Funny events in anti-woke world

Silvanus

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No, we had to bid against you too. And France, and Italy, and Spain, and Germany, etc.
Right. So your contention is that... a single state didn't bid as much as the UK, and therefore all 50 states bidding against eachother in aggregate cannot cause more impact than the UK?

For the same reason the UK bought more ventilators than it needed, a fear that it wouldn't be enough later.
That doesn't answer the question. The US did not need to import ventilators. It was not competing with the UK to get ventilators into the country. So how did the UK's order cause the US to be unable to mobilise the ventilators it already had?

You literally haven't, because if you did you would recognize that over 75% of any supply chain is in private industry since we live in a liberal society. So you wouldn't have brought up supply chains at all in the face of government, you'd only talk about one thing.
Aaaaaand we're back to your refusal to recognise the government's involvement in tendering government contracts to private entities.

I wasn't defending so much as stating that it happens because you said it literally could not work.
No. You might have forgotten, but you were quite explicitly arguing against government involvement in the process. And then, a few posts later, it changes to... government involvement is fine now, just nebulously-defined "unelected bureaucrats" are bad. Which is utterly off-target, since the entire dispute started with you arguing against positions being held by elected representatives, not unelected officials.


That is in fact literally how it is outside of countries with trade embargos and some influence games (like the divide between countries that use Sinovac and countries that use western vaccines). Yes, unless a company in particular is actively choosing not to engage with a country or countries, their product is available to anyone who's willing to buy, which will be global. I can't believe I have to explain this.
*Facepalm*

The ventilators at a GM or Ford warehouse are available for purchase overseas. The ventilators in the Strategic National Stockpile are categorically not.

They wouldn't even have to be directly competing with the US, if the UK is buying up ventilators that could have been sold elsewhere if they hadn't (which they did), then there are people who are competing with the UK over them. If they lose to the UK, they have to get their ventilators from somewhere else, which could conflict with the US. That's how shortages work. I can't believe I have to explain this.
The UK is buying up ventilators that could have been sold elsewhere.

Those ventilators are not the ones in the Strategic National Stockpile, which cannot be sold overseas.

I can't believe I have to explain this.

Yes, I'm not willing to say the government does more than send money. If something isn't nationalized, they're just sending money to a private interest in the hopes that their contract is fulfilled.
Yes, I'm sure that's what the government contracts say. "We'll send you XXX GBP, please help, you do whatever you want". No regulation, no franchise stipulations, etc.

This is a ludicrously simplistic understanding.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Right. So your contention is that... a single state didn't bid as much as the UK, and therefore all 50 states bidding against eachother in aggregate cannot cause more impact than the UK?
Literally you are running into my argument the wrong way. I'm saying not to separate the UK from the aggregate. The whole point is that a massive shortage is caused by a global aggregate.

That doesn't answer the question. The US did not need to import ventilators. It was not competing with the UK to get ventilators into the country. So how did the UK's order cause the US to be unable to mobilise the ventilators it already had?
It didn't need to, but nobody knew how many they needed beforehand, so everyone bought what they could until they felt safe, which is more than what they ended up needing. I can't believe I have to explain this.

Aaaaaand we're back to your refusal to recognise the government's involvement in tendering government contracts to private entities.
Yes, they're buyers, just like anyone else. It's not some huge thing.

No. You might have forgotten, but you were quite explicitly arguing against government involvement in the process. And then, a few posts later, it changes to... government involvement is fine now, just nebulously-defined "unelected bureaucrats" are bad. Which is utterly off-target, since the entire dispute started with you arguing against positions being held by elected representatives, not unelected officials.
No I didn't. This started with you positing that there's no way private entities could make a vast global supply network for goods and services, even though that's literally our reality.

*Facepalm*

The ventilators at a GM or Ford warehouse are available for purchase overseas. The ventilators in the Strategic National Stockpile are categorically not.
And thus when there's a massive rush for those ventilators on the market, it puts greater pressure on the reserves until they fail to meet demand, yes, this is how a shortage works.

The UK is buying up ventilators that could have been sold elsewhere.

Those ventilators are not the ones in the Strategic National Stockpile, which cannot be sold overseas.

I can't believe I have to explain this.
You just have to be able to put 2 and 2 together.

Yes, I'm sure that's what the government contracts say. "We'll send you XXX GBP, please help, you do whatever you want". No regulation, no franchise stipulations, etc.

This is a ludicrously simplistic understanding.
I'm sorry that the system isn't a bastion of golden perfection you think it is? Of course there are consequences for failing to fulfill a contract properly, but they also exist within purely private contracts, because there's nothing really unique to government contracts at the end of the day.
 

tstorm823

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Not sure how many times these newfound aggressive antidemocratic tactics need to be reported before anyone in power actually starts to take this shit seriously.
Republicans suggest election procedures should be determined by the whole elected legislature instead of by an unelected board of 6 appointed directly by party leadership... "aggressive antidemocratic tactics"... ok.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Republicans suggest election procedures should be determined by the whole elected legislature instead of by an unelected board of 6 appointed directly by party leadership... "aggressive antidemocratic tactics"... ok.
They only ever suggest that when they aren't party leadership
 

tstorm823

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They only ever suggest that when they aren't party leadership
Feel free to take that position. Wisconsin Republicans designed the board as currently exists in a time where they were effectively getting 4 votes to 2, and now that they've lost the Governor's seat, they're on the losing end. (For reference, it is 2 appointments to the governor, and 1 each to the majority and minority leaders in each house of the legislature. The governor is supposed to appoint one Republican and one Democrat, but lets be real, it's not hard to find a "Democrat" to side with the Republican appointees, or vice versa.) They previously established a poorly representative system, and now they want to undo that system because it's working against them. If you'd all like to take joy in their comeuppance, feel free. They deserve that.

