Friends Zone (AKA why aren't we doing this?)

[Augmented Conscious]

Oh the horrible friend zone and the horrible horrible women who put us there! Is there no end to their selfish manipulative backhanded attempts to lend us their trust and respect?

Here's the bottom line guys. You can't plan to not be all the places you don't want to go. No one planning a road trip decides on all the places they don't want to visit. No missile guidance system marks all the non-targets it doesn't want to hit. No one going to college first considers all the degree programs they don't want to study, and just as in those cases, no one ends up with a girlfriend by considering all the things they don't want from her.

By complaining about things you and getting and don't want, you make it naked and obvious that you have never considered, and therefore made plans and taken action to get what you do want. What is it you want from women, really? And what sort of woman is it who is most likely to give these things to you? If you knew the answers to these questions, you wouldn't be sitting here complaining about your 'condition'; you'd be out there in the field making plans, taking action, trying, failing, correcting for mistakes and getting results.

Oh, and isn't it just grand that a woman's friendship in this scenario is considered a punishment? No guy complains about how undesirable another man's friendship is, and that's because a man's friendship is worth more than a woman's is. Obviously. Next time you complain about all the manipulative bitches in your life who lock you away in the friend zone because they hate you, remind yourself of where you would be right now without the mothers, sisters, aunts, nieces, and perfect female strangers who 'punished' you with their advice, trust, wisdom and guidance when you needed it to become who you are now.

 

[rammst13n]

I get so sick of hearing women complain about not being able to find a great guy when they are complaining to the person who is always there for them. The guy who never fails to answer the phone when she calls (even if he is busy). The guy who can quote back whole sentences of what she said a week ago. The guy who knows their favorite color, number, flower, movie, or their fears and doubts. The guy who could plan the perfect date at the drop of a hat because he knows what turns you on and find enjoyable.

This^, honestly all of this just happened to me, she told me she had a dream about us hooking up, I told her i liked her, one week later i'm apologizing even though I didn't do anything wrong, she spent a lot of time talking about this guy she liked and how nice he was and how he cared about her, but I was the one up till four in the morning everyone listening to her while he wasn't even responding to her texts, I was the one who had to talk to her when she cut herself, or when she felt depressed,frankly i could plan a perfect date right now because even though she know hates me I still care about her, but apparently that doesnt matter, but this thread is great because ALL of this has happened to me multiple times

 

[Cleo Cowdrey]

This doesn't just happen to boys. I have had this happen before and it sucks. I have also dated friends before, i think you just have to find someone with a more open mind who is open to possibilities.

 

[Espsychologist]

I'm sure you think you've never put someone in the FZ, but really, you probably have, and you also most likely never noticed. Not to call you out, but I have seen level-headed, otherwise-completely-sane women do this and never acknowledge it because they weren't aware they were doing it. It just happens. When women stopped being property and/or a status symbol for men, whole new avenues of possibility opened up for male/female relationships, not all of them good.

 

[Setsuri21]

Protip: Most women decide for themselves whether or not you're a viable dating option in the first five minutes of actively observing you. If you don't make your intentions known during that window of time, you are likely going to be relegated to the friend zone.

However, if you were not aware of these first five minutes of observation, you probably have a second chance in the first five minutes of conversation. Use them wisely to communicate your interest and availability. She may not be interested at first, or she may not be interested ever, but afterwards you have to let the idea of "you" as a viable dating option sink in.

In the meantime, do whatever, you know? Your life doesn't revolve around her. You just fucking met!

It is not always true thought that women make that decision in the first 5 minutes. This time frame is for the initial categorization. It is also not fair to imply that women are the only ones who do this. I myself have a 1 day time frame. If I don't find you "dating" material in that first day I slide you over to the friends slot. If you come up to me and profess your love to me and I am not interested I will tell you so. I am not going to stop being friends with you (but I will give you some space while you deal with any emotional issues this causes), and if things change (and they sometimes do) I will let you know.

Now if you are approaching a woman for the first time with the intent to date, then yes you have a small window of time to make your intentions known and have her consider you romantically. After this point you have a bit of time to convince her of why she should date you (I feel I am wording this poorly and I am about to get some more hate) and spend that time building a bit of mystery yet giving her enough information to make a real decision. You have to be yourself if you want the relationship to go anywhere though, otherwise it is a gamble on how your personalities mesh.

