Funny events in anti-woke world

BrawlMan

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Oof! Jesus Christ! I always knew something was there with Specter Von Baren, but this is just icky dude. What the fuck!?
This is the same person that made excuses for Kyle Rittenhouse. A man who shot up people, taking the law into his own hands, got away with straight murder of several people, and tried to curry the favor the Proud Boys, KKK, and Neo-Nazis. Only to lose it all when he tried to suck up to BLM. Then all of sudden, his so called "friends/allies" dropped him fast, and of course, BLM wasn't having his shit and told Rittenhouse to fuck off. Nobody wants him. He tried to make a shitty video game to play victim, and no one was buying it. Speak of the murdering asshole, here's some new info.


Like a true coward, he runs after shooting people who can't defend themselves. People like Rittenhouse never take responsibility for their action, yet expect everyone else to do the same for the sake of "good", or sacrificing others peoples happiness and lives.
 
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Specter Von Baren

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You know what happens far, far, far, far, far more often than that?

Kids are sold another snake oil: the idea that because they happen to fit a certain morphological category, they therefore must also fit the gender category we associate with it.

Trans allies/ advocates telling kids what gender they must be is exceptionally rare. Much more often, the allies/advocates encourage kids to figure out their own identities, and the anti-Trans brigade are the ones telling the kids they must be a certain one.
You haven't been paying attention then.

Let me explain a little about myself and my experiences growing up. I'm autistic, I'm a sensitive sort, I was shy as a kid, I always felt like I got along better with girls than boys more often and I liked things like romance stories and wasn't very competitive. It is chillingly easy for me to see how someone online would hear stuff like that and convince me that these are traits signifying a "female gender" and that me, with my rigid, autistic way of thinking, would buy into that.

There are no cultural limits being put on this movement and any attempts to do so are shouted down and labeled transphobic. Eventually this stuff is going to pile up and if the people that are part of the community don't do something to restrain what's happening then it's all going to result in one gigantic shit storm that will rebound and hurt even more people. Do something!
 

Absent

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. It is chillingly easy for me to see how someone online would hear stuff like that and convince me that these are traits signifying a "female gender" and that me, with my rigid, autistic way of thinking, would buy into that.
Not a feminist, not a progressive, not someone with a bit of scientific background, because gender studies are precisely all about deconstructing (based on observations) how these traits illegitimately "gendered" by cultural beliefs, and have nothing inherently "male" or "female" to them.

The people who fight for trans rights are also the ones who denounce the sexual essentialism of gendered traits and values.
 

Buyetyen

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It is chillingly easy for me to see how someone online would hear stuff like that and convince me that these are traits signifying a "female gender" and that me, with my rigid, autistic way of thinking, would buy into that.
So because you're paranoid and don't understand how gender studies works, your solution is to punish all trans people and erase their identities.

Spoken like a true fascist.
 

tstorm823

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The people who fight for trans rights are also the ones who denounce the sexual essentialism of gendered traits and values.
That has not been the case for a few years now. I also am old enough to remember when gender was a social construct. We have reached the point where many at the leading edge of the transgender movement are opposed to the suggestion that gender is a social construct somewhat derivative of sex. Depending on who you talk to, you're going to get "sex is also a social construct" or "gender is an innate, immutable characteristic in your brain". Sometimes both.

Going back to your post on the last page, you reference "sexual self-determination". I'm realizing as I type, that could also be terminology for consent, so if that was your intended meaning disregard the rest of this. If, however, you mean people's right to determine their sexuality or gender expression for themselves, there is almost nobody that believes in that. The suggestion that people choose their own behavior is mocked and derided, sometimes even in the general sense of free will, but specifically in the subject of sexuality any concept of actual self-determination is treated like a slur. Any fight for people to live the way they choose has been thoroughly usurped by the "oh, you think I choose to be like this!?" crowd. The current concept of transgenderism is not about how people want or choose to live, it's about how people are innately, and any suggestion otherwise is allegedly genocide.
 

Cheetodust

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Eventually this stuff is going to pile up and if the people that are part of the community don't do something to restrain what's happening then it's all going to result in one gigantic shit storm that will rebound and hurt even more people. Do something!
Don't fucking pretend that you give a single solitary shit about what happens to the trans community. Sight unseen, with basically no information on the shooter you were willingto misgender them. So don't pretend that you're just worried that "sometimes it goes to far" your gut instinct is to default to a trans person's assigned gender.
 

Thaluikhain

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Don't fucking pretend that you give a single solitary shit about what happens to the trans community. Sight unseen, with basically no information on the shooter you were willingto misgender them. So don't pretend that you're just worried that "sometimes it goes to far" your gut instinct is to default to a trans person's assigned gender.
Not to mention, transphobia or mass shootings also are big problems that are hurting people. Only in the real world. But no, trans people are...existing? Yeah, that's a real problem.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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There are no cultural limits being put on this movement and any attempts to do so are shouted down and labeled transphobic. Eventually this stuff is going to pile up and if the people that are part of the community don't do something to restrain what's happening then it's all going to result in one gigantic shit storm that will rebound and hurt even more people. Do something!
You jumped down the slippery slope of "slippery slope" arguments. "If we don't stop this now then it'll destroy everything in some nebulous way I can't define!"
 

