Funny Events of the "Woke" world

Gergar12

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
3,921
864
118
Country
United States
People are pissy because the "music" in question is a fascist meme celebrating the torture and murder of tens of thousands of people.

I don't get your hatred of Corbyn. It's weird, arbitrary and seems to be based on a bunch of random bullshit that is either demonstrably false or speculation, but it doesn't bother me at all. Living in the UK you get used to being involuntarily exposed to weird, incoherent right wing opinions. What bothers me is the pretend-ironic celebration of regime that put live rats in people's bodily orifices.

It's not enough to simply say you're not a fascist so it doesn't count when you do it. If you normalize fascist propaganda, you're giving material support to that agenda, and thus it ceases to functionally matter what you think your politics are.
My hatred of him stems from the fact that I don't want avenues of US trade to be stopped by a combined Chinese-Russian fleet either here or perhaps in the future in space. NATO is the shield that stops that in the medium term, and somewhat in the short term. You live in a bygone era where morality mattered, in the real world vying for power matters. The left fights for power for moralistic reasons, and the right wants power for its own sake, but the common idea is this. Power is being fought over. JC has also been shown to be very unpragmatic, he didn't oppose Brexit as strongly as he did because he hates the EU over dumb policy issues that don't affect him or his country and has treated his country better than Greece for example, he also didn't pick soft power/morality over leverage in that he wasn't willing to threaten EU residency in the UK over better trade conditions. Had he been sober-minded he would have either anti-Brexited hard or Brexited hard in the opposition against the EU hard. The fact he picked a mushy middle, the worst option shows he's either an idiot, hates the UK for self-destructive anti-imperialism reasons, or just really hates the west in general.
 
  • Like
Reactions: thestor

Terminal Blue

Elite Member
Legacy
Feb 18, 2010
3,923
1,791
118
Country
United Kingdom
My hatred of him stems from the fact that I don't want avenues of US trade to be stopped by a combined Chinese-Russian fleet either here or perhaps in the future in space.
Why would that happen though?

You live in a bygone era where morality mattered, in the real world vying for power matters.
Again, you are literally paraphrasing Mussolini, which is probably not the way to go if you're trying to defend posting fascist memes.

In what bygone era was geopolitics guided by transparent and sincere moral convictions? Pinochet was put in power with material support from the US government. CIA agents were sent into south America to train secret police in how to torture people. One particular agent used to have random people grabbed off the street and then he'd torture them to death to demonstrate the techniques. Are those representative of the values of the USA?

I think it's you who lives under the delusion that the USA is a "good" country and that US global dominance has moral value. Because if it doesn't, why does it matter?

Mussolini was wrong, and so are you. It's power that doesn't really matter. Power is a largely ineffective motivator of people. Morality can make people sacrifice their own lives or torture other human beings to death. It doesn't matter to me, on the level of pure power, whether the USA or China is global hegemon. It only matters in that the consequences of one or the other might be good or bad, and for many of us that question has a degree of complexity precisely because the historical actions of the USA are not in line with its own moral pretentions.

The left fights for power for moralistic reasons, and the right wants power for its own sake, but the common idea is this.
I don't think that's necessarily true. The right is often guided by explicit and open morality. Sometimes that morality can be so extreme that torturing people and throwing them out of helicopters becomes the morally correct action.

What I will say is generally true is that people on the right tend to empathize less with people who don't have power, for example by laughing at people who have been tortured and thrown out of helicopters.

JC has also been shown to be very unpragmatic, he didn't oppose Brexit as strongly as he did because he hates the EU over dumb policy issues that don't affect him or his country and has treated his country better than Greece for example, he also didn't pick soft power/morality over leverage in that he wasn't willing to threaten EU residency in the UK over better trade conditions.
Everyone hates the EU.

I voted remain. I have never questioned my decision to vote remain. I love to roast the gammon. But anyone who says that they like the EU in its present form either doesn't really understand it or is just dumb. It's a deeply, deeply flawed institution. It enforces the worst excesses of neoliberal capitalism onto its members. It's full of literal nazis because people keep electing them in EU elections because they hate the EU.

The reason people voted remain has nothing to do with liking the EU. It's about broader ideas of European intergration, economic self-interest and the fact that the EU serves as a political bulwalk to the kind of unchecked nationalism we've seen since Brexit. I wouldn't have voted to remain in the EU if I believed it was going to remain the same institution forever. In fact, I think it is so flawed that it will not be able to remain the same institution forever and will either collapse completely or be forced to reform.

Wanting to remain in the EU is not a pragmatic position. It requires a willingness to buy into the ideals of an institution that does not in any sense live up to those ideals.

