Funny Events of the "Woke" world

[Hawki]

Quran desecration: Sweden faces diplomatic backlash – DW – 07/21/2023

Saudi Arabia has pressured Sweden to act against "disgraceful" Quran-related protests staged by an Iraqi refugee in Stockholm. The protests have triggered a diplomatic crisis between Sweden and several Islamic nations.

www.dw.com

So, usual nonsense and-

Swedish police have already filed preliminary hate speech charges against the man who burned a copy of the Quran in June and stomped on it this week. The prosecutors have yet to decide whether to formally indict him.

The Swedish government has condemned Quran burning as "Islamophobic."

Oh fuck off.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Strictly for an adventurer, a wheelchair isn't the practical solution. The cheap historical solution would be crutches or peg legs.

That would depend heavily on what you need to do as an adventurer. If your adventure takes place in a city (the kind of late-medieval/renaissance city which tends to appear in D&D settings) then a wheelchair is probably fine. If your adventure needs you to travel to mount doom and destroy the one ring, then unless your wheelchair is a modern-style design that can fold down for easy travel then yeah, probably not the best mode of transportation. But crutches or peg legs would have just as many problems in that scenario.

As point of fact, this whole discussion is about wheelchair accessible dungeons, which sums it up.

Why wouldn't dungeons necessarily be wheelchair accessible?

Like. Think about it. Let's say you're digging out an underground structure for some reason. Let's ask the most basic, obvious question about the mechanics of this process. What happens to the rock? In real life it doesn't just vanish when you hit it with a pickaxe. You need somewhere to put it. Generally, that means bringing it to the surface and dumping it somewhere. How are you doing that? If you're making a massive structure, you're going to need the ability to move rock on an industrial scale. Unless you can literally do it all by magic, that's going to mean massive numbers of labourers carrying heavy loads. It's going to mean pack animals, it's going to mean rails and minecarts and possibly even elevators. Stairs are just a needless obstacle to the process of bringing rock to the surface. Even if you can do it all by magic, why would you build stairs into this process? Adding stairs would be a stylistic choice, not a necessity.

The idea that the only reason to build structures in a way that is accessible to wheelchairs is some kind of "woke" concession to wheelchair users specifically is, frankly, some ableist bullshit. There's no reason every structure has to have stairs in it in order to function.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

That would depend heavily on what you need to do as an adventurer. If your adventure takes place in a city (the kind of late-medieval/renaissance city which tends to appear in D&D settings) then a wheelchair is probably fine. If your adventure needs you to travel to mount doom and destroy the one ring, then unless your wheelchair is a modern-style design that can fold down for easy travel then yeah, probably not the best mode of transportation. But crutches or peg legs would have just as many problems in that scenario.

I'd debate "as many problems", but the mechanically best solution would be magic. I'd also debate that it'd be perfectly easy in a city. In modern cities with modern legislation to make places accessible to the handicapped, it's still an uphill battle. My opinion is is that if a player is intentionally playing a handicapped character, unless they explicitly say otherwise, they're looking for some sort of disadvantage that alters how the game is played and how they think about things.

Why wouldn't dungeons necessarily be wheelchair accessible?

Like. Think about it. Let's say you're digging out an underground structure for some reason. Let's ask the most basic, obvious question about the mechanics of this process. What happens to the rock? In real life it doesn't just vanish when you hit it with a pickaxe. You need somewhere to put it. Generally, that means bringing it to the surface and dumping it somewhere. How are you doing that? If you're making a massive structure, you're going to need the ability to move rock on an industrial scale. Unless you can literally do it all by magic, that's going to mean massive numbers of labourers carrying heavy loads. It's going to mean pack animals, it's going to mean rails and minecarts and possibly even elevators. Stairs are just a needless obstacle to the process of bringing rock to the surface. Even if you can do it all by magic, why would you build stairs into this process? Adding stairs would be a stylistic choice, not a necessity.