Baffle

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Let me explain a little about myself and my experiences growing up. I'm autistic, I'm a sensitive sort, I was shy as a kid, I always felt like I got along better with girls than boys more often and I liked things like romance stories and wasn't very competitive. It is chillingly easy for me to see how someone online would hear stuff like that and convince me that these are traits signifying a "female gender" and that me, with my rigid, autistic way of thinking, would buy into that.
To be uncharacteristically open here, I'm plausibly autistic* and at no point has anyone ever suggested I might be trans, confused about gender or any such thing. Quite a few people have suggested I might be a teeny tiny bit autistic though. Mostly because I'd annoyed them I think.

*Absolutely not diagnosed as such or even sought such a thing, I just tick most of the boxes on the NHS list. I don't know if seeking such diagnoses changes things at my age? Most of my lifestyle is built around keeping things tight and small, and as long as we don't need to change that we don't need to worry about it (y).
 

Silvanus

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You haven't been paying attention then.

Let me explain a little about myself and my experiences growing up. I'm autistic, I'm a sensitive sort, I was shy as a kid, I always felt like I got along better with girls than boys more often and I liked things like romance stories and wasn't very competitive. It is chillingly easy for me to see how someone online would hear stuff like that and convince me that these are traits signifying a "female gender" and that me, with my rigid, autistic way of thinking, would buy into that.
OK, so you didn't actually experience anything like it, and your evidence that it's commonplace is that you can easily imagine it?

Do you see the problem here?

There are no cultural limits being put on this movement and any attempts to do so are shouted down and labeled transphobic. Eventually this stuff is going to pile up and if the people that are part of the community don't do something to restrain what's happening then it's all going to result in one gigantic shit storm that will rebound and hurt even more people. Do something!
Not a single thing you've said actually provides evidence that it's happening to any great degree. "This stuff is going to pile up"-- what stuff? Stuff that you find easy to imagine happening, but which isn't actually happening in reality?

That's the basis on which you want to accuse people of serious child abuse-- The fact you can imagine it happening easily? Fuck that.
 

Absent

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I also am old enough to remember when gender was a social construct.
It's not a thing that ceases to be. Nobody outside ultraconservative groups claims that women are inherently better at dishwashing or worse at driving than men, or spontaneously prefer pink to blue. The cultural construction of "manly" and "womanly" behaviors and aptitude is too well documented, in its processes, relativity and outcomes.

The latest development is only that we used to contrast gender (the cultural attribution of "feminity" and "masculinity" to traits, behaviors, activities, etc) with biological sex, assuming that the latter was a simple binary thing. We recently found out that biological sex itself is a mess, that it's determined by a lot of physical/chemical components that can be much more contradictory than our simple idea of clear-cut determination by either XX or XY sexual chromosome pairs. Depending on your sensitivity, the implications are hilarious, or terrifying, or beautiful, or outrageous, but anyway there we are. And it's a completely separate matter than the question of cultural gender (apart from the aspect of "what do cultures do with that", which is always "paint their local idea of gender over it").

So yes, we found out that biological sex, itself, was also a social construct, in the sense that it was medically categorized as binary, and medically classified on "obvious" physical traits (with its even physical inbetween cynically denied through surgery, in order to preserve our imagned dychotomy). There is a biological continuum that medecine has no choice but taking in account from now on. We can't unlearn what we discover about cultures and about bodies.

But the super embarrassing thing is that, for ages, the concerned people "knew". And were mocked. Now that we know that there is something more complex than we believed, underneath sexual idenities, and that we were unfairly denying this in front of people who "felt" it because it was their own bodies, inhabited by themselves, we learnt to be extra careful and to fucking listen to what people say about themselves. It took us some time.

So yes, self-determination is important. There are two different layers at stake. And nothing matters mote than what people feel about themselves (especially as, fucking hell, why should OTHERS care, what do OTHERS have to lose, in comparison to the person who has to live with their own body). So people can feel like they belong to the other sex, and it should be investigated as a serious claim, with the person's own wellbeing as a priority. Other people feel like they belong to the other gender, and heck, why not, it's their life. Other people belong to their assigned sex and gender, yet feel sexually and/or emotionally attracted to the same sex and gender, and again, we have nothing to say against it, zero legitimity in ruiining their lives on the ground that they are counter-intuitive to us, or contradict whatever archeological table's diktats.

It is early. We are living in societies, within a species, which self-awareness and self-understanding is in perpetual progress. We adapt slowly to what we realise about ourselves. So of course, jerks will deride, invisibilize, destroy transsexuals, just like they did to homosexuals, just like they did to so-called "mixed-race" people, or to "inferior races" behaving as humans, or to women and men transgressing the lines of gender traits/activities/attitudes assignations. Jerks are jerks. Society outgrows them. Ridicule gets replaced by the ridicule of finding something ridicule. It doesn't happen overnight. It doesn't happen evenly. It happens. And nowadays, ladies can have short hair and wear trousers without being demonized. And -in many countries- men can fall in love with men without the crowd to point at them and laugh. Black skinned people and white skinned people can marry without being stoned to death for "betrayal". Transgenderism is going the same route for the same reason.