Had he been sober-minded he would have either anti-Brexited hard or Brexited hard in the opposition against the EU hard.
Except of course, as the Euroskeptic leader of a pro-European party, he was in an impossible position either way. If he had anti-Brexited he would have been accused of betraying his own principles. If he had Brexited he would have lost the support of much of his party, and the media would have torn into him regardless because they did literally nothing else during the time he was leader.

Remaining as neutral as possible on the issue was a bad policy, but it was still the best policy.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
12,085
6,373
118
Country
United Kingdom
he also didn't pick soft power/morality over leverage in that he wasn't willing to threaten EU residency in the UK over better trade conditions.
That is picking morality over leverage.
 

Phoenixmgs

The Muse of Fate
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
9,629
830
118
w/ M'Kraan Crystal
Gender
Male
What on earth is your success criteria for a medical procedure if not the improvement of the quality of life of the patient?
And you're not waiting for the science to be done on that. Also, there's a difference between needs and wants. Wants improve quality of life but we don't subsidize those.

Well, yes. But Australia has its own past to deal with. Indigenous Australians weren't classed as human til 1967 and there was a White Australia policy until 1973. The government who opened it up was seen as what we call 'woke' now and they found some economic reasons to get Queen Elizabeth to fire him. Our current immigration policy was cited by Trump as inspiration for his wall.

But then, we also had the Conservative government here being the ones wanting to put in quarantines over Covid. Being a conservative here is completely different from the US. One Prime Minister that I absolutely hated (i.e. I think Trump an idiot who gets in over his head and doesn't think before he speaks. So, I don't hate him) was one of the biggest proponents of 'Bridging the Gap' of Indigenous Australians an education and health metrics.... which I can respect. I don't think he succeeded but I do think he tried as best he understood in this area.

I bring this up as that what I see is the result of acknowledgements. It's doing what you can, when you can, as best you can... but its gotta fit in with everything else. But everything else can't drown it out either.

I don't know what the 'fix' is for Native Americans. But I do see it like climate change. Just do a little part and encourage others to join in. You can't fix it all. You CAN do something that you think is important.

And, I agree with you, don't be those performative social media attention seekers who spend 5mins at a Black Live Matter rally to get some photos for Insta and leave. Do or do not, there is no try
Outside of getting rid of policies that are still currently in place that are discriminatory and treating the natives the same as anyone else, what else can anyone do? If some land was recently taken from the native population, that could probably be given back. And, of course, don't be taking more land today. It's not like it's possible to hand over like Sydney back to the native population for example.


But you weren't thinking of group therapy were you. You were thinking of a situation in which a therapist attempts to convince someone that they're not trans and that any negative feelings they might have about their body are wrong or misguided.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
12,085
6,373
118
Country
United Kingdom
And you're not waiting for the science to be done on that. Also, there's a difference between needs and wants. Wants improve quality of life but we don't subsidize those.
There's plenty of science on exactly that.
 

Gergar12

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
3,921
864
118
Country
United States
That is picking morality over leverage.
That was a word error. I meant he was being unpragmatic. Picking EU citizens over-leverage for his country couldn't result in the form of lower tariffs and non-tariff barriers while if he just stated give me X or I kick out EU citizens he would have gotten a better deal. Granted he's not in power, but it's what I would have done if re-entering the EU wasn't an option.
Why would that happen though?



Again, you are literally paraphrasing Mussolini, which is probably not the way to go if you're trying to defend posting fascist memes.

In what bygone era was geopolitics guided by transparent and sincere moral convictions? Pinochet was put in power with material support from the US government. CIA agents were sent into south America to train secret police in how to torture people. One particular agent used to have random people grabbed off the street and then he'd torture them to death to demonstrate the techniques. Are those representative of the values of the USA?

I think it's you who lives under the delusion that the USA is a "good" country and that US global dominance has moral value. Because if it doesn't, why does it matter?

Mussolini was wrong, and so are you. It's power that doesn't really matter. Power is a largely ineffective motivator of people. Morality can make people sacrifice their own lives or torture other human beings to death. It doesn't matter to me, on the level of pure power, whether the USA or China is global hegemon. It only matters in that the consequences of one or the other might be good or bad, and for many of us that question has a degree of complexity precisely because the historical actions of the USA are not in line with its own moral pretentions.



I don't think that's necessarily true. The right is often guided by explicit and open morality. Sometimes that morality can be so extreme that torturing people and throwing them out of helicopters becomes the morally correct action.

What I will say is generally true is that people on the right tend to empathize less with people who don't have power, for example by laughing at people who have been tortured and thrown out of helicopters.



Everyone hates the EU.

