Funny Events of the "Woke" world

Silvanus

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So, I take it you know that I'm right about everything at this point, and understand that not a word you've said has had any meaningful impact.
The classic last-ditch tactic: pretending you've won in order to avoid addressing the post.

You accused your opponents of being fine with murder or being dishonest. Everything after that point has been mental gymnastics to avoid acknowledging you'd done that.
 

Silvanus

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That's not the argument...
Uhrm, its a request for you to provide substantiation for your argument. You said something was objectively legally true, but can't cite the law.

From the horse's mouth:

"State courts are the final arbiters of state laws and constitutions. Their interpretation of federal law or the U.S. Constitution may be appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court. The Supreme Court may choose to hear or not to hear such cases."

Underlining mine. 😮

Again:

"Unless the federal courts possess exclusive jurisdiction over a matter, state courts may hear cases over which federal courts would have also had jurisdiction."

"the Supreme Court has ruled that state courts generally must hear federal law claims unless state law bars a state court from hearing a federal claim through a neutral rule of judicial administration that does not improperly burden claims arising under federal law"

"The Court thus held [in Claflin v Houseman] that the State courts have concurrent jurisdiction [on federal claims] whenever, by their own constitution, they are competent to take it."

😮😮

Claflin v Houseman itself:

"When we consider the structure and true relations of the federal and state governments, there is really no just foundation for excluding the state courts from all such jurisdiction."

😮😮😮
 
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tstorm823

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The classic last-ditch tactic: pretending you've won in order to avoid addressing the post.

You accused your opponents of being fine with murder or being dishonest. Everything after that point has been mental gymnastics to avoid acknowledging you'd done that.
You aren't addressing the point. You have made no attempt at confronting the substance of the argument.

Why are you bothering to argue with me? What is the point? Right now, it's like we're sitting at a chess board, and you're refusing to make a move and waiting for me to concede because I touched one pawn before moving a different one. But it's not a structured event, there is not judge, all you're accomplishing is not playing the game.
 

Silvanus

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You aren't addressing the point. You have made no attempt at confronting the substance of the argument.
Because you've backed away from the substance of the accusation you made. Why would I argue when you're not standing by the accusation anyway?

Why are you bothering to argue with me? What is the point? Right now, it's like we're sitting at a chess board, and you're refusing to make a move and waiting for me to concede because I touched one pawn before moving a different one. But it's not a structured event, there is not judge, all you're accomplishing is not playing the game.
Then perhaps you should stop seeing this as a game. I did not try to convince you on the subject of abortion. I simply pointed out that in the past you had claimed a good understanding of your opponents, and now by contrast you were just slinging insults and assuming those opponents shared your moral framework or were lying.

The point was to encourage you to try to actually make good on that claim to understand. And you've abandoned the main accusation ("OK with murder or dishonest"), so that's a good start.
 

dreng3

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And just because even the highest court in the land can make mistakes doesn't mean there isn't a correct answer when there is a correct answer.
May the gods spare me the suffering of living in any world in which you are the supreme authority on correct or wrong answers.

The supreme court, and many federal ones, are subversion of democracy, intended to insulate and protect the powerful from the will of the masses and the consequences of their actions. Abortion is popular, a majority of the US citizens want abortion to be legal, but because some incompetents have been allowed to occupy seats in congress such a proposal will never reach the floor, and the courts, packed with political appointees (of which several lied about their opinions to get there) are sorely inefficient checks on the legislative branch as they allow the mess to continue.
 

Schadrach

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No one is challenging that federal law supersedes state law, they're asking you for the specific federal law that does so in this case.

I know, that's why I asked the question, because federal laws would be pointless if states can just interpret them any way they want to.
Sure, sure, but in this specific context what federal law are they just interpreting any way they want to?
 

Phoenixmgs

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Uhrm, its a request for you to provide substantiation for your argument. You said something was objectively legally true, but can't cite the law.

From the horse's mouth:

"State courts are the final arbiters of state laws and constitutions. Their interpretation of federal law or the U.S. Constitution may be appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court. The Supreme Court may choose to hear or not to hear such cases."

Underlining mine. 😮

Again:

"Unless the federal courts possess exclusive jurisdiction over a matter, state courts may hear cases over which federal courts would have also had jurisdiction."

"the Supreme Court has ruled that state courts generally must hear federal law claims unless state law bars a state court from hearing a federal claim through a neutral rule of judicial administration that does not improperly burden claims arising under federal law"

"The Court thus held [in Claflin v Houseman] that the State courts have concurrent jurisdiction [on federal claims] whenever, by their own constitution, they are competent to take it."

😮😮

Claflin v Houseman itself:

"When we consider the structure and true relations of the federal and state governments, there is really no just foundation for excluding the state courts from all such jurisdiction."

😮😮😮
It was a joke of a use of the court system to remove Trump from the ballot because it was going to be an obvious overturn. The states were literally acting like baseball umpire purposefully making the wrong call. It's the equivalent of the constitution saying you can't a murderer run for president and then states deciding that say OJ Simpson couldn't have run for president. He's not a convicted murderer so it would be a dumbass ruling. At least OJ was tried for murder, Trump wasn't even tried for insurrection let alone convicted. Funny what happens when you just apply basic logic.

