, but I won't make your argument for you.

But their potential is limited by the crappy script itself. One can only get so close to the moon on balloons tied to a deckchair. If Al Pacino couldn't elevate Jack and Jill how can these guys elevate this piece of crap?

That's an Adam Sandler movie. Everyone knows they are nothing more than holiday/paycheck movies, so Pacino knew he didn't have to bring his best. But this is the Fantastic Four we're talking about here. An established, and popular series, and one that Fox is trying to use to wrestle some of the crowd from the official MCU. The poor script work is laid at their feet, but the lack of experience is the actors fault. There are literally hundreds of small indie movies being made each year that they could have signed on for in order to hone their skills as actors, but them going in to a big summer movie without the skill, is their fault.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

Whoa dude, you're crusing for a warning by calling people stupid like that.

For the record, I never called him stupid, I called his analogy stupid.

How do you know that Al Pacino didn't bring his best? How could Pacino reach his greatest level of acting singing the "dunk-a-chino" song? He can't, that's the point. Even if he brought his best he could never be at his best with a shitty script and shit direction.

Doesn't matter how good of an actor those guys are, because the situation surrounding them does not allow for good acting.

Your assertion that the poor performances is down to the actor's lack of experience is baseless. And when you look at the rest of their body of work, where the acting is frequently excellent, your accusation simply doesn't stand up. The skill is there, they do not need to hone their craft to become good actors, they already are good actors.
What they need are good scripts and good direction that take advantage of their skills. Movies are a collabarative effort, a chain is only as good as it's weakest link. Kata Mara and Michael B Jordon are not the weak links here.

Want an example of Pacino's best? Scent of a Woman. That's a movie he put effort in to.

If they are as good as you claim they are, then they would have done better with what they were given. Remember that this was a big budget summer movie, you don't put movies you want to fail in that bracket.

 

[sniddy_v1legacy]

Anyone remember the Wheel of Time TV 'pilot' that a developer shat out...well floptastic 4.0 coming to a 2am timeslot/limited cinema release next decade

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

You can sprinkle glitter on a turd (aka. put good actors in a movie with shit everything else) but that will never make it gold.

This isn't a controversial concept, Forest Whitaker in Battlefield Earth, Ben Kingsly in Bloodrayne, Michael Cane in Jaws 2. There are plenty of examples of great actors failing to elevate shit movies, a chef's only as good as their ingredients.

Never meant to imply that the movie is only carried by the actors, but a bad script shouldn't automatically mean they put in the least amount of effort.

 

[Lightknight]

"We love these characters"? How. Fucking. DARE you, Fox. How dare you claim to love the Fantastic Four then proceed to butcher them beyond all recognition!? I just.... GAH!

They've also done a good job at other times and the movies are still boring.

Maybe the Fantastic Four is just archaic at this point. They never seemed to really grow up along with the rest of the universe and are still like reading 70's comics.

They do need to reboot it. What you call butchering is what has caused creations like Batman to remain relevant. It's just that Fantastic 4 is difficult to make a movie about. If you try to play it too seriously, it's lame when you have powers like stretching. If you try to play it too classic then it just isn't relevant. So what we've been seeing is various people trying to walk the line between the two and failing. This was a decent attempt, I think. Maybe editing is what screwed it up too. But at some point the Fantastic 4 is going to have to find a niche and that's going to be comedy or something entirely different.

I suppose they could also fit a science heavy niche too. But none of the movies have every really tried that route.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

"We love these characters"? How. Fucking. DARE you, Fox. How dare you claim to love the Fantastic Four then proceed to butcher them beyond all recognition!? I just.... GAH!

They've also done a good job at other times and the movies are still boring.

Maybe the Fantastic Four is just archaic at this point. They never seemed to really grow up along with the rest of the universe and are still like reading 70's comics.

They do need to reboot it. What you call butchering is what has caused creations like Batman to remain relevant. It's just that Fantastic 4 is difficult to make a movie about. If you try to play it too seriously, it's lame when you have powers like stretching. If you try to play it too classic then it just isn't relevant. So what we've been seeing is various people trying to walk the line between the two and failing. This was a decent attempt, I think. Maybe editing is what screwed it up too. But at some point the Fantastic 4 is going to have to find a niche and that's going to be comedy or something entirely different.

I suppose they could also fit a science heavy niche too. But none of the movies have every really tried that route.

This is the thing though, Fox haven't made a good movie out of the FF. One company has, and that's Pixar. It's called the Incredibles.

The problem here is the expectation that they need to 'grow up' to be a good movie. Why?

Because the stories aren't drowning in gritty realism? Like one of Batman's newest villains Professor Pyg, who goes around doing complicated surgery to mutilate people into asexual dolls? That makes him 'relevant'? That attitude is pretty much why Man of Steel fell flat, a character who's supposed to be optimistic and uplifting, murders a dude with a neck-breaker.
There are characters and plots that that kinda stuff works for; Watchmen, Swamp Thing, Punisher, hell even Wolverine in certain cases, but it doesn't work for everything.

