Free Radicals

[Blaster395]

There's a term for the definition you gave that doesn't conflict with the Radical Feminism movement, which is what the comic was talking about. That term is Tumblr Feminist, and the internet (but especially Tumblr) is full of them. I'm kind of surprised nobody has mentioned Tumblr yet, because the place is to internet faux outrage what Reddit is to image macros. And also to image macros what reddit is to image macros, along with 4chan.

Tumblr is the hosting website of the Oppression Olympics right now.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

The problem is a lot of people try to disassociate themselves from Feminism but want to be seen as supporting women's rights. Today there really is a difference at this point between someone who believes in the autonomy and equity in the eyes of the law for women, and those who are feminists. Feminism is a political theory with a lot of baggage that I think needs to have its monopoly as the only ideology that stands for women's rights revoked.

So the guy could have said this. I support women's rights, I just don't support modern feminism. Then again, if he said that he might not have a straw-man shirt on.

Perhaps the joke is that he didn't know enough about either to really make the distinction between the two, or was making a distinction he wasn't really aware of.

Honestly, the humor of the comic was just not there as far as I could see. *sighs* Why does everything on this website have to be politically inclined these days? It's getting really annoying, and up its own ass with how concerned with itself it is.

The problem with doing it that way is it gets exactly the kind of people those complaints are aimed at angry, and they go off on you for disliking a movement because of a "vocal minority" (which they're apparently too blind to notice they're a part of), or claim (like Grey Carter used this strip to) that feminists like that don't even really exist, that they're "straw feminists." Personally, I used to be a big fan of feminism, before the Slutwalk movement redefined... quite a bit more than just feminism, actually. A certain subset of the movement isn't not even recognizably a rights movement anymore, more like an outrage engine. And unfortunately, that subset is the only part of it that I seem to run into online.

Footnote: Like the word "slut," which I had never heard used to simply mean "a woman who enjoys sex" prior to the slutwalk telling me that that's what it meant, and then saying "so it shouldn't be a bad thing." Well no shit women enjoying sex isn't a bad thing, but that's not really what "slut" means, is it?

What does slut mean then? My common understanding of Slut is a derogatory term for "promiscuous women". Whenever I hear the term used against women, it's because they have had multiple sexual partners or refuse stable relationships in favour of casual sex. I don't see anything wrong with the idea of transient relationships. However society (here at least, in Ireland and I suspect with their Virgin Complex the States too) has a very negative view on women who are sexually active and in a casual way.

Maybe I'm misreading what you said in your footnote, but the Feminist movement didn't redefine the word slut. My understanding is that some tried to break down "slut shaming" by pointing out the hypocrisy (Promiscuous Men are Studs yada yada), some tried to level it out and make it a gender neutral term (so men can be labelled sluts too) and some have tried to remove the negative connotations of the term (which is where Slutwalking comes in).

The Former is a more general Feminist viewpoint (de-constructing the notion that women are sexual objects for men), while the latter seems to be far more specific... focusing on the stigma attached to certain associated appearances. Reading the wiki article (cause I'm not in the mood for scholarly reading) it apparently originated from women been told to "avoid dressing like sluts" to avoid getting raped, which understandably drew out the ire of many women, not just feminists. The "Slutwalk" is a form of protest that attempts to attack notions that, somehow, certain women are responsible for their rapes because of what they wear.

This is often seen as guilt transference or victim blaming. The argument of "well if you leave a window open when you go away, you shouldn't be surprised if stuff gets stolen" seems to brought up in contrast to it. Personally I don't think comparing a woman's dress sense to an inanimate object is helping ease tensions at all, but big the problem is what is considered "Slutty", superficially, is highly subjective. The common image is skimpy clothing, fishnets and bountiful cleavage. But what represents a "Slut" is highly dependant on personal values, for instance, in certain Islamic cultures revealing your lips in public is enough... with or without makeup. A hundred years ago a bare ankle/calf would have a woman labelled as being lude and indecent. In certain areas here simply wearing makeup (if in poor taste) is enough to get you called slutty looking.

Basically, a not too small group of women took offence to being told they should shape their lives around rape avoidance (massive exaggeration, but it's essentially what happened). From where I'm standing the Slutwalks have good intentions behind it.

That said, you mentioned it's become more of an Outrage Engine then a legitimate movement. Could you elaborate a little bit more on what you mean by that?