The New York Times is not taking that position. They have attempted to frame it as a system that is currently functional and bipartisan (or maybe even slightly to the benefit of Republicans) because they want it to seem as though Republicans are pushing for effectively dictatorship.
 
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Hades

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Republicans suggest election procedures should be determined by the whole elected legislature instead of by an unelected board of 6 appointed directly by party leadership... "aggressive antidemocratic tactics"... ok.
Don't the Republicans draft hilariously biased electoral maps when they control the legislature? If I had plans like that I'd also prefer my my stacked legislature drew those map. Especially since more hilariously one sided maps means more stacked legislatures which means more ability to draw highly biased maps.
 
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Cheetodust

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Before Charlottesville conservatives complained that the left called everyone they disagreed with nazis. After, the defense became "well are nazis necessarily bad." I believe Nick Fuentes has been actively trying to normalise fascism as a political ideology. The right isn't subtle and they're getting less subtle. Hopefully people stop handwaving the fact that actual fascists are trying to rise to power because" both sides".
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Don't the Republicans draft hilariously biased electoral maps when they control the legislature? If I had plans like that I'd also prefer my my stacked legislature drew those map. Especially since more hilariously one sided maps means more stacked legislatures which means more ability to draw highly biased maps.
In Wisconsin specifically, the GOP rushed through legislation limiting the governor's power as soon as they found out that they didn't actually win that election:

Be interested to hear how that's not a blatantly partisan and undemocratic power grab, @tstorm823
 

tstorm823

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Don't the Republicans draft hilariously biased electoral maps when they control the legislature? If I had plans like that I'd also prefer my my stacked legislature drew those map. Especially since more hilariously one sided maps means more stacked legislatures which means more ability to draw highly biased maps.
Sometimes politicians draft hilariously biased electoral maps when they control the legislature. This is in no way restricted to the Republican Party, you are welcome to look up Maryland or Illinois if you'd like to see the Democrats do it.

Let's run with this example though. Imagine the Republican Party in a state started getting shafted by gerrymandering, so they proposed legislation that would take away the power to gerrymander. You might reasonably support that effort, or you might take the position "screw those guys, they were happy to cheat for themselves when they had the power to gerrymander", but that article from the New York Times is neither of those things, it's effectively defending the gerrymander as a necessary part of democracy so as to maximize the damage they can do to Republicans. You can't possibly support that take.
In Wisconsin specifically, the GOP rushed through legislation limiting the governor's power as soon as they found out that they didn't actually win that election:
Be interested to hear how that's not a blatantly partisan and undemocratic power grab, @tstorm823
It is. Now imagine a situation where in a few years, a Republican is elected as Governor, and the Republicans try and undo all that legislation that is now restricting their power. You might think "those laws were illegal and they should go", or you might think "it's only fair that they stay restricted, they put those restrictions in place", but what you shouldn't think is "Republicans are attacking laws crucial to the balance of powers in Wisconsin!" Which is effectively how NYT decided to cover this election board controversy.
 
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The Rogue Wolf

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Before Charlottesville conservatives complained that the left called everyone they disagreed with nazis. After, the defense became "well are nazis necessarily bad." I believe Nick Fuentes has been actively trying to normalise fascism as a political ideology. The right isn't subtle and they're getting less subtle. Hopefully people stop handwaving the fact that actual fascists are trying to rise to power because" both sides".
"Well, just because people brandish Nazi flags and shout 'Jews will not replace us' and wear shirts with Auschwitz references on them doesn't make them Nazis!"
"Well, then what does make someone a Nazi?"
"Being a liberal!"
 

Agema

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Glad to see there's an online info market appealing to the fears of peasant villagers from the 1800s filtered through our modern internet culture
Yes, that's the real fear: Gen Z might be dissuaded from being obedient, and so get funny ideas about doing what they want rather than what Boomers want.
 
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Fallen Soldier

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In Wisconsin specifically, the GOP rushed through legislation limiting the governor's power as soon as they found out that they didn't actually win that election:

Be interested to hear how that's not a blatantly partisan and undemocratic power grab, @tstorm823
I’m willing to bet they’ll undo those laws once Wisconsin has another GOO governor.
 

Avnger

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Yes, that's the real fear: Gen Z might be dissuaded from being obedient, and so get funny ideas about doing what they want rather than what Boomers want.
It's not like this is something they've been hiding either...

We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
 
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XsjadoBlayde

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Yes, that's the real fear: Gen Z might be dissuaded from being obedient, and so get funny ideas about doing what they want rather than what Boomers want.
Indeedums. Plus during high school/college years, due to having a lot of friends in the goth/metalhead circles, I knew a few self-described wiccans, pagans, witches etc, and they were all incredibly friendly and harmless, didn't even do drugs mostly; it was more of a stylised curiosity. Though such things demand too much financial investment to even experiment for my liking, so I was unable to satiate those curiousities, merely observe others with fascination.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I’m willing to bet they’ll undo those laws once Wisconsin has another GOO governor.
In a special emergency session as soon as they find out they're losing the legislature, naturally. Hypocrisy doesn't matter, only power matters in politics
 

TheMysteriousGX

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It is. Now imagine a situation where in a few years, a Republican is elected as Governor, and the Republicans try and undo all that legislation that is now restricting their power. You might think "those laws were illegal and they should go", or you might think "it's only fair that they stay restricted, they put those restrictions in place", but what you shouldn't think is "Republicans are attacking laws crucial to the balance of powers in Wisconsin!" Which is effectively how NYT decided to cover this election board controversy.
I'm sorry that the media is reporting on a string of blatant power grabs by the GOP the wrong way.