Game of Thrones - I give up

keosegg

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BloatedGuppy said:
I realize you threw in "IMO" which is universal short hand for "you cannot criticize or rebut this", but it's just an absurd criticism. The books are no less plot dense or short of set pieces than the preceding volumes.

I know you established with your sniffy hand wave that they're average books at best, so possibly you just don't consider ANYTHING he writes to be worth reading, but "I don't like it, ergo it sucks" is not a compelling foundation for an argument.
I was under the impression "In my own opinion" meant: "This is my opinion, therefore it is not gospel truth. Feel free to agree, or disagree as you see fit."

And the thing is, I do consider Martin's work to be reading, there's a rich world and wonderful characters in the series. It's just that when it comes to that actual words on page, it's just not that good.

Anyway, I probably should have said "nothing of importance happens in 'A Feast for Crows'." All of Cersei's actions result in nothing but failure, hell, practically anyone who deals in backroom politics will fail in this book. If they do nothing but fail, is anything achieved?

And all the stuff you mentioned about Jon, Dany and Tyrion happened in "A Dance With Dragons", not "A Feast for Crows". Which is why I said that nothing happens in "A Feast for Crows" since most of that good stuff happens in the book that is released six years after.
 

Haakmed

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I got mad at that part in the books but am I the only one who actually liked that part of it? Considering how it made me do a character shuffle which I can't recall any time I have had to do that. I think that was some of the best writing I have read in a long time.
 

Virgilthepagan

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I'm sorry to phrase it this way, but was the point to this thread just to yank the GoT fantiger by the tail?


"The only reason I watched the show after that was because I held out hope that maybe they'd handle that part of the story in a way that didn't anger me as much as the book did."

So...you'd hoped they would edit in a happy ending, ensuring that Robb's consistent failure to handle the political side of his kingdom would be rewarded for some reason? That his habit of putting personal desire ahead of his people would go unpunished by this world? Robb's a tragic hero, and as much as I wanted to throw the book against a wall when he died, it's hard not to reread it and see just how badly things were going. If anything the show finessed this nicely, I had a better sense of just how downhill things were going for the Young Wolf.

What would you have preferred they do? I'm sorry, I don't think GRRM is your author if you're looking for happy endings. Even Ned Stark might've tipped that one off...
 

BloatedGuppy

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Azahul said:
It takes something serious for me to compare a series favourably to something by Raymond E. Feist, but his Daughter of the Empire books are vastly superior when it comes to the kind of politics and double-dealing that A Game of Thrones seemed to promise, but that subsequent books utterly failed to deliver.
Really? Feist?

Really?

I...I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

keosegg said:
Anyway, I probably should have said "nothing of importance happens in 'A Feast for Crows'." All of Cersei's actions result in nothing but failure, hell, practically anyone who deals in backroom politics will fail in this book. If they do nothing but fail, is anything achieved?
The plot has been consistently moved forward through five volumes. We're still in rising action. I'm not sure what more you want "achieved".

keosegg said:
And all the stuff you mentioned about Jon, Dany and Tyrion happened in "A Dance With Dragons", not "A Feast for Crows". Which is why I said that nothing happens in "A Feast for Crows" since most of that good stuff happens in the book that is released six years after.
AFFC and ADWD are two halves of a single volume. I've already admitted splitting the books favored neither of them, but even if you look at AFFC in a vacuum plenty happens. Just nothing you were interested in, apparently.
 

Owyn_Merrilin

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BloatedGuppy said:
Owyn_Merrilin said:
That said, I don't have a problem with shows like that existing. I /do/ have a problem with the kind of shows I like not existing anymore because of them. I mentioned Defiance because it's the first new sci fi show I've seen since before the BSG reboot that had any sort of idealism to it that didn't also feel like it was making fun of me for being nerdy enough to watch it. I deal with enough assholes in real life to not want them to be the only thing I see on TV, too.
What's going on with Defiance? All I know is the game tanked HARD and Trion had to lay off half their staff. I haven't really been following the show. From episode previews it looked absolutely ridiculous. You're the first person I've heard from who watches it. What's it about? What's the tone of it? What are some comparable shows?
The show has already been renewed for a second season, so if the game is tanking apparently the show isn't.