Basically a slut is a woman who has casual sex with so many partners that she lost count a long time ago, especially if she uses that sex as a weapon to get other things she wants. It's not simply a woman who "enjoys sex." Further, men do not get high fives for that kind of promiscuity either, not once they're out of high school, anyway. Have you ever heard the term "man-whore" used in a derogatory manner? Because I sure as hell have. The idea that only women get made fun of for promiscuity and only men get high fives for it is, at best, a Hollywood myth. What the slutwalk did was remove all nuance from the discussion surrounding the word. [edit]A slut is also not particularly choosy in her partners. A promiscuous woman has a lot of sex. A slut has a lot of indiscriminate sex. Note that I'm not saying I actually use this word, I'm just giving the definition as I understand it and have seen it used, because it differs significantly from the way modern feminists use it.[/edit]

It's also not "victim blaming" to suggest there are things the victim could have done differently to protect themselves, otherwise it's "victim blaming" to tell people to lock their doors at night. If the locked door thing is too far off to be a good analogy for you, then here's this: a man dressed in a nice suit should not walk alone in a bad part of town, otherwise he risks getting mugged. That's not victim blaming, it's sound advice. Of course in a perfect world crime wouldn't happen, but we do not and never will live in that world. "Telling men not to rape" is going to do nothing but alienate the men who already know it's a bad thing.

 

[Amir Kondori]

I honestly can't even tell what the joke in this comic is. That radical can also mean "cool"? Ha? I don't know, maybe I'm just too numb to anything involving the word feminism.

As to my definition. A radical feminist is someone that can listen to the song 'All I Want For Christmas Is You' and say it is enforcing sexist beliefs of women.

Well radical, as well as meaning extreme by the third or fourth definition given by any dictionary, also means of, relating to, or proceeding from a root. So in this case talking about radical feminists would mean original feminists. The whole comic is just muddled though, a point I have made on page 4 of this thread.

 

[Riobux]

Radical feminism holds that when it comes right down to it the differences between male and female are at best highly exaggerated by modern culture, resulting in misery as everyone invariably falls outside what is considered 'normal'.

This is what makes it radical, it questions the very basis of a lot what we mean by gender and how gender roles are formulated.

Take aggression as an example, a trait that is seen as male. A woman will get called a '*****' mostly for doing the same things that get a man called 'dynamic' and a 'natural leader'. Meanwhile because we culturally assume men to be more aggressive, we are automatically seen as a threat - which means longer prison sentences and that little bit more of a presumption of guilt in cases involving violence.

Another example is nurturing, which is seen as a female trait. You get women who just don't fit the nurturing mould, and men who do but because women are seen as the nurturing sex they are forced into it while the men who would actually be good at it are often looked down upon.

From a radical feminist perspective, homophobia and transphobia are symptoms of how this system plays out - because in both cases you have people who fall outside of their boxes, and society trying to shove them back in.

I see. I thought what your describing is feminism generally as a whole, and the different types boil down to why they exist and how they can be removed. Radical being "uh, MEN!" pretty much. Marxist Feminists because the exploitation by the upper class creates not only exploitation of working class females via typical inter-class exploitation but also because the stressed out male takes it out on the female. Liberal feminists because current policies in place allow the exploitation to exists, no one really likes it, and by altering how government policy works it can get rid of the exploitation. Black feminists combine the sexism they face by exploitation by males, but also talks about the racism they are faced in their exploitation. Dual-system feminism talks about how they combine the radical feminists view that men are built to exploit females, and the marxist view that the current currency system encourages exploitation by the upper class to the lower class (I can't spell the correct terms, sorry).

I thought what makes it somewhat radical is the rather extreme nature of the view that females are better than males. In the same way radical religious people tend to be terrorists.

I'll have to actually keep in mind your interpretation, at the very least so I don't shoot my mouth off and look like an idiot next time I rant and rave about "UGH, DEM RADICAL FEMINISTS!". Is there a name for the movement that led to things like political lesbianism though? Besides "sexist" anyway.

 

[Farther than stars]

While the comment about transphobia is a coherent criticism against some radical feminists, it by no means applies to all of them. I know some very radical radical feminists who wholeheartedly support the LGBT movement.
As to the labeling issue, it's not so much that masculine words are bad and feminine words are good, it's more about the way in which they're used. Look at the gender names for dogs for instance. 'Sire' is used to denote lordship when used for a human. And then look at the use of the name for female dogs... When little details like that are packed together, they can have a profound effect on the social psyche.

Sire is not gender name for male dog, it a general term to denote paternity in quadruped, the equivalent word to sire for a female quadruped is dam.

Fine, but that still leaves it being gender specific and 'sire' is usually used to denote male dogs.

It's normal to have gender specific term when speaking of sexual reproduction, so where the problem ?

