Funny events in anti-woke world

[Gergar12]

Carrot and stick approaches require you to understand what you incentivize. The US deported me, therefore I'm a terrorist now isn't a rational reaction. Terrorists overseas aren't a product of lack of US immigration. If you encouraged immigration specifically for the purpose of monitoring terrorists, you incentivize terrorism, provided it is desirable to be in the US...

Again, it's an extreme reaction and an example, but generally, my point I am trying to get across is that immigration is a net boon to societies for the economic argument. For the foreign policy aspect, even deporting bad immigrants can lead to blowback, and has led to blowback. It can even be small. Voting for an anti-US candidate in the election, which nationalizes the country's establishment, and makes it more anti-US, which can lead to the US losing basing rights, docking rights, trade dispute resolution, joining BRICS, etc.

When the US kicked a bunch of indians back to their country, who were mostly old, the indian media was livid. Granted, the country's leadership is highly opportunistic in terms of geopolitics, but their media spun the story, and it leads to where it is now: Indian paid trolls who spam on behalf of Russia, China, and for radical actors in the US like Fuentes and MAGA to break apart the US, again if you can' defeat the US military on the battlefield you get their country to be more divided.

I believe MAGA is organic, and Trump's support is organic, but many pro-Trump accounts, I suspect, are being influenced by Russia, India, and China to attack and divide the US beyond what many MAGA and even a radical actor like Fuentes want. And even if it wasn't, it benefits Trump, and he and the Republicans want it; it always seems like they hate candidates that want diverse immigration to the US.

Many of these malicious actors astroturfed against Harris, Clinton, and Biden. The Iranians were doing it against Trump, but that's because the mullahs' strategic thinking was poor, as Biden oftentimes was more efficient at confronting Iran on a multilateral level.

The reason for all of this is simple: the way the US assimilates immigrants is widely effective for its own power, and for it;'s economy for several reasons, even for the lowest-capability immigrants, refugees, etc. Again, I was born in a poor village in China. I later moved to a bigger but still small city, and then moved to the US. I don't consider myself that dynamic even now, but coming to the US made me a lot more dynamic.

Yes, we are a nation of laws, but how we execute each law is different. If someone killed someone and then showed remorse, vs someone who didn't, vs someone who laughed about it, all things being equal, they will likely receive different punishments.

It's also why I don't find Silvanus' arguments that convincing. The US due process system is oftentimes wonky, inconsistent, and highly biased by a whole number of factors, but the immigration judges and immigration lawyers are still human beings who have biases. My guess is they don't find uprooting people that peasant. Also, imprisonment is bad, but the US lacks the political will to do proper immigration and staffing of USCIS, judges, etc, and hates good administrative processes, which is why they have to resort to holding people vs processing them more quickly with adequate staffing. Which is why we have a social security number that is both a national ID number and, national ID account number that is proof we can't do administrative processes right.

I also don't want to keep immigrants mainly to stop them from being terrorists; it's an example like joining a gang as well. It's to stop anti-US blowback and better US power. If you commit a crime, you should go to jail, not be uprooted for most cases.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Fact remains. People were deported by the current administration, who had previously been given the right to be in the country, and who faced no due process, no trial or judicial review and no notification of a change of circumstance. They were not only deported but also imprisoned. You didn't even dispute this before; you merely justified the government's right to do it.

But you see, none of that harmed Tstorm, and therefore it's perfectly fine.

Seriously, please, realize that you're arguing with someone who does not have, and is incapable of understanding, human empathy.

 

[tstorm823]

Ah, we're at the "loooooser! nyuh nyuh!" stage of tstorm's argument script.

Fact remains. People were deported by the current administration, who had previously been given the right to be in the country, and who faced no due process, no trial or judicial review and no notification of a change of circumstance. They were not only deported but also imprisoned. You didn't even dispute this before; you merely justified the government's right to do it.

They had deportation orders against them, they were through due process, and had deportation deferred by a lax executive. The election of Donald Trump is their notification of change of circumstances already, but then also there were multiple public notices that their status was being revoked.