The Fantastic Four's appeal is found in the scientific adventure and grand cosmic scale of their stories but they've always had heart.
They've dedicated issues to assessing Galactus' character and the morality of killing him given he serves a cosmic function and the hunger is hardly his fault.
They've had the Thing call off a wedding because he's afraid she'll befall the fate of other 'superhero girlfriends'.
They had an arc where Mr.Fantastic and Invisible Woman had marriage difficulties and took a sabbatical to handle it while Black Panther and Storm covered. The entire arc was the two of them drawing closer together while having a vacation on one of Saturn's moons.
Or the time Reed joined a council of ultra intelligent elites consisting of every parallel version of himself, at least 6 of whom had an Infinity Gauntlet.
I mean... I dunno which comics you've been reading but the FF has always been about Ray Bradbury in tights.

The idea that it needed to be gritty and grim to be good (and that they tried to make this latest one science heavy without actually using science) is what made it kindof a shitty movie. I'm almost certain that if the Marvel Cinematic Universe folks had a crack at this they'd get it right. They'd nail the whimsy AND the pathos. And Dr. Doom would be an actual villain with clear motivations rather than whatever the hell he was doing in the 2006 and 2015 versions.
Remember, they pulled off Rocket Raccoon and GROOT. The Fantastic Four is definitely doable without having to make it all dark, dreary and loveless.

 

[Lightknight]

"We love these characters"? How. Fucking. DARE you, Fox. How dare you claim to love the Fantastic Four then proceed to butcher them beyond all recognition!? I just.... GAH!

They've also done a good job at other times and the movies are still boring.

Maybe the Fantastic Four is just archaic at this point. They never seemed to really grow up along with the rest of the universe and are still like reading 70's comics.

They do need to reboot it. What you call butchering is what has caused creations like Batman to remain relevant. It's just that Fantastic 4 is difficult to make a movie about. If you try to play it too seriously, it's lame when you have powers like stretching. If you try to play it too classic then it just isn't relevant. So what we've been seeing is various people trying to walk the line between the two and failing. This was a decent attempt, I think. Maybe editing is what screwed it up too. But at some point the Fantastic 4 is going to have to find a niche and that's going to be comedy or something entirely different.

I suppose they could also fit a science heavy niche too. But none of the movies have every really tried that route.

This is the thing though, Fox haven't made a good movie out of the FF. One company has, and that's Pixar. It's called the Incredibles.

The problem here is the expectation that they need to 'grow up' to be a good movie. Why?

Because the stories aren't drowning in gritty realism? Like one of Batman's newest villains Professor Pyg, who goes around doing complicated surgery to mutilate people into asexual dolls? That makes him 'relevant'? That attitude is pretty much why Man of Steel fell flat, a character who's supposed to be optimistic and uplifting, murders a dude with a neck-breaker.
There are characters and plots that that kinda stuff works for; Watchmen, Swamp Thing, Punisher, hell even Wolverine in certain cases, but it doesn't work for everything.

The Fantastic Four's appeal is found in the scientific adventure and grand cosmic scale of their stories but they've always had heart.
They've dedicated issues to assessing Galactus' character and the morality of killing him given he serves a cosmic function and the hunger is hardly his fault.
They've had the Thing call off a wedding because he's afraid she'll befall the fate of other 'superhero girlfriends'.
They had an arc where Mr.Fantastic and Invisible Woman had marriage difficulties and took a sabbatical to handle it while Black Panther and Storm covered. The entire arc was the two of them drawing closer together while having a vacation on one of Saturn's moons.
Or the time Reed joined a council of ultra intelligent elites consisting of every parallel version of himself, at least 6 of whom had an Infinity Gauntlet.
I mean... I dunno which comics you've been reading but the FF has always been about Ray Bradbury in tights.

The idea that it needed to be gritty and grim to be good (and that they tried to make this latest one science heavy without actually using science) is what made it kindof a shitty movie. I'm almost certain that if the Marvel Cinematic Universe folks had a crack at this they'd get it right. They'd nail the whimsy AND the pathos. And Dr. Doom would be an actual villain with clear motivations rather than whatever the hell he was doing in the 2006 and 2015 versions.
Remember, they pulled off Rocket Raccoon and GROOT. The Fantastic Four is definitely doable without having to make it all dark, dreary and loveless.

Not necessarily gritty and grim. They need to grow into a niche role. They can't just stay in the bland past as paragons with minor or petty problems. They need to be relatable in some way and they just aren't as is. The best they've been doing is introducing soap opera style drama and that just isn't a desirable niche. Probably why the comic book series is ending too.

Everyone is failing with this IP. Not just Fox.