The idea that the only reason to build structures in a way that is accessible to wheelchairs is some kind of "woke" concession to wheelchair users specifically is, frankly, some ableist bullshit. There's no reason every structure has to have stairs in it in order to function.

You would pull the stone out, carve out the stairs, and then fill in/seal off the arteries to move the stone. And it would be arteries, a lot of individual rooms wouldn't have ramps.

In any case you can write dungeons to be wheelchair accessible, the lich's tower is full of wheelchair ramps and elevators because the lich was wheelchair bound in life and that's when he built his tower. But if you're going for a world spanning campaign with a ton of towers, it's going to strain believability. Every mansion? Every tower? Every cave? What if you want a section where the party swims through an underwater tunnel?

Not that you can't do all this, if the party is okay with some explanation (or are okay with forgoing explanation) for every dungeon to be wheelchair accessible, then do it. I just get the idea that it doesn't make much sense.

 

[Absent]

Quran desecration: Sweden faces diplomatic backlash – DW – 07/21/2023

Saudi Arabia has pressured Sweden to act against "disgraceful" Quran-related protests staged by an Iraqi refugee in Stockholm. The protests have triggered a diplomatic crisis between Sweden and several Islamic nations.

www.dw.com

So, usual nonsense and-

Oh fuck off.

I was about to make a joke like "it's all fun and games until one of these fundamentalist maniacs go in front of an US embassy and stomp on a star wars dvd, and then IT IS ON".

But then I remembered that we've just had, in this forum, a few pages of apology for a song threatening to kill whoever burns or stomps an american flag.

So yeah. Conservatives. Worldwide.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Ah, the sweet smell of "woke" being rendered ever less meaningful by ignorance and laziness.

That's not "woke", it's communist. Communists have a reason to not like George Orwell.

It's an attack using the woke language of accusing a person of being an awful bigot as a vector of attack.


Many of the woke lot are commies wanting to undermine the west by any means.

Sorry but the woke side happily accepted the "......No USA at all" people.

Man, some people like wheels, relax my dude. Also, like, *what* universe, specifically? What setting is that book in? And why is it so fucking egregious? It's like you think it's Dark Souls difficulty options or something

Plus, like, lotta disabled people don't like when magical solutions show up to make them Not Disabled Anymore. Not every, before you bring up a story about somebody who does as a gotcha, but like...it's a thing.

EDIT: Love that we get to have this conversation again

D&D Combat Wheelchair

D&D Combat Wheelchair refers to a homebrew wheelchair for use in Dungeons & Dragons campaigns (specifically for Dungeons & Dragons 5E) in an ef

knowyourmeme.com

Please don't pull the "Disabled by choice" nonsense. I doubt in reality given the choice people would willingly choose their wheel chair unless they're extremely narcissistic.

Also isn't one of the issues many take with the combat wheelchair is that it's actually as good of not better than able bodies players offering 0 disadvantages?

Like part of D&D for some people is dealing with their characters disadvantages be it a glass cannon mage or a Barbarian who can barely hold a conversation let along persuade people of something

Isn't that sort of thing par for the course? I mean, half of every paranormal (especially YA) series has decided that crossbows are the ranged weapon of choice, seemingly forgetting that guns and other weapons exist. That doesn't seem a million miles away.

There's a long possible social explanation from this but to cut the whole thing short as possible.

Crossbows most places are legal to own. (yes even here in jolly old England) without the need for special licences etc. It's a readily accessible type of weapon and also they're I'd argue some what more visual weapons with strings moving and bolts firing and sticking in stuff.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

I'm sorry, is that justification for permanently maiming unrelated people for no goddamned reason?

I don't know, does it?

I mean I linked the videos for a guy being attacked for having an American flag at a protest.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Well, you'll never fit that on a marquee, love.