I voted remain. I have never questioned my decision to vote remain. I love to roast the gammon. But anyone who says that they like the EU in its present form either doesn't really understand it or is just dumb. It's a deeply, deeply flawed institution. It enforces the worst excesses of neoliberal capitalism onto its members. It's full of literal nazis because people keep electing them in EU elections because they hate the EU.

The reason people voted remain has nothing to do with liking the EU. It's about broader ideas of European intergration, economic self-interest and the fact that the EU serves as a political bulwalk to the kind of unchecked nationalism we've seen since Brexit. I wouldn't have voted to remain in the EU if I believed it was going to remain the same institution forever. In fact, I think it is so flawed that it will not be able to remain the same institution forever and will either collapse completely or be forced to reform.

Wanting to remain in the EU is not a pragmatic position. It requires a willingness to buy into the ideals of an institution that does not in any sense live up to those ideals.



Except of course, as the Euroskeptic leader of a pro-European party, he was in an impossible position either way. If he had anti-Brexited he would have been accused of betraying his own principles. If he had Brexited he would have lost the support of much of his party, and the media would have torn into him regardless because they did literally nothing else during the time he was leader.

Remaining as neutral as possible on the issue was a bad policy, but it was still the best policy.
Not everyone hated the EU, the ones who did likely benefited from the EU's infrastructure projects, lower tariffs on goods, more nurses, lower labor costs for nannies, etc. The ones who loved the EU got to go to France without a VISA, and enjoy being a part of a political and economic bloc.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
12,085
6,373
118
Country
United Kingdom
That was a word error. I meant he was being unpragmatic. Picking EU citizens over-leverage for his country couldn't result in the form of lower tariffs and non-tariff barriers while if he just stated give me X or I kick out EU citizens he would have gotten a better deal. Granted he's not in power, but it's what I would have done if re-entering the EU wasn't an option.
Going with the principled option at the cost of pragmatism was indeed one of Corbyn's faults. That said, I would hardly pick this as an example of that. The UK and EU were never going to come to an equitable solution by taking pot-shots and diplomatic threats.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
12,085
6,373
118
Country
United Kingdom
There's not even close to "plenty of science"
Not that you'd accept-- we've seen already that when provided with multiple studies, you'll find a drawback in one and then just handwave the rest.
 

Phoenixmgs

The Muse of Fate
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
9,629
830
118
w/ M'Kraan Crystal
Gender
Male
Not that you'd accept-- we've seen already that when provided with multiple studies, you'll find a drawback in one and then just handwave the rest.
They're not good studies. Funny how I immediately accepted the good ivermectin study when they finally did one and didn't handwave it away. About a decades worth of rather poor studies, with maybe a good one or two, to prove mental health outcomes (which are very hard to prove) is not even fucking close to "plenty of science" or "settled science". It was common scientific knowledge very very recently that obesity causes diabetes and that's not true, and that's far more basic than proving something psychological.
 

Gergar12

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
3,921
864
118
Country
United States
Why would that happen though?



Again, you are literally paraphrasing Mussolini, which is probably not the way to go if you're trying to defend posting fascist memes.

In what bygone era was geopolitics guided by transparent and sincere moral convictions? Pinochet was put in power with material support from the US government. CIA agents were sent into south America to train secret police in how to torture people. One particular agent used to have random people grabbed off the street and then he'd torture them to death to demonstrate the techniques. Are those representative of the values of the USA?

I think it's you who lives under the delusion that the USA is a "good" country and that US global dominance has moral value. Because if it doesn't, why does it matter?

Mussolini was wrong, and so are you. It's power that doesn't really matter. Power is a largely ineffective motivator of people. Morality can make people sacrifice their own lives or torture other human beings to death. It doesn't matter to me, on the level of pure power, whether the USA or China is global hegemon. It only matters in that the consequences of one or the other might be good or bad, and for many of us that question has a degree of complexity precisely because the historical actions of the USA are not in line with its own moral pretentions.



I don't think that's necessarily true. The right is often guided by explicit and open morality. Sometimes that morality can be so extreme that torturing people and throwing them out of helicopters becomes the morally correct action.

What I will say is generally true is that people on the right tend to empathize less with people who don't have power, for example by laughing at people who have been tortured and thrown out of helicopters.



Everyone hates the EU.

I voted remain. I have never questioned my decision to vote remain. I love to roast the gammon. But anyone who says that they like the EU in its present form either doesn't really understand it or is just dumb. It's a deeply, deeply flawed institution. It enforces the worst excesses of neoliberal capitalism onto its members. It's full of literal nazis because people keep electing them in EU elections because they hate the EU.