Final point being get on with your life, very valid information. Don't stop living your life because you are talking to a woman.

1 day? Damn. If that is an average amongst people then I suppose I'm in a bad way. I'm introverted, and shy to boot. When I meet someone for the first time, you'd be lucky to get much more than a quiet "hi" out of me, and thats if I was introduced by a mutual friend. Although, I can honestly say I've never been really attracted to anyone beyond a crush, so maybe I just haven't found the right person yet.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

The friend zone is really a myth, at least in the way guys tend to think of it. Becoming a friend isn't some kind of weird thing that completely prevents them from ever thinking of you romantically, that's a frankly retarded concept.

Personally, I maintain that the best way to form relationships is when they grow out of a close friendship. That is exactly how I found myself in a relationship with my fiancée.

I suspect that if a girl tells you that they 'didn't want to put your friendship at risk' or something to that effect, they're simply being polite. Becoming a close friend isn't going to stop them from getting feelings for you (if anything, quite the opposite), but people have certain things they look for and when they say no that's why, it has precisely nothing to do with being a friend.

 

[TheKruzdawg]

I'm on a fucking roll. Soon this thing is gonna be bigger than every other post on this page combined!

I felt like adding to your already ridiculously long post.

I used to think I was in the "friend zone." Insert typical situation and all that jazz. I never really complained about it to people and I didn't really try to change myself for her, I just tried to be myself. But about a year later, after we went to different schools and slowly drifted apart, I realized that I hadn't really put myself out there in a way that would give me a definite yes or no answer. So it was basically my fault.

You made a LOT of great points in that long rant/truth. If you like the girl enough to want to date her, take the fucking chance! It's worse to keep thinking about what if and why and all that. At least if you go for it you can safe yourself a lot of time, energy, and worrying.

Truth of the matter is, a girl is looking for a guy who is confident and headstrong but isn't a jerkass, to put it in broad, general terms. I honestly believe there's a forum out there full of girls starting threads where the OP says stuff like "So there's this guy I really like who's really, really nice, and he's great, but he's just so... y'know? clingy, it's like he just wants to be whoever I want, just so he can be with me, which is a huge turnoff. His friendship is nice, but it's like he only wants to please me just to get with me, and that's so fucking creepy. And I met this other guy who seems really confident and strng, but he's kind of a dick... I dunno who to choose, I just wish there was a fucking middle ground here!"

That is hilarious and I hope such a place actually exists. I don't know if this has been said much here, but I'm sure us (guys) are as capable of this kind of thing as girls are. I for one have found out years later that there were certain girls who liked me in high school and wanted to go out with me but we were friends and they never made a move. So basically, the exact reverse of the usual situation. Was I aware of this at all at the time? NOPE. Not a clue. It happens. I'll say this again If you want to go out with someone, they need to know it too. Communication. It's something you need in an actual relationship and it goes both ways.

Don't be afraid to put yourself out there. If it doesn't work, oh well. Try again next time. I'm pretty sure I've missed out on some possible relationships because I didn't have the guts to actually say I was interested to the girl. I just hoped that randomly one day she would realize it and we'd be together.

TL;DR: Wow, never thought I'd have to use that... Anyway, just be yourself and actually talk to her about your feelings. You'll seem confident (or at least more than before) and you'll get an answer one way or the other, which is a better outcome than vain hope and constant worrying/complaining.

 

[TheKruzdawg]

Snip

Brilliant. Similar to what I just wrote. If I had just quoted you, I could have saved myself some time!

But seriously, great points. A woman's friendship shouldn't be considered a punishment. I like having women as friends and usually I have more women that I consider friends than I do men. I just find them easier to talk to in a lot of cases.

 

[TheKruzdawg]

*gasp gasp* I can't stop ranting about this fucking subject!

Don't forget to breathe! We can offer people all this advice and hope they take it, but the ball's in their court now. It's up to them to put up or shut up. It's time to get down to business, not to defeat the Huns this time, but to man up and take action.

Ready. Set. GO!