 

[tstorm823]

The reason for all of this is simple: the way the US assimilates immigrants is widely effective for its own power.

Yes, but that requires assimilation. On a broad level, I think we agree, immigration has been good for America. And also, on the level of the individual, the majority of individuals are good to have. But when an entire community with their own culture all come in at once, the outcome is organized crime. It was true of the Irish, it was true of the Italians, it's been true with Mexicans, it's now true with Somalis. It's true all over the world, when you move a community into somewhere that they don't feel ownership for, they tend to do their own thing, which inevitably ends with some amounts of organized crime.

 

[tstorm823]

Seriously, please, realize that you're arguing with someone who does not have, and is incapable of understanding, human empathy.

You don't know what empathy is, you see pity and hatred as empathy.

 

[Silvanus]

It's also why I don't find Silvanus' arguments that convincing. The US due process system is oftentimes wonky, inconsistent, and highly biased by a whole number of factors, but the immigration judges and immigration lawyers are still human beings who have biases. My guess is they don't find uprooting people that peasant. Also, imprisonment is bad, but the US lacks the political will to do proper immigration and staffing of USCIS, judges, etc, and hates good administrative processes, which is why they have to resort to holding people vs processing them more quickly with adequate staffing.

These people were not seen by any immigration judge and were denied access to a lawyer.

They were not merely held in processing centres. They were incarcerated in a maximum security prison-- CECOT.

 

[Silvanus]

They had deportation orders against them, they were through due process, and had deportation deferred by a lax executive. The election of Donald Trump is their notification of change of circumstances already, but then also there were multiple public notices that their status was being revoked.

Some had deportation orders which had not been made public. It is an outright lie that there were multiple public notices that their status was being revoked; in some cases the orders were published one evening and the people were seized on the following morning. Federal Court has already found this does not constitute notice and breached due process.

"The election of Donald Trump is their notification"-- you believe the election of Donald Trump should have been taken by lawful residents of the US that they must leave? That's absolutely fucking wild, but is perfectly consistent with the administration's hostility towards foreign people regardless of whether they enter legally and follow the nation's laws and rules.

Why the hell should any foreigner come to the US-- for study, tourism, work, residence-- if you believe that even if they follow every rule and commit no infraction, they should regardless expect arbitrary punishment under Trump? Or do you just think they shouldn't, and its their fault if they come at all, legally or not?

 

[Gergar12]

These people were not seen by any immigration judge and were denied access to a lawyer.

They were not merely held in processing centres. They were incarcerated in a maximum security prison-- CECOT.

I guess I was referring to all ICE activities in general. Sometimes they drag you to a ICE prisons not CECOT.

 

[tstorm823]

Some had deportation orders which had not been made public. It is an outright lie that there were multiple public notices that their status was being revoked; in some cases the orders were published one evening and the people were seized on the following morning. Federal Court has already found this does not constitute notice and breached due process.

You do like to imagine, don't you?

People removed in a day aren't on deportation orders, they are on expedited removal, which is for people being denied initial entry into the country. That's not a deportation.

People requiring notice ahead of time of change in status are on temporary protected status, and all those changes were published publicly 60 days in advance.

Neither of these groups are "lawful residents".

 

[Agema]

But when an entire community with their own culture all come in at once, the outcome is organized crime.

No, the problem is poverty and lack of opportunity. In practice, mass migration has occurred many times without ending in crime.

Poverty always tends to drive crime. Many migrants were poor in their own country, and they often had to leave behind the little they had as well. Lack of opportunity can reflect many things. They arrive and find barriers to their success - these can be things like language, education and so on, but I'd suggest a huge one is discrimination. Discrimination is particularly toxic and may contribute to criminality because migrants will find it harder to see the people they are joining as their own.

The other thing I would question is whether large scale migration causes organised crime, or that migrants "take over" organised crime. By which I mean, they become disproportionately represented in the sector of the population that most tends to criminality. The total volume of crime doesn't necessarily change that much, just which demographics are doing it.