The same argument for the use of "Alt right" which gets used for:
People who are fiscally conservative but non religious.
The KKK
Anyone who ever said Anita Sarkeesian is a lair.
#JusticeforJohnnydepp supports
PUA
People who drink Black Rifle Coffe
People who won't drink Bud Light
Trump supporters
De-Santis supporters
People who think Disney shouldn't be able to act like it's own small state.
anyone who engage positively with the forbidden topic of GG here.
Far Right nut jobs.
Any supporter of the four horsemen
MGTOWs
MRAs
Anyone who believes Jussie Smollet faked being attacked,
The proud boys
Return of Kings
People who liked Jumanji Welcome to the Jungle.
People who didn't like The Last Jedi.


The big difference is with the use of woke it can be pointed out the tactics, approach and language being used down to the exact phrases being used being the same lol.

 

[Silvanus]

Anyone who ever said Anita Sarkeesian is a lair.

If Anita Sarkeesian is a lair, is she a wheelchair-accessible dungeon?

 

[McElroy]

If Anita Sarkeesian is a lair, is she a wheelchair-accessible dungeon?

The feminist lair straight out of my nightmares. They make you watch her videos in there.

 

[Kae]

I like that robot arms and magic replacement eyes in D&D and literal magic animated robots are perfectly fine, even limb replacements, nobody made a fuss when they were added in Xanathar's Guide and the Eberron books, but wheelchair accessibility which can be done in real life is somehow too much, it has gone too far, it's not realistic, clearly in fantasy they would just leave disabled people to die or something.

I do mean all offense, but this discussion is seriously fucking stupid, if they canonically in D&D care enough to make devices to deal with disabilities, it's actually not weird at all that there are places that accommodate for wheelchairs by the universe's internal logic, in fact it would be weird that they go to the trouble of making absurdly expensive magic devices to deal with disabilities but can't make a fucking ramp which is way easier and cheaper to make.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

I like that robot arms and magic replacement eyes in D&D and literal magic animated robots are perfectly fine, even limb replacements, nobody made a fuss when they were added in Xanathar's Guide and the Eberron books, but wheelchair accessibility which can be done in real life is somehow too much, it has gone too far, it's not realistic, clearly in fantasy they would just leave disabled people to die or something.

I do mean all offense, but this discussion is seriously fucking stupid, if they canonically in D&D care enough to make devices to deal with disabilities, it's actually not weird at all that there are places that accommodate for wheelchairs by the universe's internal logic, in fact it would be weird that they go to the trouble of making absurdly expensive magic devices to deal with disabilities but can't make a fucking ramp which is way easier and cheaper to make.

1) The other stuff already exists solution wise.

2) The people pushing for a combat wheelchair basically had it have 0 downside, so you could basically cancel out any challenge from a disabled character because magic indestructible wheelchair that works as well if not better than legs because you can get shot and hit in legs but the wheelchair can magically block and absorb blows.

3) an actual wheelchair accessible ramp is harder to build than a set of stairs. Years ago I was helping build a fence. There was a bit of a grassy slope down to where me and others were building it with the materials at the top of the slope. By day 2 the slope was becoming a mud slide and people were slipping and nearly getting injured. I took a shovel and with some broken bits of tile and slabs I spent about 15 to 20 minutes to dig out a set of steps in the side of the slope and use the broken tile and slab to sort of embed them into the steps. They basically lasted the whole rest of the job building the fence. Cutting rough steps out of stone would likely be easier than cutting a specific incline ramps out of said stone which due to the need to be a specific incline would likely need more space while the small spiral staircase of a tower? yeh not needing that much space.

4) The further counter the "Ramps are easier" argument. I've been in numerous buildings where the wheelchair accessible option rather than a ramp was an electric lift because it required less room for construction.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

So the twitter woke crowd are now upset about the lack of Japanese people in the film Oppenheimer

 

[Eacaraxe]

As TheMysteriousGX and Silvanus point out, this is setting-dependent and doesn't actually make sense in a lot of fantasy worlds.