As for the show itself, the best way I can describe it is with a Star Trek analogy. Star Trek has often been called Wagon Train to the stars. Defiance is more like Gunsmoke with aliens.

Basically, it's a show about aliens and humans living together in a post apocalyptic world, after a war between the aliens and humans (caused by stupidity on both sides, rather than an actual invasion) and some accidental terraforming of the planet earth, so that vast parts of the surface have been changed. It kind of reminds me of Stargate: SG-1 combined with an old fashioned Western -- specifically, Gunsmoke. I've seen it compared to Deadwood, which I haven't seen, but I can't imagine that it's a more apt comparison than Gunsmoke. What I like about it is it's not ashamed of the fact that it's science fiction. Most "sci fi" shows in the last seven or eight years have either been straight up fantasy, or they've done their best to dress it up as something else that happened to have weird stuff going on in the background. In this show, the science fiction elements are very much in the foreground. It helps that it's also a fun, engaging show, and that so far each episode has been better than the last.

That said, it's pretty polarizing, but most of the complaints seem to be coming from people who don't like this sort of show. They're mostly either complaining that it's not a glorified soap opera like BSG was (though obviously not in so many words), or that it wasn't the best show in history right from the first episode, apparently forgetting that almost all of the greats in the genre didn't get good until the second or third season, and they didn't get great until the third or fourth. For the first season of a new science fiction series, this thing is /damned/ good.
 

J Tyran

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Owyn_Merrilin said:
to a lesser extent, Star Trek: Enterprise[footnote]You could replace Captain Archer with Jack Bauer, and I don't think anyone would even notice. They're both bastards who have no qualms about torturing people if they think it will work, because 9/11 happened and good guys can commit torture now that our military does it.[/footnote]
Star Trek turned dark long before 9/11 and Enterprise, millions died during the Dominion war, factions formed within the Federation that where as ruthless as say the Romulans that saw genocide and dangerous biological weapons as its go to solutions alongside general espionage and criminal acts. Senior Captains like Sisko arranged murders, extortion, trading of prohibited weapons, political assassinations. Other senior officers helped overthrow governments, in fact all kinds of nasty and dark stuff happened.

The innocence was lost so much in Deepspace Nine that a lot of this stuff happened in single episodes let alone across the whole series.
 

Eclectic Dreck

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hazabaza1 said:
GoT was logical, built up, and explainable within the universe. Mass Effect had maaaaaaaaaaany more problems. Just sayin'.

But yeah George actually spoke about why he did the scene the way he did and pointed out that a lot of people gave up on it around that point.
Honestly I don't really get this whole abandoning the series thing myself but okay, whatever. Sucks to be you I guess.
I'm not particularly sure I agree. While some repercussion was expected the actual retribution reeks of cartoonish villainy. In exchange for a satisfaction of honor, given that the slight was simply that - a slight, they violate a sacrosanct tradition of safety and engage in what is nothing more than a base murder of a king and a few thousand retainers. Because of a personal slight, and offense of honor, they take the least honorable possible course. A course that, it should be noted, has only insignificant short term gain and will serve only to undermine their position in all matters of state and diplomacy in the future.

That's the reason people are upset I'd wager. The reaction does not match the offense and is so extreme that it seems to have been picked completely because it was the least plausible outcome. Hell, Martin even says as much in an <a href=http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/07/showbiz/tv/game-martin-red-wedding-ew>interview.
 

keosegg

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BloatedGuppy said:
AFFC and ADWD are two halves of a single volume. I've already admitted splitting the books favored neither of them, but even if you look at AFFC in a vacuum plenty happens. Just nothing you were interested in, apparently.
I know stuff happened in AFFC, but the problem is, Martin is so obsessed with minutiae that when the "stuff" finally comes, it's taken us nearly 700 pages to get there. AFFC and ADWD could have and should have been one novel, Cersei's arc could have been completed in about a third of the time allotted in the book. Instead, she spends 200 pages thinking everyone's an arsehole before she finally does something. I mean, whenever Margeary does something that looks like it'll make Cersei lose it, but no, she fumes mentally and does nothing. It seems as if Martin was trying to show Cersei being cautious for a change, but sitting on her arse all day and fuming to herself is not the way to do it. There is no drama.

200 pages, a quarter of the book is dedicated to this. It could have been done in about fifty pages.

