Funny Events of the "Woke" world

Gergar12

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Terminal Blue

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I am embarrassed to ever be a progressive or soc dem.
Why?

You live in a country which openly celebrates its colonial history and has seen deliberate effort to erase indigenous people from its culture (and ultimately from existence). Did you think changing that was going to be smooth or easy? Would you rather that white Americans tried to acknowledge this element of their history in bad or self serving ways, or just never acknowledged it at all?

The point of that article is very obvious. It's that land acknowledgements are a starting point, not the end point, and that more needs to be done.
 

Phoenixmgs

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If you provided multiple sources, I'd address them individually. I would not (and have not) dismissed multiple different sources on the basis of a flaw in one, which is what you're attempting here.

Most of the time what you provide is some lightweight YouTube video of one of about three specific public figures you're currently obsessed with. Which is not a (lol) "quality study".
I addressed like 4 of your 5 links individually. Again, what more do you want? Just link the quality stuff to look at, stop wasting my time. There was far more than a flaw in one of your links. One was a metastudy that used only studies that were observational and only a few actually had control groups, which is on par with any of those ivermectin metastudies in methodology. One other study literally came to the conclusion that surgery didn't help mental health, but I just picked a single flaw... sure...

The US top vaccine expert just maybe reads the latest and best quality studies and references them in his actual discussions.

Why?

You live in a country which openly celebrates its colonial history and has seen deliberate effort to erase indigenous people from its culture (and ultimately from existence). Did you think changing that was going to be smooth or easy? Would you rather that white Americans tried to acknowledge this element of their history in bad or self serving ways, or just never acknowledged it at all?

The point of that article is very obvious. It's that land acknowledgements are a starting point, not the end point, and that more needs to be done.
Yeah, the Cleveland Indians are now the Cleveland Guardians...

The native population was like 90% depleted before we even started colonizing (weakened and weaker populations all over the world were taken over throughout history). Someone was going to take over the land in that time of history regardless. What do you think acknowledging that is gonna do? When I went to school, it was fully acknowledged, Manifest Destiny!!!, which was never taught as an actual legitimate reason to take over the land. You actually think anyone is gonna give back any of the land after acknowledging it? It's just a virtue signal and nothing else. There's so many bad things that happened in history that are just unfixable.
 

Gergar12

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Why?

You live in a country which openly celebrates its colonial history and has seen deliberate effort to erase indigenous people from its culture (and ultimately from existence). Did you think changing that was going to be smooth or easy? Would you rather that white Americans tried to acknowledge this element of their history in bad or self serving ways, or just never acknowledged it at all?

The point of that article is very obvious. It's that land acknowledgements are a starting point, not the end point, and that more needs to be done.
Native Americans are being cynically used by progressives to be elected. It's shameful. It's hollow words by people who likely won't be elected ever in a higher office due to their polarizing mannerisms, and social division gifting. It's like me saying I want to build a Dyson sphere. I can't even assemble a solar panel, AOC has never been elected to the senate let alone appointed to the executive branch, let alone be a president.

A similar thing would be every time I eat meat I say please forgive me cows for I will sin, and I stand on carbon emissions meant for future generations.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Native Americans are being cynically used by progressives to be elected. It's shameful. It's hollow words by people who likely won't be elected ever in a higher office due to their polarizing mannerisms, and social division gifting. It's like me saying I want to build a Dyson sphere. I can't even assemble a solar panel, AOC has never been elected to the senate let alone appointed to the executive branch, let alone be a president.

A similar thing would be every time I eat meat I say please forgive me cows for I will sin, and I stand on carbon emissions meant for future generations.
Wait, so this is about these 'land acknowledgment' things? I mean its cringy, especially saying what land your people are traditionally from on a phone call, but really the worst that article has to say about it sounds pretty benign, other then the cringe. I thought this was going to be some disagreement with the Oglala Sioux and the Cheyenne River Sioux finally buying the land around the battle of Wounded Knee.
 

Trunkage

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Yeah, the Cleveland Indians are now the Cleveland Guardians...

The native population was like 90% depleted before we even started colonizing (weakened and weaker populations all over the world were taken over throughout history). Someone was going to take over the land in that time of history regardless. What do you think acknowledging that is gonna do? When I went to school, it was fully acknowledged, Manifest Destiny!!!, which was never taught as an actual legitimate reason to take over the land. You actually think anyone is gonna give back any of the land after acknowledging it? It's just a virtue signal and nothing else. There's so many bad things that happened in history that are just unfixable.
I've got a better question. What do you think acknowledgements are going to do?

If nothing will happen from them, why would they be a concern?
 

Phoenixmgs

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I've got a better question. What do you think acknowledgements are going to do?

If nothing will happen from them, why would they be a concern?
Like I said it's just a pointless virtue signal that makes people think they're better than others much like putting a Ukraine flag as you profile pic. I never claimed anything else.
 