Edit: I wanted to add something else. I want to issue a challenge to ANYONE who claims to be stuck in the "friend zone" and who hasn't told this guy/girl how they feel to do it before the end of the day. Call/text/email/facebook/whatever. Put yourself out there. Ask her to go get coffee or see a movie or something. Then, I challenge you again to come back her and let us know what happened. I think this will be a big step to changing your "situation" one way or the other.

 

[barbzilla]

Snip

I have started the next thread on the topic of manning up

*gasp gasp* I can't stop ranting about this fucking subject!

Don't forget to breathe! We can offer people all this advice and hope they take it, but the ball's in their court now. It's up to them to put up or shut up. It's time to get down to business, not to defeat the Huns this time, but to man up and take action.

Ready. Set. GO!

Edit: I wanted to add something else. I want to issue a challenge to ANYONE who claims to be stuck in the "friend zone" and who hasn't told this guy/girl how they feel to do it before the end of the day. Call/text/email/facebook/whatever. Put yourself out there. Ask her to go get coffee or see a movie or something. Then, I challenge you again to come back her and let us know what happened. I think this will be a big step to changing your "situation" one way or the other.

I am going to support this challenge 100% make your feelings know and report back

 

[CerealKiller214]

There are two ways of getting along with the FZ:
1.The Easy Way) You understand what she means with stuff like "I don't want to ruin our friendship" and leave it like that.(Worked for me)
2.The Harder Way) You never talk to girls. Except you only want to have a "real" relationship and try not to fall into the "friend gap" by spending the least possible with her but also spending enough time with her to get to know her and for her to have feelings towards you. If she then tries to do friendshiply stuff with you just stop spending time with her. Since you didn't spend that much time together it isn't that obvious. But if you are really desperate try it again 2 months later. She might have changed her view towards you.
Funny that I write something like that even though I'm pretty stupid when it comes to girls(I always try to make it a serious relationship way to fast).

 

[Lilani]

-snip-

I'm finding myself disagreeing with the fact that you seem to think this problem is unique to guys.

See, the inherent issue with the FZ is the guy likes the girl, but the girl doesn't like the guy. You wouldn't believe how many times this has happened to me, as a female. With a guy. They're called crushes, my friend, and they happen to everyone.

But here's the thing: we're both wrong. There is no way to solve this problem. If both do not want a relationship, then there is nothing that can be done about that. If the girl is friends with you, and she is even a little interested in finding a relationship, then I guarantee at some point she has thought about the possibility of going out with you. Hell, she's probably already stuck your last name in place of hers just to see how it sounds. I know I've done it. And if she realizes she wants it that badly, then she will jump at an offer you give her.

But I'm afraid a relationship is a two-way street. Just because you like her doesn't mean she is 100% guaranteed to like you. Our problem is simply getting this message across without having the entire friendship go up in smoke. Meaning if she does pull the "I don't want to ruin our friendship" card, that is just her way of letting you down without using the exact words "I don't like you like that." We females are just like that: we prefer to use indirect language to imply what we mean. The problem is, in my experience anyway, guys can only function with direct language. They don't do subtlety. At. All. They need to hear the EXACT words "YES" or "NO" to be certain.

So we tell them we just want to be friends, and the guy sees it as the equivalent of "I never want to see you again." But that's not true. That just means she doesn't want to go out with you. Nothing more. If she didn't want to be your friend, she would have said it. It is not her intention to torture you, and she likely doesn't realize it bothers you. We talk about relationships with our friends. It's what we do. It's a part of our nature. And if it really bothers you that much, just tell her. You tell your other friends when they are annoying you, why should that be any different? And if you still don't like that idea, then look at it this way: what have you got to lose?

So please, just spare me the whole "don't you realize I'm perfect for you" bit. If she believed you were perfect for her, she would have accepted your offer. Trust me. I know. And don't hold your problems with rejection against her. If you are too selfish to look beyond what you want long enough to see what she wants, then she probably deserves better anyway.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

Do neuro-typicals really do this?
Ugh, it almost makes me glad It's impossible for me to recognize any of their social cues and will therefore never, ever get a date unless I meet someone honest and straight-forward enough to just ask me straight up.
This kind of social game is why we work better than you, even if no one actually cares about that.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I would however like to add that when a guy (or gal) asks a girl (or boy) out then I do think they deserve a real and honest reply. It can take quite a bit of nerve to ask and even if it's negative I do think you owe it to someone to be upfront and honest with them.