For this to be a valid argument, a given setting must be exceptionally low-magic, low-resource. Real dark fantasy shit. Like, "let's make a grimdark Hyborian Age" stuff.

So...Dark Sun. That's it. AKA, the setting WotC/Hasbro won't touch with a 50' pole because it was deemed Too Problematic for Reprint! The Brom artwork was just the tip of the fuckin' iceberg on that one, lemme tell you.

Greyhawk is the next-lowest magic setting in D&D, and every last bit of what I just mentioned with the exception of artificer content, is valid there. Faerun is the default campaign setting for 5e. Faerun is so explicitly high-magic it has its own magical Amazon equivalent where magical items can be mail ordered via magical catalog, and teleported directly to you. Aurora really stepped up her game, from back in the day when the Emporium was merely analog to Sears & Roebuck.

I don't have the Eberron supplement which much of this stuff you cite comes from. But that's the thing, isn't it - Eberron has a specific setting. We're both arguing setting being important, but you're the guy attempting to pretend it doesn't matter whenever it's convenient to you and so has a problem with logical consistency. You would do well to think on that before you accuse others of weaselling out of arguments.

Well, it's a good thing artificer content isn't Eberron-specific, and Eberron isn't the only setting in which artificers exist. Far from it, in fact, as the world explicitly separated from the rest by divine mandate and completely inaccessible by spelljammer has its own population of artificers.

The "Siri, define irony" part of all this, of course, is you're over here attempting quite possibly the most laughable, flaccid, reductio ad absurdum I've ever seen on these forums, talking about flying broom air forces. One of those published settings has dragon-rider air forces, and as if that wasn't enough, the dragons wear magical barding and have dual saddles so a wizard or cleric can ride shotgun with the dragon-riding mounted knight, who wields an artifact itself capable of being mass produced. And, those air forces are explicitly the main draw of the setting around which entire goddamn book series' were written.

That happens to be one of the oldest published settings in D&D altogether, twenty whole-ass years before Eberron saw print.

Now who was saying what about setting and consistency, or are we just reduced to indignant fart noises now?

In one sense sure, but it's also like arguing that nobody should be using wheelbarrows because excavators exist. Which is doubly weird because the Battle Wheelchair concept that sparked this whole thing was also an explicitly magical construct.

So the problem is literally just the wheels

More to the point, it's adding a wheelchair and ramps, and proceeding to expect cookies while all the other virtue signalers seal clap and wank over the cracker, acting like this is some glorious new era of inclusivity and acceptance for D&D, whilst solutions to these issues are baked into the game and have been for years, some of which dating back to the game's earliest iterations and editions. It's a fucking massive fake problem circle jerk so people can feel self-righteous about "fixing" it.

 

[Eacaraxe]

Spelljammer is so technopirate punk the only reason to raise an eyebrow at a fake limb is to ask why they don't have a pegleg and eyepatch.

Ooh good catch, I forgot one! Yes in fact there are magical eye patches.

Knave's Eye Patch - DND 5th Edition

dnd5e.wikidot.com

Rare in that form, but those are three amazingly badass magical abilities. It's a shame sunlight sensitivity got nuked off most PC races, because tossing one into a group with two or more drow or kobold PC's was always a good time. I could easily see a homebrewed common version which simply negates a single disadvantage from Perception (sight) checks.

Oh, and as far as "disabled adventurers so stunning and brave!" goes, it's awful funny I rarely if ever see anyone talking about playing a deaf-mute caster, or one with sensory processing issues or missing arms, hands, or fingers. Weird, that.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

For this to be a valid argument, a given setting must be exceptionally low-magic, low-resource. Real dark fantasy shit. Like, "let's make a grimdark Hyborian Age" stuff.

So...Dark Sun. That's it. AKA, the setting WotC/Hasbro won't touch with a 50' pole because it was deemed Too Problematic for Reprint! The Brom artwork was just the tip of the fuckin' iceberg on that one, lemme tell you.