Second what your saying is mostly used when speaking of dog lineage where using husbandry term is usually the norm, no one use sire in general conversation or writing to denote that a dog is male, outside of been a synonyms for father, generally only used in higher linguistic register or to prevent repetition, at least in this part of Canada.

Well, come over to my part of Britain then.
Anyway, the point isn't about how these words are used for animals, but how they're used for humans and the connotations they bring with them. It's these connotations that create a juxtaposition in how society views men and women. And you see it with other animals names as well. Cattle are another example. When 'bull' is used for men, it denotes strength, but when 'cow' is used for women, it's meant as an insult. This use of words creates a stereotype that men are superior to women.

 

[iniudan]

While the comment about transphobia is a coherent criticism against some radical feminists, it by no means applies to all of them. I know some very radical radical feminists who wholeheartedly support the LGBT movement.
As to the labeling issue, it's not so much that masculine words are bad and feminine words are good, it's more about the way in which they're used. Look at the gender names for dogs for instance. 'Sire' is used to denote lordship when used for a human. And then look at the use of the name for female dogs... When little details like that are packed together, they can have a profound effect on the social psyche.

Sire is not gender name for male dog, it a general term to denote paternity in quadruped, the equivalent word to sire for a female quadruped is dam.

Fine, but that still leaves it being gender specific and 'sire' is usually used to denote male dogs.

It's normal to have gender specific term when speaking of sexual reproduction, so where the problem ?

Second what your saying is mostly used when speaking of dog lineage where using husbandry term is usually the norm, no one use sire in general conversation or writing to denote that a dog is male, outside of been a synonyms for father, generally only used in higher linguistic register or to prevent repetition, at least in this part of Canada.

Well, come over to my part of Britain then.
Anyway, the point isn't about how these words are used for animals, but how they're used for humans and the connotations they bring with them. It's these connotations that create a juxtaposition in how society views men and women. And you see it with other animals names as well. Cattle are another example. When 'bull' is used for men, it denotes strength, but when 'cow' is used for women, it's meant as an insult. This use of words creates a stereotype that men are superior to women.

Like bull doesn't pejorative use that come from it.

-It is used has a insult for the police
-Bullying
-Bull headed
-Bull in a china shop

Do you really think an image of strength can only have positive side to it ? Actually lot of them also have pejorative use, due to strength been having a very close relation with conflict.

There is also steer (castrated male cattle not used has a beast of burden) which can also could be used has a verb synonym to to castrate, but that one mostly kept a very specialized use, so only applied ever applied to cattle castration.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I think a fair amount of people on this board think there's nothing but a "radical feminist" judging by the oneshot replies some topics get, and seeing more than a few people have discussions on this site. Especilly on the latest videogame trend on the Escapist.

Honestly, people with beliefs strong enough for them to leap at the notion that you're a bad person when you're simply pointing out inequities especially about videogames, nevermind other parts of culture/society are pretty common, and the slippery slope of hate for these people can easily derail a thread, and lead to discussions I frankly don't even really wanna jump into.
The anti-feminism movement runs so strong in the gender issues in videogames that people don't care what points are brought up, all they want to do is be anti-feminist, and they'll twist things around just to justify it. It's like they can't stand having anything in common with a feminist. It's not universal, but still, it feels like it's there, and honestly, growing up, it's nothing new. Bandwagon jumping is not new. Irrational people are not new.
Of course it could just be some blind loyalty to anything videogames do, too, but honestly saying neither exist as motives would likely be a mistake.

I shudder to think what Religion and Politics is like with the topic. I wouldn't touch that area with a Tazer.

I've had to come right out and say I'm not a feminist just coz I agree with a few, and have strong beliefs that haven't really been debunked on the matter that go along with a few notions that might be seen as feminist. Honestly, beyond games, I'm not really looking to make changes in society. I'm just a gamer who wants some better gender rep in games and variety with it.
I've been grilled by people trying to see where I stand, likely looking for some weakness in my presentation that they can jam a knife into.

Feminism is kinda like the Xbox/FPS/CoD community in some respects. A few obnoxious sorts have seemingly long ruined the reputation of the word/group/movement. Some people won't even recognize that feminism is trying to do good things a fair amount of times, looking only at he worst of it. Where these haters actually stand on seeking equality generally remains a mystery as they just disagree with the feminist part. Perhaps they don't want to better society because they hate some that are trying to.
Of course I'm going to have leagues of people no doubt trying to show all the bad Feminists represent, but I'll try and kabosh it now, and say I don't care.

/rant

 

[Neferius]

Free Radicals

False advertising.

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Relevant to this week's strip:

 

[Do4600]

Alright... "I have no problem with normal feminism. It's those misandrists that pretend to be feminists that I can't stand."