Telling them they do possess the qualities you look for in a friend but not the qualities you personally look for in a partner is fine. But don't tell them they're such a great person and such a nice guy but you don't want to risk the friendship, that's just giving false hope.

A blunt rejection may hurt but it's a hurt that heals. An extremely vague and positive sounding rejection will just linger and fester, keeping the guy (or gal) miserable for a much longer time.

They posed you a honest and heartfelt question. They deserve a honest and heartfelt answer.

In the example quoted I completely agree with you that "No way! get fucked..fuck off!" is a horrible response. But if someone seriously asks you if you're interested I do think it's a better answer then a vague, positive sounding ambiguous rejection.

Thank you for saying this. People keep saying that guys just have to understand that no means no, regardless of the qualifiers, but honestly, how are we supposed to know that until we've been through the wringer a few times? The people who get friendzoned tend to be high school or early college aged, and inexperienced with dating. Speaking from experience, a clear rejection is a heck of a lot less painful than false hope. One option is a painful truth, but it's a clean cut; the other option is a pernicious lie, told with the intentions of sparing pain, but it's like a dirt filled wound that has had some pain killers applied. The former heals pretty quickly, even though it can hurt at first. The latter takes ages to heal, often doesn't heal properly, and has a delayed pain function.

Now, I'm not saying that the guy is innocent, but both parties need to be honest here. Ladies: if you want a guy to be friends with you but not to date him, don't lead him on. Be up front that you are not interested in dating him. Don't be afraid to completely kick him to the curb if he doesn't get the picture. Gentlemen: don't be a doormat, and learn now that all of the pretty ways women have of turning you down are just that -- methods of turning you down. Don't cling onto a false hope, no matter how much it seems like the girl is saying she'd be into you if the circumstances were just slightly different. Frankly, she wouldn't be. Finally, if you're at a point where she wants to be your friend but you can't see her as anything but a potential mate, just break it off with her. Don't be that guy that follows her around like a puppy, hoping and praying that she'll realize how lucky she is to have you. Even if she really is lucky to have you (which isn't a given) she's not going to realize it any time soon.

 

[spartan231490]

So with the current influx of relationship advice topics popping up the past two weeks I have noticed a few things about the "Friends Zone".

First things first, lets clarify what I mean by friends zone. When I speak of the Friends Zone (FZ from now on as it is going to be a recurring theme here) I mean the unfortunate out come of one friend developing a romantic interest in another who does not reciprocate the feelings. 99% of the time this is the guy who develops the feelings. It usually starts as something innocent, but it can also spawn from poor judgement one night. Whether it comes from just being around each other so much or from making out one night when you were both drunk, the effect is the same. Feelings have changed.

The guy usually knows he is in the FZ and will make the attempt to win the girl over by being there for her and showing her how great of a guy he is. You call us up and complain about the guy you just broke up with or the loser your dating and tell us how you wish you could find someone like us to date. We are listening. At some point (usually after hearing about how you wish you could find a guy just like us) we will confront you with our feelings. There are times when this works out, but usually we get "I don't want to ruin our friendship" or some variation on this (I have heard them all).

I get so sick of hearing women complain about not being able to find a great guy when they are complaining to the person who is always there for them. The guy who never fails to answer the phone when she calls (even if he is busy). The guy who can quote back whole sentences of what she said a week ago. The guy who knows their favorite color, number, flower, movie, or their fears and doubts. The guy who could plan the perfect date at the drop of a hat because he knows what turns you on and find enjoyable.

Women reading this post, if you are reading this and know I am talking about you stop toying with this guy. If we are important enough to give us 20%-40% of your life already then we are important enough to give a chance. Maybe it works out, maybe it doesn't, we have proven we are good friends and if it doesn't work out no hard feelings. If it does work though, imagine waking up to a guy 10 years down the road who still wants to listen to you ramble on for 4 hours about the most inane stuff just because we love hearing your voice. You will be glad you gave him the chance.

