thaluikhain said:
Eh, I've always felt that complaints about the "friend zone" were just people trying to avoid thinking too hard about why women chose someone else. If she doesn't see you that way, then she doesn't see you that way, no reason to make a fuss about it.
Fucking thank you.
I am so sick of this constant bitching about "the friend zone" as if the woman is doing something wrong.
She isn't. If she doesn't want to be with you, then she doesn't want to be with you. And banging on about how this is supposedly "unfair" because you're "the only person who treats her right" isn't going to solve anything and is completely counterproductive to a relationship. If it's not gonna happen, it's not gonna happen. Don't sit around acting as though guys are just buffet items for the girl to choose from.
It's not a choice between dickheads and great guys. If a girl isn't attracted to you then get over it and appreciate the friendship you've developed with them. If you're sitting around being nice to a girl at your own inconvenience in the hopes that she'll get with you even though she doesn't seem interested, and you maintain that it's unfair that she picked someone else, then you obviously don't understand attraction (much less the woman you supposedly like) and need to do some serious growing up before getting into a relationship.
This is not a case of winning someone over, people. It's a case of putting yourself out there and being whoever you want to be, as long as you're respectful of others. And if a girl likes that, then good for you! don't sit around trying to be someone for this girl only to get pissed off when she *shock horror* decides she doesn't want to be with you, as unsurprising as that outcome is. Ever think that doing everything to please her will never, ever work? I'm not saying you should be mean - by all means, be respectful and polite and kind! but don't make a concious effort to be whoever you think she needs the most in the hopes of getting her, because that's an ass-backwards way of looking at it that also has the unfortunate side-effect of making you look completely spineless.
The reason she's more likely to go for a complete jerk is because the jerk at least seems confident. She'll learn the hard way sooner or later (assuming he really IS a jerk) about what a dick the guy is if he isn't treating her well. Why not just try to be the better man, instead of whining about how it isn't going your way?
TL
R, If you were right for this girl then you wouldn't be acting as though you're just trying to bait a particularly stubborn fish by tending to it's every need. If she's worth the huge amounts of time you spent on her, then she must be worth your respect. So give it to her, instead of treating her like some kind of commodity that you're attempting to "win".
barbzilla said:
If she says no, don't stop being friends with her, but put your foot down when she wants to complain about other guys. Your time and feelings are valuable too.
They certianly are, but you can't blame her if she hasn't got a fucking clue that she's hurting them and wasting it, can you? after all, you've been acting as her friend for a while, so what right do you have to act as though you've suffered? you can blame her all you want, but you got here as a result of your own actions. If you'd stood on your own two feet earlier, then you might not have won her but you'd at least have gotten away with your dignity, and maybe a bit more respect and interest from her.
YOU were the one who chose to piss away so much time on someone who might never want to be with you, it was YOU who continued this despite feeling as though it was heading nowhere, and it's YOUR fault if that blows up in your face. So man up and deal with it. What are you going to say? "Hey, I know we're good friends and all, and I'm going to prove that I respect you and care about you by telling you to shut up whenever you want to talk about your guy problems, just because I arrogantly think that I'm the best thing for you, and I don't believe you know right from wrong, you know, cos I really like you?". Are you really going to label her decision to keep things friendly between the two of you as "wrong and misguided" simply because you believe yourself to be the best possible option? She put her trust in you as a friend and you backed it up by being so nice and friendly with her, it's PERFECTLY reasonable for her to want to talk to you about guys.
It's not like you were ever betrayed, if you don't want to make your feelings clear early on and see where it goes, or continue to be her friend despite rejection, then you have no right to complain when she wants to do something as reasonable as talk to you about guys. Be glad you're the go-to guy for her, despite the fact that you enjoy complaining about her making the "wrong" decisions, simply because she didn't pick you. If thatreally was the case, then she must just be foolish, right? so she's not worth your time. Problem solved - assuming that IS why she never "chose" you, and let's be frank, that is by far and large the least likely reason.
She isn't "lucky" to have a guy like you. She's unlucky because the guy who is trying to be the most attentive to who she is is also, unfortunately, exhibiting traits of the kind of person that very, very few women want to be with. Can you
imagine if a girl was constantly trying to be whoever she thought you needed most, basing herself around your desires rather than being headstrong and independent? can you imagine how unbearably DULL someone like that would seem to you? She made herself clear already, so why are you acting as thought she's been leading you on?