I was about to ask if they reprinted Darksun in 5e, then I remembered it was 4e. They just changed the art, that was fine. The real problem is they had to delete all the fluff post rise of Tyr.

More to the point, it's adding a wheelchair and ramps, and proceeding to expect cookies while all the other virtue signalers seal clap and wank over the cracker, acting like this is some glorious new era of inclusivity and acceptance for D&D, whilst solutions to these issues are baked into the game and have been for years, some of which dating back to the game's earliest iterations and editions. It's a fucking massive fake problem circle jerk so people can feel self-righteous about "fixing" it.

Man, they're just wheelchairs. Whatever, I'd allow them, it's hardly the silliest thing in most D&D settings. Lest we forget what all's been scrubbed from Forgotten Realms to make it publishable.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

More to the point, it's adding a wheelchair and ramps, and proceeding to expect cookies while all the other virtue signalers seal clap and wank over the cracker, acting like this is some glorious new era of inclusivity and acceptance for D&D, whilst solutions to these issues are baked into the game and have been for years, some of which dating back to the game's earliest iterations and editions. It's a fucking massive fake problem circle jerk so people can feel self-righteous about "fixing" it.

Maybe people feel that way because wankers are gunning so fucking hard saying that this is bullshit. See also, that KYM link about battle wheelchairs and how those *fan-made* explicitly magical items caused major forums to have to be locked down due to flame wars. Totally normal reaction to a batch of fan kit some people liked.

But because some people liked their explicitly magical mobility aids to have wheels on them instead of being brooms and prosthetics that already existed this gets to be Culture War Ammunition that Says Something About Modern Society

If y'all would've been fucking normal about them then, it couldn't've been used for "virtue signaling seal clapping", fucking hell

 

[Eacaraxe]

I was about to ask if they reprinted Darksun in 5e, then I remembered it was 4e. They just changed the art, that was fine. The real problem is they had to delete all the fluff post rise of Tyr.

I'll be the first to admit TSR may have overdone it a bit in the original 2nd edition Dark Sun content, but it's at least true to the Robert E. Howard formula from which they were copping. I'd absolutely understand if they filed down some of the rougher edges, so long as it stayed true to the "brutal survivalist devolved society run by totalitarian warlords" theme, and climate change metaphor.

But, I don't trust WotC/Hasbro to not do the setting dirty like they did Dragonlance. Fuck that "yeah you can start as a paladin or cleric, the Test is more a guideline and it's not actually that dangerous, lol" nonsense. If I run Dragonlance, I'm running Dragonlance and fuck you in particular.

Man, they're just wheelchairs. Whatever, I'd allow them, it's hardly the silliest thing in most D&D settings. Lest we forget what all's been scrubbed from Forgotten Realms to make it publishable.

To be honest I would too, but I don't expect to get my dick sucked for it and I'm not sucking anyone's dick for it. It's a fucking wheelchair, not a D&D monolith descending from the heavens to uplift Gamer Troglodytes into the New Era of Stunning Bravery, while Also Sprach Zarathustra blasts from a 7.1 Dolby digital surround system with those stupid fucking vibrator-subwoofers built into the theater chairs.

See also, that KYM link about battle wheelchairs and how those *fan-made* explicitly magical items caused major forums to have to be locked down due to flame wars.

And has already been pointed out, it likely would have been received better had it not been "my Sonic O.C." game-breakingly overpowered, Mary Sue homebrew. As written, that shit could and should have been classified as an artifact, instead of an unclassified wondrous item cheaper than a cloak of billowing.

"You can move at your full speed regardless of mobility issues relevant to disability" would have been more appropriate in a common wondrous item.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

I'll be the first to admit TSR may have overdone it a bit in the original 2nd edition Dark Sun content, but it's at least true to the Robert E. Howard formula from which they were copping. I'd absolutely understand if they filed down some of the rougher edges, so long as it stayed true to the "brutal survivalist devolved society run by totalitarian warlords" theme, and climate change metaphor.