Yeah, "radical feminism" sits just fine next to "feminism" because what women should be advocating for is using cybernetic fertilization laboratories instead of natural human reproduction and until then women should stick to political lesbianism, you know, because it's a choice....

Oh wait, no. Lesbianism isn't a choice, isn't that what we decided with the LGBT rights movement? So even radical feminists were part of the hetero-archy in the late 60s?

Firestone in particular has some really interesting ideas. The problem is that she asserted that biology is the mechanism through which the patriarchy exerts it's control. That the very act of becoming pregnant and giving birth gives control to men because the psychological and physical effects that nature had selected in the evolutionary process denies true equality to women. What she says is that nature itself made women unequal. How do you solve a natural inequality except through unnatural means? How many unnatural means does it take before a human becomes unhuman? What are we then? Is that better than what we are now?

When someone says they're into radical feminism, I imagine cybernetic birthing chambers, because that among other things is what radical feminism is about.

So really it should be: "I have no problem with feminism, it's the cybernetic birthing chambers that bring total equality but fundamentally alter the nature and dynamics of humanity in ways that no person could possibly foresee...I can't stand."

I suppose that makes me a misogynist.

 

[Robyrt]

Haha, I love the Wikipedia link. It is exactly that kind of radical feminist that I can't stand: one who views The Patriarchy as the primary motivating force behind all of civilization, and Fighting The Power as the only legitimate goal of people who don't hate women. "The personal is always political" is a favorite quote. Yes, these people exist; no, most feminists don't agree with them. An ideology that swallows up all kinds of complicated questions in favor of a single, easy-to-apply litmus test is not fighting for equality, it's being a partisan hack.

 

[Seydaman]

Ha. Straw man Inc. Clever.

But wouldn't radical and extreme be synonyms? I guess they have different connotations, but I think people use them interchangeably.

 

[danon]

Sigh at least try to be subtle about it comic creator. You may as well have your next comic just say "Mens rights? More like patriarchy privileges amirite".

 

[Malisteen]

Eh, Radical Feminism's cool and all, but Intersectional Feminism's where it's at these days. Because gender based oppression and socially imposed and enforced gender rolls take different forms for people of different races, income levels, sexualities, etc. If your feminism starts and stops with American born, US resident citizen, het-cis, upper-class, able-bodied, mentally well, conventionally attractive, non-religious white women in their 20's to 40's, it ain't no feminism at all.

...

As for 'men's rights', it seemed like an interesting idea, tackling socially enforced gender rolls as they negatively impact men. I could get behind that. But in practice, the movement seems, well, let's just say I can't find cause to object to the classification of a number of men's rights groups as 'hate groups'. A few forays into MRA subreddits and forums didn't convince me mysandry was meaningful social phenomenon, but it very quickly convinced me that outright misogyny is still very real, as in actual living people who straight up hate women and see them as less than human, not just in terms of nebulous patriarchal social structures established in more sexist times that persist today by way of societal inertia.

 

[Atmos Duality]

So, it's a punchline that's completely undermined by a dictionary.
Good thing very few people bother to check those any more.

 

[Torque2100]

Ok, I found this comic to be EXTREMELY offensive because it implies that everyone who opposes radical feminists is dumb and uneducated.

You know what, I know what a Radical Feminist does. My best friend, my brother from another mother was RAPED by his Court-ordered therapist. He was 11, she was 38. She had been doing this shit for years and was able to get away with it because Radical Feminists raised a stink every time she was investigated. She only got busted in his case because she slipped and broke his hip, hospitalizing him for 5 months. You know what those wonderful "Radical Feminists" did when the case finally went to trial? The showed up at the courtroom, protested demanding that the charges be dropped because "women cannot rape men." They disrupted the trial, tried to storm the courtroom TWICE.

So that is what I think a Radical Feminist does, because I have seen them do it. So don't try to pretend I'm just another uneducated hater.

 

[Friis]

What does a radical feminist do?
How about this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0

Or this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80

Or this?
http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-lies-feminism/double-standard-rapeib/

Maybe this?
http://agentorangefiles.com/

This?
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2011/06/03/lorena-bobbitt-and-the-politics-of-hate/

How about having anything critical of feminism be labeled as hate speech on Facebook, so it can be promptly removed for "violating community guidelines"?
How about demonizing the entire male sex by changing the public narrative to see domestic violence and rape as something men commit and women are victims of when in reality it's not a gendered problem at all?
I could go on and on with ever more examples, but I have to get to work... and I suppose it's important to remember that "Not all feminists are like that."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQWoNhrY_fM