Trunkage

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Like I said it's just a pointless virtue signal that makes people think they're better than others much like putting a Ukraine flag as you profile pic. I never claimed anything else.
So what happens when you dont do acknowledgements?

Edit: Also, I want to be clear here. You have not stated that having acknowledgements hurt you in any shape or form
 
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Gergar12

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Wait, so this is about these 'land acknowledgment' things? I mean its cringy, especially saying what land your people are traditionally from on a phone call, but really the worst that article has to say about it sounds pretty benign, other then the cringe. I thought this was going to be some disagreement with the Oglala Sioux and the Cheyenne River Sioux finally buying the land around the battle of Wounded Knee.
Wait, so this is about these 'land acknowledgment' things? I mean its cringy, especially saying what land your people are traditionally from on a phone call, but really the worst that article has to say about it sounds pretty benign, other then the cringe. I thought this was going to be some disagreement with the Oglala Sioux and the Cheyenne River Sioux finally buying the land around the battle of Wounded Knee.
You do realize what this is right? It's a form of I will say X to avoid implementing Y. I will say I support you, but when it comes to the complex relationship forming, and not eating the movement alive with infighting, and doing power moves in congress. They would instead rather do pointless social issue virtue signaling. In my opinion, the greatest con of the American elites was accepting people into the elite that were not white.

Instead of saying expanding Ivy League admissions to more people which would raise all boats in a rising tide they instead accept some African Americans at the cost of poor whites, and poor Asians and keep legacy old money coming back to the college. Trust fund brats who have done nothing to deserve their money other than pure luck get to luck in.

Instead of enacting widespread or even middle-class enabling welfare programs like medicare for all they mean to test it to divide and conqueror the lower class vs the middle class.

Instead of expanding the number of doctors in residency for medicare, they keep healthcare expensive so that if you are middle-class or even upper-middle-class cancer will force you into bankruptcy.

I have seen the tactics of Neoliberals and their academic allies. They will do stupid shit like count houses as assets, and say hey 8% of Americans are millionaires says the neoliberal when in reality if you subtract houses from assets, only 1 percent have assets over one million not counting their houses.

All the wealthy and elites do is divide, obstruct, and obfuscate.

A real progressive who is serious about destroying the elite would target the business leaders, and DC creatures by forcing everyone else against them. However, I understand why most people think this is risky. For one we are in the imperial core, Americans even homeless ones aren't the worst off, tell that to kids in Ukraine, Yemen, Syria, Afganistan, etc.
 

Terminal Blue

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Native Americans are being cynically used by progressives to be elected.
Compared to all the other stuff inflicted on them over the past few centuries, that barely seems significant.

A similar thing would be every time I eat meat I say please forgive me cows for I will sin, and I stand on carbon emissions meant for future generations.
I mean, if you said that publicly and visibly and people had to hear you say it, it would still raise awareness of the problem.

How often do you think CNN makes any effort to represent the perspective of indigenous people? Would they be bothering if land acknowledgements hadn't become a thing?

Who cares about elections. Progressives never get elected, and the system is rigged to ensure that they won't. Every progressive victory of the past century, of which there are many, has been won through activism and changes in societal attitudes, not through the political system. Waiting for the political system to fix your problems is a thousand times more useless and cringe than "virtue signalling".
 
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Phoenixmgs

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So what happens when you dont do acknowledgements?

Edit: Also, I want to be clear here. You have not stated that having acknowledgements hurt you in any shape or form
They don't and never implied they did. They are just one of many things that reveal your character to me. When your words don't match your actions, that's hypocrisy. Don't write checks with your mouth that your ass can't cash.
 

Gergar12

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Compared to all the other stuff inflicted on them over the past few centuries, that barely seems significant.



I mean, if you said that publicly and visibly and people had to hear you say it, it would still raise awareness of the problem.

How often do you think CNN makes any effort to represent the perspective of indigenous people? Would they be bothering if land acknowledgements hadn't become a thing?

Who cares about elections. Progressives never get elected, and the system is rigged to ensure that they won't. Every progressive victory of the past century, of which there are many, has been won through activism and changes in societal attitudes, not through the political system. Waiting for the political system to fix your problems is a thousand times more useless and cringe than "virtue signalling".
FDR, LBJ, and JFK disagree with you.
 

Silvanus

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I addressed like 4 of your 5 links individually.
Lol. You threw out the "no controls/administrative data" limitation from the metastudy and that was it.

The US top vaccine expert just maybe reads the latest and best quality studies and references them in his actual discussions.
Top quality excuse for getting talking points exclusively from lite media, but it still resulted in you being unaware your own "top expert" doesn't agree with you on fundamental approaches to the pandemic.
 

Silvanus

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Who cares about elections. Progressives never get elected, and the system is rigged to ensure that they won't. Every progressive victory of the past century, of which there are many, has been won through activism and changes in societal attitudes, not through the political system. Waiting for the political system to fix your problems is a thousand times more useless and cringe than "virtue signalling".
Activism and societal attitudes have zero impact on national policy unless elected representatives are in place that is at least receptive to placing them into legislation.