Jamie's arc is full of nothing but inaction. That's great for Jamie, The Kingslayer is finally taking it slow. But the thing is, the rest of the book feels like nothing but inaction, and combined with the inaction of Jamie, it makes it all the worse. He gets bitched at by Cersei, roams the countryside, stays with relatives, gets bitched at by them, complains about Cersei's infidelity before finally going to Riverrun and negotiating peace. That sounds great, but as I said, compared with the inaction of the rest of the novel, it just looses all of it's punch.

And the Dornish folk, so many one off characters, all relatives of The Red Viper. They all want to go to war, but Oberyn says no. For most of their allotted time, it looks as if he's nothing but a giant wimp, but then near the end, it's revealed that he had a master plan all along, and it involves Dany, somehow, I don't know, it wasn't clear.

AFFC was nothing but tedium. Martin mentioned something about The Meereenese Knot of his story and how difficult it was to untangle it, drawing parallels to the Gordian Knot from the legends of Alexander the Great. Of course what Alexander did to that knot was cut it in half with his sword. That's what Martin should have done with AFFC, taken his authorial sword and cut the plot knot in half.

I should probably mention that this is all my opinion, informed by my own biases and not gospel truth. You can disagree with me and state why and I'll gladly receive it and respond, but it's doubtful you'll change my mind.
 

Fangface74

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I think you (the OP) should only feel disappointment that a form of entertainment you were enjoying, ended up not resonating on your personal level. Feelings of disgust though....really? It's overreactions like this that are just the flip-side of the 'fanboy coin', whether it's video games, movies etc, there's this ridiculous sense of entitlement that kicks in that I just don't get.

Here's my process;

1.Movie/Game/TV Show fails to make me happy

2.Me (turns to GF): 'Well that sucked'

3.GF:'Yeah....what else is on?'

4.Life go's on

I'm really not trying to be reductionist towards this, I think a lot of shit that our beloved media has had to swallow would be considerably less, if the public saves it's real, strong feelings for real issues, and if a writer/director/actor/whatever doesn't meet your expectations for whatever reason, well, they never owed you that in the first place, it's just nice when the hard work pays off for personally :)
 

scw55

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I don't have any interest in Game of Thrones really mainly due to the story. I have tried many times, but it has always felt like it's a record of an "Imaginary war fought with toy figures by a 9 year old" (ignoring the sex because 9 year olds don't know what sex is. They think it's kissing naked).
Maybe I just don't enjoy the structure. Perhaps I prefer stories like Lord of the Rings or the Hobbit where it's got a structure of sorts. Game of Thrones comes across as fantasy-reality TV. It's not my cup of tea, or glass of wine.
 

mooncalf

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It's not like GoT hasn't done stuff like this before, a lot of the characters have come to a bad end. It's okay for it to be a tragedy. Keep watching, you know you want to. :D
 

SamFancyPants252

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I've never touched any of the books but I savour every single scene in the show, it seems each and every one is important. I like most how characters like Varys get screen time, with little details about backstory woven into the "big picture" stuff. That said, I feel like a lot of the stuff from season 3 could have been replaced with more exciting/momentous scenes (ie all of Theon's torture scenes could have been condensed into 1 or 2 with the same effect)

Can't wait for season 4 though. It's going to be a long, long year.
 

J Tyran

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Eclectic Dreck said:
hazabaza1 said:
GoT was logical, built up, and explainable within the universe. Mass Effect had maaaaaaaaaaany more problems. Just sayin'.

But yeah George actually spoke about why he did the scene the way he did and pointed out that a lot of people gave up on it around that point.
Honestly I don't really get this whole abandoning the series thing myself but okay, whatever. Sucks to be you I guess.
I'm not particularly sure I agree. While some repercussion was expected the actual retribution reeks of cartoonish villainy. In exchange for a satisfaction of honor, given that the slight was simply that - a slight, they violate a sacrosanct tradition of safety and engage in what is nothing more than a base murder of a king and a few thousand retainers. Because of a personal slight, and offense of honor, they take the least honorable possible course. A course that, it should be noted, has only insignificant short term gain and will serve only to undermine their position in all matters of state and diplomacy in the future.