You haven't been wronged just because you chose to put far more faith than would normally be advisable in an unlikely outcome with someone who you know isn't attracted to you. Stop acting as though her desire to be with other guys is some kind of unfair result. It might not be what you want, but people are complex and you're going to have to deal with these situations. I'm not a master on this kind of thing by any means, but it doesn't take a genius to see that this approach is not only completely inneffective when it comes to getting her attention, but will only ever prove self-destructive.
Maybe it's just me, but I think eventually you'll learn that you're only going to throw your life away if you adopt this attitude towards every potential girlfriend. It involves putting a lot of time and effort into doing something that never works, and is essentially selfish. She didn't demand that you spend that time on her, she didn't ask you to be who she wanted as best you could with the promise of being together at the end of it as long as you fit the type as best you could.
You did it all because you thought it would get you what you wanted, and when it didn't, you started whining about it - even going so far as to make derogatory statements about the girl who you apparently admire, and who put her trust in you as a friend, just because she didn't "choose" you... as if who you're attracted to is some kind of concious decision that she's stubbornly holding back on.
And in the end, how "respectful" can you possibly claim to be? I'm pretty sure that if anyone found something like this and discovered that it was written by a close friend of theirs, they'd be pretty upset, and would feel betrayed. And I don't think that would be an unrasonable stance for her to take if the girl you're talking about were to read this. I'd love to see you try to justify the things you're saying if she were ever to read them.
If you think so highly of her, why are you writing stuff like this behind her back? All the time you spend waiting on her, yet you obviously don't hold her in high enough esteem to respect her decisions or to deal with how you feel about them like a mature person. It becomes fairly clear that you don't respect her or admire her - you just want her. Your gestures are not only ineffective for reasons which should be clear, but they're hollow. You're lying. You're acting like her friend, like the perfect guy for her just to get her. Clearly you're not the perfect guy for her at all.
The perfect guy for her doesn't go around saying shit behind her back just because he's a little pissy that his blatant pandering didn't get him what he wanted. That's the sort of pathetic behavior that is on a par with the kind of jerks who would use her and dump her. How much better than them can you claim to be, when all you do is act nice to her just to get her to do what you want her to? that's manipulative and cruel, especially when you're lucky enough to have her put her trust in you.
TL
R (lol, again) stop blaming the woman for your own fuck ups like a petulant child, and stop claiming you are the best guy for her when you're providing evidence to the contrary with every complaint you make about her refusal to give you what you want.
I'm sorry if I offended you with this man. I didn't want to be so harsh but it came out that way. But I believe in everything I said 100%, and I'm willing to risk moderator wrath for it.
You might counter this by telling me that you genuinely, truly love this girl. And I might believe you.
But if you do, you need to start acting like it.
Yeah, look at me. acting like I know what I'm talking about.... i stand by everything I just typed, though.
Troublesome Lagomorph said:
Its much, much worse when they decide to put you in the friend zone AFTER you dated them. My experience was dating for ~5 months, getting the cold shoulder for the last month, then at the end of her saying "I love you like a friend, so we're breaking up."
If you loved me like a friend, why didn't you say that from the beginning?
Maybe she was struggling with her feelings. Maybe she had a hard time dealing with it. Maybe she's just as deserving of a bit of sympathy and understanding in this situation as you are.
But hey, if you find it easier to pretend like you were the sole victim, then be my guest. Hell, a lot of people here seem to have already taken it upon themselves to believe that the woman's decisions, flaws and lack of consience are the only reason a relationship ever goes wrong if cheating isn't involved, so fuck it. I may as well hop on the mysoginist bandwagon and join the ranks of men who complain endlessly about women while wondering why they can never keep one around.
imahobbit4062 said:
...Don't even get me started on the whole "FZ" bullshit. I have been dealing with something along those lines for the past 10 months. It has made me become an even more miserable bastard then I was before all of it. I can't seem to get anything through to this woman.
hey, come on in! join the party! stick around, I like having some fuel for my compulsive raving.
Palademon said:
CaptainTrilby said:
you guys. Fucking read my post. Now.
Amyler said:
Mallefunction said:
Look, stop blaming women just because you never had the courage to ask the girl out in the first place.
This, this, one thousand
bloody times, this. Two years ago I was a passive little sissy, dropping luckwarm hints and actually saying nothing. I bitched about the friend zone all the time to other people but never bothered to actually ask her out. Know what happened when I did? She said no! Why? Because she had gotten to know me as a friend and wanted me to stay as a friend? How does the story end? We're still friends and hang out a fair bit. It's fun.
The point is, if you fancy someone, don't pin after them for months, being a slight creep and never actually asking them out, because it will backfire!
If you want to go out with someone, it's okay to ask them to go out with you!
I like you, sir.