Just not at the same speed everywhere.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I know I shouldn't give trolls attention, but this is just fucking ridiculous.
I get that hypocrisy doesn't count for much, but conservative calls for gun control are getting a decent amount of pushback from the slightly less crazy branches of the 2A crowd. Small percentage change that it convinces a chunk of people that Tucker et all are just grifting and don't actually care about their rights
 
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Ag3ma

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You jumped down the slippery slope of "slippery slope" arguments. "If we don't stop this now then it'll destroy everything in some nebulous way I can't define!"
It's not just that, but it's the same thing we keep hearing, and it's almost never true.

Society didn't collapse from female emancipation, and it didn't collapse when homosexuality was legalised, and it didn't collapse when black people got the vote, and it didn't collapse when sex education got taught in schools, and it hasn't collapsed with immigration.

Society is, generally, incredibly resilient and adaptable.
 
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The Rogue Wolf

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It's not a thing that ceases to be. Nobody outside ultraconservative groups claims that women are inherently better at dishwashing or worse at driving than men, or spontaneously prefer pink to blue.
Just one hundred years ago that in the United States, pink was considered to be a "masculine" color suitable for boys (as it was close to red), and (light) blue was assigned to girls. Anyone who wants to complain about kids wearing "non-traditional colors" isn't appealing to tradition; they're just drawing the line at what they're comfortable with and calling that "normal".


I know I shouldn't give trolls attention, but this is just fucking ridiculous.
Republicans have alternately accused liberals of wanting to ban guns because they're "scary" and plotting to gun down conservatives. Don't expect anything logical or consistent; they just say whatever scares and riles up the base.

It's not just that, but it's the same thing we keep hearing, and it's almost never true.

Society didn't collapse from female emancipation, and it didn't collapse when homosexuality was legalised, and it didn't collapse when black people got the vote, and it didn't collapse when sex education got taught in schools, and it hasn't collapsed with immigration.

Society is, generally, incredibly resilient and adaptable.
Exactly. And what's the common thread for the fearmongers? "Give us more power to stop them or we're all doomed!"
 
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tstorm823

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So people can feel like they belong to the other sex, and it should be investigated as a serious claim, with the person's own wellbeing as a priority.
Investigating that would be considering what that actually means and why. What does it mean to feel like the opposite sex? And investigating would mean accepting more than one possible conclusion. Blind affirmation is not open to that. Hence, the question I've asked here longer than Matt Walsh has made it a thing: what is a woman? If you are to take someone physically male claiming they are actually a woman as a serious claim with their wellbeing as a priority, you have to consider that question. How can you consider a claim with no definition for a word? And that's where we're at currently, there is no accepted definition for the word, because their cannot be. There are infinite things that may subjectively cause a man to feel like a woman, many of which will contradict one another. The affirmation of one individual's personal conception of gender will always reject that of another, making it impossible to define these words without rejecting someone's claims. You cannot investigate these things, you cannot seriously consider them, unless "no, you're a man" is an option.

The other thing here, you talk of paying special attention to what people say about themselves, taking that very seriously, but my god, people say insanely stupid things about themselves all the time. People's self-perception is more often than not highly distorted, and in almost any other situation we would take the perspective of an outside observer as more objective than the person describing themselves.
 

Dalisclock

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TheMysteriousGX

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Investigating that would be considering what that actually means and why. What does it mean to feel like the opposite sex? And investigating would mean accepting more than one possible conclusion. Blind affirmation is not open to that. Hence, the question I've asked here longer than Matt Walsh has made it a thing: what is a woman? If you are to take someone physically male claiming they are actually a woman as a serious claim with their wellbeing as a priority, you have to consider that question. How can you consider a claim with no definition for a word? And that's where we're at currently, there is no accepted definition for the word, because there cannot be. There are infinite things that may subjectively cause a man to feel like a woman, many of which will contradict one another. The affirmation of one individual's personal conception of gender will always reject that of another, making it impossible to define these words without rejecting someone's claims. You cannot investigate these things, you cannot seriously consider them, unless "no, you're a man" is an option.
The reason it's a bullshit question when used arbitrarily by outsiders is that you cannot define "woman" in a way that excludes all trans women and includes all cis women. Queue all the butch women getting harassed by morons for not being "real" women, for starters, with people in power arbitrarily defining "women" to force conformity
The other thing here, you talk of paying special attention to what people say about themselves, taking that very seriously, but my god, people say insanely stupid things about themselves all the time. People's self-perception is more often than not highly distorted, and in almost any other situation we would take the perspective of an outside observer as more objective than the person describing themselves.
And they say conservatives aren't funny.