That's the reason people are upset I'd wager. The reaction does not match the offense...
The show messed it up a bit but it wasn't just a "slight" because Rob denied the Freys a hugely important political marriage, having one his daughters as Queen of the North and tied into the greater Riverlands alliance was a big deal. Wars and murders have happened in the past over things like that, historically the only things more important where ruling Monarchs or senior Religious positions like Pope or Archbishop. It was also had other important ramifications, it gave the Freys control over Riverrun and Roose Bolton became Warden of the North. Finally it created an alliance between the Freys, Boltons and Lannisters.

There was a hell of a lot more politics involved and a lot more than "cartoonish villainy", revenge was only part of it.
 

Dags90

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I didn't think it was particularly upsetting, nor did I find it particularly entertaining. I've never read the books but it was immediately obvious what would happen the second they played the ominous violin music and shut the doors. It was also obvious in the long run because he was much too boring as a character to be king (See: Renly Baratheon). I'm just upset we didn't get to see more of him naked.
 

Blood Brain Barrier

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Scarim Coral said:
Meh if I wanted to watch/ read a sterotypical/ cliche fantasy story I go read the existing books out there.

By all mean I don't believe that the whole dark and edgy theme with Game of Throne are doing it for the sake of it (there are reason/ justification to it) but the whole show itself set it apart from the many other fantasy stories out there (unless someone know a much darker book than Tales of Fire and Ice) which just make it more engaging to watch/ read (no one is safe but I will be pissed if Tyrion get killed off!).
"I'm going to be different just for the sake of being different"

Yeah, there's not too much that's commendable about that kind of setting apart.
 

GundamSentinel

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The red wedding got rid of some very boring characters for me, both in the show and in the books. The only negative point about it for me was that the books after it weren't as exciting and eventful as before.

I'd have thought that after season 1 people would know not to back the Starks too strongly. It is a universe where naive and stupid people get brutally punished for it. I have read the books, but I still don't see how people who haven't, didn't see this coming. People wishing for a happy ending are really watching the wrong show.
 

kingthrall

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1. The books are still being written so people assuming for a happy ending Half Way mind you through the current series so far are being rather dim witted.

2. Ive read people complaining that they want the happy ending with the heroic knight saving the day, well people also forget that the bad dudes usually have their moment of glory and Id say this is almost the pinnacle of it.

3. George RR martin is a brilliant writer otherwise people would/wouldn't be posting so much controversy about it. Even if your like the O.P clueless and refuse to read/watch onward then of course your not going to see the happy ending or the characters you love come through with a victory so to speak (if there is one).

4. Bronn the merc is still alive and that is all that matters is the good brown ale and fine women!
 

Madman123456

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ambitiousmould said:
I think the story is great. Usually in fantasy and fiction in general the hero always wins/survives and it takes all the tension out.
Well, you run in the opposite direction. Everybody dies, everyone gets eventually murdered somehow despite all attempts to murder everyone else first.

Which kinda takes the tension out.
 

hazabaza1

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Eclectic Dreck said:
hazabaza1 said:
GoT was logical, built up, and explainable within the universe. Mass Effect had maaaaaaaaaaany more problems. Just sayin'.

But yeah George actually spoke about why he did the scene the way he did and pointed out that a lot of people gave up on it around that point.
Honestly I don't really get this whole abandoning the series thing myself but okay, whatever. Sucks to be you I guess.
I'm not particularly sure I agree. While some repercussion was expected the actual retribution reeks of cartoonish villainy. In exchange for a satisfaction of honor, given that the slight was simply that - a slight, they violate a sacrosanct tradition of safety and engage in what is nothing more than a base murder of a king and a few thousand retainers. Because of a personal slight, and offense of honor, they take the least honorable possible course. A course that, it should be noted, has only insignificant short term gain and will serve only to undermine their position in all matters of state and diplomacy in the future.

That's the reason people are upset I'd wager. The reaction does not match the offense and is so extreme that it seems to have been picked completely because it was the least plausible outcome. Hell, Martin even says as much in an <a href=http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/07/showbiz/tv/game-martin-red-wedding-ew>interview.
Walder Frey was also a crazy fucking old dude whose last chance for any personal honour and recognition was slighted because of (how he called it) firm tits and a tight fit. Makes sense that he would get crazy insulted.

Also chances are one of the Lannisters gave him an offer or something similar what with whatshisface getting the killing blow on Robb.