 

[Silvanus]

You do like to imagine, don't you?

People removed in a day aren't on deportation orders, they are on expedited removal, which is for people being denied initial entry into the country. That's not a deportation.

No, this is again not true. Expedited removal applies to those who have not been admitted/paroled, and are inadmissable. These people were expressly admitted by the US.

They were deported under the Alien Enemies Act of 1798. Obviously the act does not concern expedited removal, as it predates it by 198 years.

You do like to cook up imaginary justifications, don't you? This isn't even the approach the administration itself took.

People requiring notice ahead of time of change in status are on temporary protected status, and all those changes were published publicly 60 days in advance.

Neither of these groups are "lawful residents".

Again, untrue: there is no legal reason only those with TPS would require notice of a change of status (i mean, that would be utterly insane-- you're essentially stating that all other legal residents can be deported without notice or reason). If someone is present legally, their status cannot be changed and then they be deported overnight.

Federal Court already ruled on this. The US government didn't even dispute this principle.

 

[tstorm823]

...but I'd suggest a huge one is discrimination. Discrimination is particularly toxic and may contribute to criminality because migrants will find it harder to see the people they are joining as their own.

I would not suggest that. "It's your fault that we're committing crimes" is exceptionally toxic. It's an idea that encourages more crimes, which in turn justifies the discrimination.

No, the problem is poverty and lack of opportunity. In practice, mass migration has occurred many times without ending in crime.

When and where?

They were deported under the Alien Enemies Act of 1798.

Oh, so a perfectly legally justified action with specific requirements and zero potential to slippery slope.

(i mean, that would be utterly insane-- you're essentially stating that all other legal residents can be deported without notice or reason)

No, that requires deportation orders. Even the people sent to CECOT under the Alien Enemies Act were either still detained at the border attempting to enter or had deportation orders standing because Venezuela was still marked for temporary protected status, so they weren't allowed to be deported there yet. You really don't seem to appreciate how absolutely they've followed the law. Even when judges make up unwritten requirements entirely out of thin air, the administration is following those requirements while challenging them in court.

 

[Silvanus]

Oh, so a perfectly legally justified action with specific requirements and zero potential to slippery slope.

An Act with specific requirements that were not met-- as once again found by federal court.

No, that requires deportation orders. Even the people sent to CECOT under the Alien Enemies Act were either still detained at the border attempting to enter or had deportation orders standing because Venezuela was still marked for temporary protected status, so they weren't allowed to be deported there yet.

Deportation orders that weren't published until the night before, rendering judicial review and notice-- both legal rights-- impossible. So they could not have possibly known. They had arrived legally, committed no crime, had no reason to think the gov had arbitrarily changed its whim.

Venezuela still had TPS status at the time.

You really don't seem to appreciate how absolutely they've followed the law. Even when judges make up unwritten requirements entirely out of thin air, the administration is following those requirements while challenging them in court.

The rules on notice, judicial review, the limitations of the AEA, and the constitutional protections against arbitrary punishment, are well documented and publicly available. Nothing made up about them, and federal judges repeatedly found they had been breached. And they had-- in the most brazen ways.

You are justifying seizing people who followed every legal rule, arriving and entering through the correct channels, and sending them to face torture and imprisonment with no ability to challenge or know its coming.

 

[tstorm823]

Deportation orders that weren't published until the night before...

You really don't understand how any of this works...

You are justifying seizing people who followed every legal rule, arriving and entering through the correct channels, and sending them to face torture and imprisonment with no ability to challenge or know its coming.

The only people this description applies to are people who were going to be denied entry regardless. They were going to spend that time imprisoned regardless, all that changed is where.

You rile yourself up with this imaginary world where the gestapo are torturing lovely perfect people just for the hell of it, you are blind to the truth.

 

[Silvanus]

You really don't understand how any of this works...

You say this, and then you repeatedly introduce irrelevant criteria, repeat falsehoods about the chain of events, and contradict federal courts without a shred of evidence.

The only people this description applies to are people who were going to be denied entry regardless. They were going to spend that time imprisoned regardless, all that changed is where.