And on that front, yes, there's a massive difference between the two main options Americans (and Brits) have. One is (by-and-large) milquetoast centrist/corporatist, but can be compelled under certain circumstances to implement progressive policies. The order is virulently hostile and cannot.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Lol. You threw out the "no controls/administrative data" limitation from the metastudy and that was it.



Top quality excuse for getting talking points exclusively from lite media, but it still resulted in you being unaware your own "top expert" doesn't agree with you on fundamental approaches to the pandemic.
Went over 4 of the links right here...
Because you guys give me shit studies that don't even say what you claim they do half the time as at least one of the studies you just cited doesn't even say what you think it says. You're just googling and copy/pasting all the studies that you can find with positive results and barely even reading them. Just looking at your 1st 3 links, the 1st one isn't strong as I already showed, the 2nd one has no control group (yes, if you give someone a cookie, they will be more satisfied than if you didn't, what's that supposed to prove?), and the 3rd one literally says the surgery had no significant impact (Analysis of the psychosocial variables showed no significant differences between pre- and postoperative assessments).

Why don't you actually give me the good fucking studies instead of all the bullshit? If I gave you a meta-analysis showing ivermectin worked for covid, wouldn't you say the same thing to me that I'm saying to you about the 1st link you gave me on that flawed meta-analysis? I feel like I'm Gene Hackman from Class Action here. It's not on me to do your research. Surely, if this is settled science like you claim, you wouldn't be giving me these very small, bad studies, would you?

And the one from 2021 is the one that's already been mentioned quite a bit and looks like it could be a solid study in favor of gender surgery because it's quite large and has a control group to a degree. But again, it's just one study and the Swedish study was corrected because of poor methods. This is far far far far from settled science it's not even funny.
You cited no sources of him saying that (and I also asked for within the last year).
 

Trunkage

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They don't and never implied they did. They are just one of many things that reveal your character to me. When your words don't match your actions, that's hypocrisy. Don't write checks with your mouth that your ass can't cash.
Dude, like seriously

What is 'cashing cheques I cant write' here? It's an acknowledgement. What do you think actually happens?
 

Trunkage

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FDR, LBJ, and JFK disagree with you.
You.... think these guys fixed the political system?

Ot did you mean made progressive policies?

Tbese three had to be dragged kicking and screaming to do both. Eg. FDR started social security right?... but he had spent decades advocating against it. He was politically outmanuevered. But he still got his licks in and restricted it to helping mainly white people
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Wait, so this is about these 'land acknowledgment' things? I mean its cringy, especially saying what land your people are traditionally from on a phone call, but really the worst that article has to say about it sounds pretty benign, other then the cringe. I thought this was going to be some disagreement with the Oglala Sioux and the Cheyenne River Sioux finally buying the land around the battle of Wounded Knee.
I think it's the hollowness of it all.

The image of

"We stand on stolen land that we wrongfully took from other people, but we're not going to do a fucking thing to actually make up the wrongs of our ancestors or anything"

It's also stupid because in the past everyone took land from everyone else at some point seemingly too. I'm sure the Italians are pissed at all the people who stole part sof their Roman Empire and people before that upset that the Romans invaded them. Or some clans who stole one another's land in the past.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Here's something worrying


Combat misinformation by letting people edit others tweets if they'd been given a verified twitter badge lol...... this wouldn't go badly or be abused at all right lol?
 
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Terminal Blue

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FDR, LBJ, and JFK disagree with you.
I mean, I'll give you at least one of those.

I was being a little hyperbolic. I don't think the political system plays absolutely no role in social change. It certainly plays a very immediate role in the lives of people affected by government policy, what I mean is that focusing on the political system as the only arena of politics is recipe for depression.

Progressive politics isn't about doing whatever it takes to get into power and then forcing through a bunch of policies once you have control of the political system. For any form of societal progress to stick you need popular support, and that support doesn't come from inside the political system.

The turning point on any progressive issue isn't when a handful of progressive politicians start pushing for it, it's when supporting that reform becomes such an electoral asset that politicians who don't really care (which is basically all of them) feel obligated to feign support. As cringe as it may be to watch incredibly wealthy neoliberal democrats pretend to care about police violence against black communities or indigenous land rights, it's still better than them not talking about these things.

Activism and societal attitudes have zero impact on national policy unless elected representatives are in place that is at least receptive to placing them into legislation.
Sure, but the politicians who actually have the ability to make these things policy aren't receptive because they actually care, they're receptive because they think it will boost their chances of getting elected. Until that point, they don't care.

The political system isn't a place where competing ideological principles are engaged in open debate. At its core it's a stupid game rich people play with each other out of boredom and egotism. Winning as a progressive is about getting to the point where being receptive to progressive issues becomes conducive to winning the game.
 
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