The reason people voted remain has nothing to do with liking the EU. It's about broader ideas of European intergration, economic self-interest and the fact that the EU serves as a political bulwalk to the kind of unchecked nationalism we've seen since Brexit. I wouldn't have voted to remain in the EU if I believed it was going to remain the same institution forever. In fact, I think it is so flawed that it will not be able to remain the same institution forever and will either collapse completely or be forced to reform.

Wanting to remain in the EU is not a pragmatic position. It requires a willingness to buy into the ideals of an institution that does not in any sense live up to those ideals.



Except of course, as the Euroskeptic leader of a pro-European party, he was in an impossible position either way. If he had anti-Brexited he would have been accused of betraying his own principles. If he had Brexited he would have lost the support of much of his party, and the media would have torn into him regardless because they did literally nothing else during the time he was leader.

Remaining as neutral as possible on the issue was a bad policy, but it was still the best policy.
The guy shills for Hezbollah, and Hamas. He shills for autocratic left governments.

his first answer was British Labor Leader Jeremy Corbyn. But although Corbyn shares many of Sanders’s economic views, he has expressed sympathy for authoritarian movements like Hamas and Hezbollah and authoritarian regimes like those in Cuba and Venezuela. It’s a reminder that leftists abroad may define progressivism in ways that may—or should—make American progressives uncomfortable.

 

Gergar12

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
3,921
864
118
Country
United States

Bill Burr and Hasan Minhaj are what Jon Stewart and Colbert should have been. Granted Jon Stewart and Colbert were holding Trump accountable, and Stewart has done allot for public policy, but they aren't progressive on economics.
 

Terminal Blue

Elite Member
Legacy
Feb 18, 2010
3,923
1,791
118
Country
United Kingdom
The guy shills for Hezbollah, and Hamas.
I don't think pointing out the obvious fact that peace is inherently bilateral and will never be secured without the involvement and agreement of Hezbollah and Hamas is really shilling for them.

Look, I am old enough to remember the last IRA bombing campaign in England. At the time, the thought of a lasting peace in Northern Ireland seemed completely unthinkable to much of the British population. It ceased to be unthinkable because concessions were made which made the decision to renounce violence strategically rewarding to Irish Republicans.

If the British government had simply refused to recognize Sinn Fein as legitimate because something something IRA bad, there would still be nailbombs going off in London to this day and many, many people on both sides would have died in a stupid, pointless, atrocious war.

I have never spoken to a leftist here in Britain who actually thought Hezbollah and Hamas were blameless or had never carried out acts of violence, but our own history tells us very clearly that you can't just mistreat people and expect them to behave like docile little cows. The only way to secure any lasting end to violence is to ensure the alternative is better.

authoritarian regimes like those in Cuba and Venezuela.
Turns out, when your historical involvement in a continent is installing fascist dictators who torture and murder people on a massive scale with support and assistance from your government, people start rooting for the alternative.

Cuba and Venezuela are a million, million times better than Argentina or Brazil under the US backed juntas or.. you know.. Chile under Pinochet, and noone outside the US is dumb enough to believe that US foreign policy today has any more consideration for the interests of the population of central and south America than it did then.

It’s a reminder that leftists abroad may define progressivism in ways that may—or should—make American progressives uncomfortable.
One thing that every British leftist has had to do, to one degree or another, is to come to terms with our own colonial history. That's why we notice the parallels between that history and contemporary US policy.

"Anti-Authoritarianism" doesn't mean sending soldiers or spies into people's countries and forcing them to buy your crap and sell you their resources cheap or else you'll torture them and their families. That doesn't actually make people more free. A broader ethic of anti-authoritarianism includes the idea that nations should not use military force or economic coercion to impose their will onto others at the expense of the population.
 

Gergar12

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
3,921
864
118
Country
United States
I don't think pointing out the obvious fact that peace is inherently bilateral and will never be secured without the involvement and agreement of Hezbollah and Hamas is really shilling for them.

Look, I am old enough to remember the last IRA bombing campaign in England. At the time, the thought of a lasting peace in Northern Ireland seemed completely unthinkable to much of the British population. It ceased to be unthinkable because concessions were made which made the decision to renounce violence strategically rewarding to Irish Republicans.

If the British government had simply refused to recognize Sinn Fein as legitimate because something something IRA bad, there would still be nailbombs going off in London to this day and many, many people on both sides would have died in a stupid, pointless, atrocious war.

I have never spoken to a leftist here in Britain who actually thought Hezbollah and Hamas were blameless or had never carried out acts of violence, but our own history tells us very clearly that you can't just mistreat people and expect them to behave like docile little cows. The only way to secure any lasting end to violence is to ensure the alternative is better.