Once again, a fair chunk of these people were given express legal permission to be there. If you believe that people who legally follow the rules, and commit no infractions, should nonetheless expect to be imprisoned, just say that.

And the 'where' matters quite a lot: an El Salvadoran torture facility, where people are denied access to clean water or food, beaten hourly, sleep-deprived etc-- where the staff said "welcome to hell, you'll never see the light of day again"-- is quite a notable spot. And that's where your administration paid to have them put.

You rile yourself up with this imaginary world where the gestapo are torturing lovely perfect people just for the hell of it, you are blind to the truth.

You pacify yourself with this imaginary world in which only horrible people are targeted by the state. Though it demonstrably happened to people who broke no laws and entered legally. You are blind to the truth.

 

[tstorm823]

You pacify yourself with this imaginary world in which only horrible people are targeted by the state. Though it demonstrably happened to people who broke no laws and entered legally. You are blind to the truth.

Ok, name one. Name one single individual who was granted residency in the US, committed no crimes, did not have a standing deportation order, and was taken away overnight.

 

[Silvanus]

Ok, name one. Name one single individual who was granted residency in the US, committed no crimes, did not have a standing deportation order, and was taken away overnight.

The names are published here.

The investigation showing no criminal record in most cases is described here.

The subsequent review showing 50+ were not only not criminals, but had not breached immigration rules at all, is here.

The fact these were carried out in some cases overnight, without notice given, is described in federal court records.

And the AEA doesn't even rely on active deportations-- active orders played no role even in the administration's own arguments. You can seek out orders for all these people if you like, but even the admin hasn't claimed it has them.

 

[Agema]

The names are published here.

The investigation showing no criminal record in most cases is described here.

The subsequent review showing 50+ were not only not criminals, but had not breached immigration rules at all, is here.

The fact these were carried out in some cases overnight, without notice given, is described in federal court records.

And the AEA doesn't even rely on active deportations-- active orders played no role even in the administration's own arguments. You can seek out orders for all these people if you like, but even the admin hasn't claimed it has them.

To be fair, I can tolerate a certain degree of detaining people who should not be deported by accident by way of bureacratic error or so on. What I don't tolerate is flouting the law, bundling them straight out of the country to Honduran jails, and openly smirking about it. But as far as the US government is concerned, the cruelty and brutality is part of the point, as a deterrent to others contemplating migration and satisfying the bloodlust of Republican voters.

Voters like Tstorm. He doesn't give a damn. The aim is to purge foreigners, by hook or by crook. If that means the manifest unfairness of abruptly stripping their residency one day and throwing them out the next, or expelling thousands who shouldn't have been, it's all fine.

 

[tstorm823]

The subsequent review showing 50+ were not only not criminals, but had not breached immigration rules at all, is here.

50 people who were never granted residency in the US, the legal equivalent of being denied entry at the border.

Nobody is the person you've described, not a single one.

 

[Silvanus]

50 people who were never granted residency in the US, the legal equivalent of being denied entry at the border.

Nobody is the person you've described, not a single one.

"Broke no laws and enterred legally" =/= "Granted residency".

Not only residents have the right to be in the country.

1x temp visa holder;
4x refugees;
24x paroled into the US.

Are you suggesting that unless someone is a resident, they should expect (exceptionally harsh) punishment, even if they are there with legal permission and broke no rules?

To be fair, I can tolerate a certain degree of detaining people who should not be deported by accident by way of bureacratic error or so on. What I don't tolerate is flouting the law, bundling them straight out of the country to Honduran jails, and openly smirking about it. But as far as the US government is concerned, the cruelty and brutality is part of the point, as a deterrent to others contemplating migration and satisfying the bloodlust of Republican voters.

Aye, this is the crux. I can tolerate mistakes. But this was not a mistake: a transparently idiotic rationale was cooked up (gang members! No trial necessary!), and strenuous efforts were made to evade the law. Then they weren't merely deported but rushed ASAP to extremely severe punishment. And expressly denied their legal right to challenge.