Lunar Shadow said:
People seem to think their are only two types of guys: Cocksuckers and "nice guys". The Cocksuckers should be obvious as to what it is, the asshole that thinks he is the shit. The second is more complicate. Being a "nice guy" and actually being a nice guy are completely different. The "nice guy" is the one that waits on his interest hand and foot, never standing up to her or contradicting her. Then they get in a huff cause their putting her on a pedestal isn't working, and that she would be lucky to have a guy like you. Most of the stories of these guys tends to leave out rather glaring character flaws on the part of the guy, but I won't go into that. I know this cause I used to think like that, then I actually got a girlfriend. Being nice does not mean being submissive and subservient. Treat your love interest as a human being, not as a goddess. (Entering conjecture territory, feel free to correct me, as I only have the male perspective) Most women don't want a servant, they want an equal with whom they can share their life with and all that jazz. Woman don't really think THAT much differently than men. Learned that going to a school that was 75% female. People actually thought I was gay because I went through high school single despite the 75% female thing.
Watcheroftrends said:
Landing in the friend zone is the result of not being a challenge to the girl, and not being forward with your intent. To put it simply, you're being the "nice guy".
What I am about to say can easily be contended, but I believe it is true more often than not.
Women are attracted to the alpha male personality. Ideal male mates are supposed to be confident, independent, and totally in control. In fact, these personal traits make you so "powerful" that you are supposed to be a high value target to women. You need to act as though you can get any girl you want at any time because you are king shit.
With this mindset, you must not see her as a person for whom you are supposed to please, but rather she is supposed to feel as though she needs you. This means literally cutting down contact and making it a point to show that you will pursue other women if she is not willing to take you seriously. Cutting to the chase, you must stop being her "friend" first, and assume that she will feel attracted to your traits enough to where she is willing stop being your "friend" because she wants you for more than that.
The hardest thing about all of this is that you're not going to want to do anything to upset her or to make her think that you don't want her. This is the biggest mistake you can make, though. Every other guy out there who doesn't care whether they get "her" or not is immediately seen as a higher value target because they are superior to her. You, on the other hand, appear needy.
To avoid entering the friend zone, withhold your "want to" from her until she has clearly demonstrated interest in you, as well as has demonstrated her personal value. Then it makes sense that you like her because she has now met your personal criteria.
Both of you get QFT. Although to the second guy.... damn, you know? I would have tried to put it in a nicer, less, uh.... scheming way. I mean, you're kind of right, but that's some Machiavellian shit right there.
Phlakes said:
Alright, well my first girlfriend broke up with me for the second time just before high school started. She said she didn't want to put our friendship at risk by going into high school in a relationship.
It was just an excuse so she could be free to date everyone she met that year. And she did. And then moved. Long story.
And please remember from this example that we men are also prone to making bad decisions when it comes to women (no offence man). Both genders have their bad points when it comes to shit like this, so let's all grow up and get over them in the hopes that we can smooth it all out, yeah?
Again, not talking about you there Phlakes. I too have been there. Shit just happens sometimes. We learn, we move on.
Kataskopo said:
InterAirplay said:
A lot of cool, correct stuff
Dude, you are so right. I used to think about the unfairness of the Friend Zone and all that, but after some thinking, I realized that you are not there to please her, and if she doesn't want you, well, she doesn't want you.
It's though shit, and it's still a bit hard to remember it whenever a girl says no, but, well, a lot of us need to grow up and mature and all that.
Uh, thank you. I'm glad you did.... something about this topic just causes me to rage. I didn't come off as mental or opinionated? well... thank god.
I've encountered so many guys saying the exact same thing, and I really, really wish they'd stop it. It just isn't fair on the person that they're attracted to, it isn't fair in the slightest. I probably sound really arrogant here myself, but I can't believe how many of them can go for years and years doing this again and again, and still manage to believe that it's not their problem, but just something irritating that girls do (I've been there myself, a long time ago). And no matter how much you tell thm, they refuse to accept responsibility for how it turns out.
Truth of the matter is, a girl is looking for a guy who is confident and headstrong but isn't a jerkass, to put it in broad, general terms. I honestly believe there's a forum out there full of girls starting threads where the OP says stuff like "So there's this guy I really like who's really, really nice, and he's great, but he's just so... y'know? clingy, it's like he just wants to be whoever I want, just so he can be with me, which is a huge turnoff. His friendship is nice, but it's like he only wants to please me just to get with me, and that's so fucking creepy. And I met this other guy who seems really confident and strng, but he's kind of a dick... I dunno who to choose, I just wish there was a fucking middle ground here!"