Turns out, when your historical involvement in a continent is installing fascist dictators who torture and murder people on a massive scale with support and assistance from your government, people start rooting for the alternative.

Cuba and Venezuela are a million, million times better than Argentina or Brazil under the US backed juntas or.. you know.. Chile under Pinochet, and noone outside the US is dumb enough to believe that US foreign policy today has any more consideration for the interests of the population of central and south America than it did then.



One thing that every British leftist has had to do, to one degree or another, is to come to terms with our own colonial history. That's why we notice the parallels between that history and contemporary US policy.

"Anti-Authoritarianism" doesn't mean sending soldiers or spies into people's countries and forcing them to buy your crap and sell you their resources cheap or else you'll torture them and their families. That doesn't actually make people more free. A broader ethic of anti-authoritarianism includes the idea that nations should not use military force or economic coercion to impose their will onto others at the expense of the population.
Cuba and Venezuela are a million, million times better than Argentina or Brazil under the US-backed juntas. you know. Chile under Pinochet and no one outside the US is dumb enough to believe that US foreign policy today has any more consideration for the interests of the population of central and south America than it did then.

On what aggregate economic metric is Venezuela, and Cuba better than Chile, Brazil, or non-batshit economically insane Argentina? People may have hated the repression, and maybe that is better but Cuba is repressive, Venezuela is repressive you are trading western-backed right-wing repression with left-wing repression, police states, and failed economic policy. in Venezuela, they have to fight for bread, and diapers something that is taken for granted in Chile.

"contemporary US policy", and I am guessing as a leftist you're going to ignore repression from Cuba, Venezuela, China, Russia, and Iran because the enemy of my enemy is my friend logic that is prevalent in leftist hipsters circles.
 

Terminal Blue

Elite Member
Legacy
Feb 18, 2010
3,923
1,791
118
Country
United Kingdom
On what aggregate economic metric is Venezuela, and Cuba better than Chile, Brazil, or non-batshit economically insane Argentina?
Gini coefficient, for one.

But let me put it this way, would you rather live in a country where everyone is poor or live in a country where a tiny, tiny handful of people are not poor and those who are live in constant fear of being grabbed off the street and tortured to death by fascist paramilitaries or CIA agents?

People may have hated the repression, and maybe that is better but Cuba is repressive, Venezuela is repressive you are trading western-backed right-wing repression with left-wing repression, police states, and failed economic policy.
There is an order of magnitude difference in both scale and barbarism.

Think of this from my perspective for a moment. You apparently hate Jeremy Corbyn for expressing (nuanced) condolences on the event of Castro's death, but you are also defending and downplaying the actions of men who cut people's hearts out in front of their children, tortured people they grabbed off the street at random and forced people to fuck dogs.

For a self-described "realist", you seem to be having some issues facing reality.

In Venezuela, they have to fight for bread, and diapers something that is taken for granted in Chile.
In Chile, they have to fight for water because the Pinochet government sold the water rights to foreign companies.

Like, seriously though, this one is baffling. Do you believe that noone is poor in Chile? Do you believe in trickle down economics?

"contemporary US policy", and I am guessing as a leftist you're going to ignore repression from Cuba, Venezuela, China, Russia, and Iran because the enemy of my enemy is my friend logic that is prevalent in leftist hipsters circles.
Okay, watch this.

The governments of Cuba, Venezuuela, China, Russia and Iran have all engaged in political repression.

You know what that cost me, or what I had to compromise to do it. Absolutely fucking nothing.

You understand absolutely nothing about me or my politics, even less in fact than you understand about Jeremy Corbyn who you have inexplicably decided to hate regardless.

But I understand that you will unironically post fascist memes and then simp for torturers and mass-murders in a desperate attempt to avoid taking a modicum of responsibility for your own actions, and that's not a good look.
 

Phoenixmgs

The Muse of Fate
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
9,629
830
118
w/ M'Kraan Crystal
Gender
Male
We have well established that you cannot judge research properly.
You even more so, settled science to you is a bunch of psychological studies with no control groups over ~decade...

---

The Twitter mob is calling Troy Aikman sexist for using the word "dresses" LMAO. The comment section on the FB post I saw was literally everyone laughing at how stupid it was that people got upset over it.

 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
12,085
6,373
118
Country
United Kingdom
You even more so, settled science to you is a bunch of psychological studies with no control groups over ~decade...
I'd love to know how you propose to form a control group here in a manner that isn't grossly unethical.

We do have baseline data. And we have before-and-after measures. These are the closest that are available for most long term medical research. You're dismissing standard procedure.