Even if you don't want to give that person a chance because you are just not into him for whatever reason, fine stop using him. Stay friends, but your privileges of complaining about the losers you choose to date is over. Don't torture him with this crap.

Guys if this is you, make sure she knows how you feel. Don't hide it. You are not going to feel any better if you go through life with What ifs on your mind. If she says no, don't stop being friends with her, but put your foot down when she wants to complain about other guys. Your time and feelings are valuable too.

Just for kicks and giggles I would love to hear the just friends lines you have received in the past (IE: I don't want things to change between us)

EDIT: I am not looking for relationship advice, I am currently in an early stage relationship and having a blast. The purpose of this post was to point out some inconsistencies.

Firstly, great points and I agree wholeheartedly. The only exception I have is calling a close friend-ship taking advantage of someone. We share the relevant points of our lives and relationships with our friends, that's not taking advantage.

As for the friends lines I have received, I have gotten the simple "I don't have those feelings for you." line, and actually the example you gave. "I don't want things to change between us."

 

[TheKruzdawg]

SNIP

*CLAP CLAP CLAP*

It's great to hear the other side of this and let people know that it happens to everyone. Dealing with rejection is a part of life and you have to find a way to deal with it. At least for me, I'd rather still have a girl stay my friend if I can't go out with her than lose her completely. I had that happen with a girl I liked my freshman year of high school and managed to remain friends and I'm glad we did. It was much better to still have her in my life than lose her because I couldn't handle the rejection.

And I completely agree with your point about men lacking subtlety. We as a gender, myself DEFINITELY included, can be as dense as a post. For example, my last girlfriend was apparently sending me signals for 3 weeks before I caught on and figured out she was interested in me. I eventually came around and things went really well for 3 years.

 

[teisjm]

Protip to avoiding friend zone issues:

Ask yourself this, would you enjoy the company of said girl if you knew for certain, that you would never EVER go on a romantic date, or have sex?
If the answer is no, then stop fooling yourself, and wasting her time, cause you're not really friends.
You are gonna get more and more frustrated, and when you finally break down and confess, she will be a lot mroe sad to loose someone she thought was a good friend, instead of someone she had only known for a short time.

There's no problem in having friends you could picture yourself having a relationship with or having sex with, as long as you are fine with hanging out with them without ever having either.
But if sooner or later, it's gonna come down to you forcing her to take an "all or nothing" decision, in lack of a better word, bettter get that out before you both have a lot to loose.

Also, if i was told by a girl, who i had considered a friend for a long time, that she had a crush on me, and had had it for a long time, i would be a bit freaked out about entering a relationship with her.
I mean, if she had had those feelings for a logn time, and it was all new to me, it would create some kind of awkward imbalance in the relationship, kinda like dating your own stalker.

And how about her? this wouldn't be some random girl i had only known for a short while, but someone i considered a friend and genuinely wouldn't wanna see get hurt, whom i knew would be way more emotionally invested than me from the start, and way more hurt if it turned out to not work out.
Of course you could just roll with it, give it a shot, hit the sack and not give a fuck when it didn't turn out to work out, but would you really do that to someone you cared about as a friend, whom you knew would be hurt, even though you might not? Cause then you should reconsider whether she really was a friend to you in the first place.

 

[Zeetchmen]

Read and be educated on the woman mind

http://www.laddertheory.com/

 

[Kahunaburger]

Read and be educated on the woman mind

http://www.laddertheory.com/

...oh wait, that site isn't a joke? People actually take it seriously?

 

[Loner Jo Jo]

Oh God, the friend zone. I hate it when guys think that only they have to suffer form it. I've known plenty of girls who have been friend zoned. Guys say they want someone chill, that they can play games with, that doesn't do all that girly drama crap. You find a girl like that and you can't see her as anything other than another bro to hang out with. She might as well not even have a vagina! It's kind of ridiculous.

Honestly, I've been friend zoned several times myself, and all I can is you do it to yourself. You love this person. You make a move, they reject you, and you stick around hoping to win them over, or you just sit there not making a move at all because you're too scared to "ruin the friendship." The way I see it, I can turn a corner and make a new friend, and everyone knows nothing is going to happen between you two. If the people you hang out with make you miserable, stop hanging around them! It's quite simple really.