But, I don't trust WotC/Hasbro to not do the setting dirty like they did Dragonlance. Fuck that "yeah you can start as a paladin or cleric, the Test is more a guideline and it's not actually that dangerous, lol" nonsense. If I run Dragonlance, I'm running Dragonlance and fuck you in particular.

I vaguely remember the 4e Darksun was fine in that regard. It's just that the Prism Pentad didn't exist anymore. Or Beyond the Prism Pentad. And the Last Sea double didn't exist. Halflings were cannibals and that's all that matters.

To be honest I would too, but I don't expect to get my dick sucked for it and I'm not sucking anyone's dick for it. It's a fucking wheelchair, not a D&D monolith descending from the heavens to uplift Gamer Troglodytes into the New Era of Stunning Bravery, while Also Sprach Zarathustra blasts from a 7.1 Dolby digital surround system with those stupid fucking vibrator-subwoofers built into the theater chairs.

I don't know if that was the point originally. It sounded like some nerd made a battle wheelchair item and a bunch of grognards started smarming about how you would deal with a staircase.

In some light memeing to tame this

 

[Ag3ma]

Faerun is so explicitly high-magic it has its own magical Amazon equivalent where magical items can be mail ordered via magical catalog, and teleported directly to you.

It amazes me how you can write so much and get such basic things wrong. At worst, it's deliberate dishonesty to attempt to seem so knowledgable that people overlook the egregious bullshit. Faerun is supposed to be pretty baseline on prevalence of magic, where spellcasters are rare and few people own magical items. I believe the creator of Forgotten Realms suggested there is something like 1 spellcaster per 10,000 - 100,000 people. This is not the sort of ratio that supports magic at a household level.

This might not be how some people play it and some scenarios are set up, possibly because usually people play fantasy RPGs with the expectation of magic being a significant component. But it's definitely not supposed to be the sort of place where spellcaster factories churn out magic trinkets for mass consumption like we have vacuum cleaners and mobile phones, or even close.

The rest of course is your usual hyperbolic stream of utter shit. "A campaign setting had dragon-riders!", which has a hole in logic so huge it could swallow a planet, which is that it does not mean all other settings are the same.

And now we await the next deluge of hyperbolic shit which will serve zero purpose except you trying to show off how much you think you know without actually meaningfully addressing any point worth a damn.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

It amazes me how you can write so much and get such basic things wrong. At worst, it's deliberate dishonesty to attempt to seem so knowledgable that people overlook the egregious bullshit. Faerun is supposed to be pretty baseline on prevalence of magic, where spellcasters are rare and few people own magical items. I believe the creator of Forgotten Realms suggested there is something like 1 spellcaster per 10,000 - 100,000 people. This is not the sort of ratio that supports magic at a household level.

This might not be how some people play it and some scenarios are set up, possibly because usually people play fantasy RPGs with the expectation of magic being a significant component. But it's definitely not supposed to be the sort of place where spellcaster factories churn out magic trinkets for mass consumption like we have vacuum cleaners and mobile phones, or even close.

The rest of course is your usual hyperbolic stream of utter shit. "A campaign setting had dragon-riders!", which has a hole in logic so huge it could swallow a planet, which is that it does not mean all other settings are the same.

And now we await the next deluge of hyperbolic shit which will serve zero purpose except you trying to show off how much you think you know without actually meaningfully addressing any point worth a damn.

I was so confused by that statement I had to look it up, and they toned down Faerun for 5e, which makes sense now that it's officially the default setting for the system. But FR is notoriously one of the most high magic settings, with mages and the very gods intervening constantly. It's infamous for it's cabal of super powered NPCs that could solve any and every problem any player might have but have increasingly silly reasons to be lazy. The latest D&D movie had a pretty good summation where a sorcerer was showing off magic to a crowd, and someone heckled him saying their kid could do more than that.