What I said:
A state can uphold federal law, but can't decide federal law.

You really don't understand your own country's legal framework, do you? Firstly, states have significant freedom to determine their own electoral rules. That too is guaranteed constitutionally. If the Supreme Court were to rule, they could easily rule that states may make their own determinations.

There are rationales available for the justices to do whatever they want. It doesn't depend on actual legal weight. It depends on what they personally want.
They would have never ruled that because that's not how laws work.


May the gods spare me the suffering of living in any world in which you are the supreme authority on correct or wrong answers.

The supreme court, and many federal ones, are subversion of democracy, intended to insulate and protect the powerful from the will of the masses and the consequences of their actions. Abortion is popular, a majority of the US citizens want abortion to be legal, but because some incompetents have been allowed to occupy seats in congress such a proposal will never reach the floor, and the courts, packed with political appointees (of which several lied about their opinions to get there) are sorely inefficient checks on the legislative branch as they allow the mess to continue.
I'm not the biggest fan of democracy, I just don't have a better solution honestly. I don't know why you guys get all up in arms about judges being political appointees and acting like that is some massive anti-democracy workaround. In Illinois, there's a massive section on the ballot for retaining or not retaining judges, and like 0.00001% of the public is going to know if a judge is actually doing a good job or not and the vote is pure ignorance.
 

Silvanus

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And you've systematically proven me correct from the start.
Correct about... the accusation that you don't even stand by? OK.

It was a joke of a use of the court system to remove Trump from the ballot because it was going to be an obvious overturn. [...]
The SCOTUS were likely to overturn it because it would be politically dangerous to allow it. There's no solid or unambiguous federal law that prevents states barring candidates for state primaries-- I notice you've been unable to cite one.

And of course, you also claimed that states can't rule on cases arising from federal law. Which has now been comprehensively shown to be bullshit.
 

tstorm823

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Correct about... the accusation that you don't even stand by? OK.
Are you really so oblivious? This entire argument is you not understanding my position, while accusing me of not understanding others, leading ultimately to you agreeing the moment you understood, but out of sheer stubbornness insisting that the thing you didn't understand was me changing my position.
 

Silvanus

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Are you really so oblivious? This entire argument is you not understanding my position, while accusing me of not understanding others, leading ultimately to you agreeing the moment you understood, but out of sheer stubbornness insisting that the thing you didn't understand was me changing my position.
I agreed that abortion involves killing (as does uprooting a plant), something that isn't disputed by me or practically any other pro-choice people.

But the truth is that initially you made a very different accusation about what your opponents believe. That's one I never agreed with, and as soon as you were challenged on it, you abandoned it and pretended you hadn't made it at all.
 

tstorm823

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I agreed that abortion involves killing (as does uprooting a plant), something that isn't disputed by me or practically any other pro-choice people.

But the truth is that initially you made a very different accusation about what your opponents believe. That's one I never agreed with, and as soon as you were challenged on it, you abandoned it and pretended you hadn't made it at all.
Are you aware of the term "straw man"?
 

Silvanus

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So you aren't familiar with that term, got it.
You can't be on an Internet forum for more than 10 minutes and unfamiliar.

You applied a false, unrepresentative version of your opponents' position to them, because its easier to engage with that than to engage with what they've actually said. Substantially that's an extremely similar rhetorical tactic.
 

tstorm823

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You can't be on an Internet forum for more than 10 minutes and unfamiliar.

You applied a false, unrepresentative version of your opponents' position to them, because its easier to engage with that than to engage with what they've actually said. Substantially that's an extremely similar rhetorical tactic.
I said a certain position was more honest than another. I applied those positions to nobody in particular. I not really argued against anything since you've made no substantive argument for either, and have instead chosen to continue to argue against words that I didn't say.
 

Silvanus

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I said a certain position was more honest than another. I applied those positions to nobody in particular.
No; you said that a certain stance was the only honest way to be pro-choice. Which by necessity means the statement applies to all pro-choice people.

I not really argued against anything since you've made no substantive argument for either, and have instead chosen to continue to argue against words that I didn't say.
Pointing to something someone else said, and saying "I think this", is meaningfully identical to using the words yourself. This whole 'I didn't literally write the words' argument is incredibly unconvincing and disingenuous, and I sincerely hope you can see that.
 

tstorm823

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No; you said that a certain stance was the only honest way to be pro-choice. Which by necessity means the statement applies to all pro-choice people.
Are you suggesting that it is impossible to be dishonest?
Pointing to something someone else said, and saying "I think this", is meaningfully identical to using the words yourself. This whole 'I didn't literally write the words' argument is incredibly unconvincing and disingenuous, and I sincerely hope you can see that.
If I were trying to disown the idea entirely, you'd have a point. You are nitpicking specific verbiage, while I maintain the same position as ever.