Game of Thrones Season 4 Ep 8 "The Mountain and the Viper" Review

[DerangedHobo]

Oh man, totally. And he could've easily blocked that direct hit as Mountain didn't hold Oberyn's hands.

That would of actually been way better, if The Mountain knocks his teeth out and you think Oberyn is done for but then he goes for the eyes and takes the Mountain down (I mean let's face it, not like Oberyn is big on "honor" himself). I think the Game of Thrones TV show should divert from the books more and take more risks.

 

[Greg Tito]

You guys are forgetting that Oberyn was surprised and thrown onto his back with no cushion onto a solid floor. He's stunned by having the wind knocked out of him. He did try to move away, but it took longer than the second it took the Mountain to grab his face and punch him in the mouth. The sequence sucked for the "good guys" sure, but it's not as implausible as you make it out to be.

 

[IllumInaTIma]

You guys are forgetting that Oberyn was surprised and thrown onto his back with no cushion onto a solid floor. He's stunned by having the wind knocked out of him. He did try to move away, but it took longer than the second it took the Mountain to grab his face and punch him in the mouth. The sequence sucked for the "good guys" sure, but it's not as implausible as you make it out to be.

Well, that is the thing. First of all, it is incredibly difficult to swipe someone's leg so hard that he would fall. But ok. Here comes the thing, even god damn figure skaters train themselves to regroup their body in such a way to minimize the damage. Martial arts have such a thing as "Ukemi". Basically why fighters are able to toss each other around without breaking skulls or bones. Warrior of Oberyn's level must have this kind of thing memorized to the level of reflex. And even if Mountain was able to grab him and somehow lift him up there was nothing preventing Oberyn from simply putting a palm in front of his face. You do not establish a character as a fighter genius and then make him forget the most basic things. This is my problem with the whole sequence. It felt forced. If Oberyn died during the duel, like a warrior then I wouldn't have problem with it. The Mountain is just a better warrior. But no, deus bullshit machina had to interfere. And it's even more jarring when you finally see The feared Mountain in battle. No skill, no grace, no tactics. Just a brute, a caricature and a slap to the face of the audience.

 

[sumanoskae]

Whelp, my kill list just got a little bit bigger. It wasn't enough foe Gregor to murder and rape Oberyn's sister and kill her kids; it wasn't enough for him to kill Oberyn; he had to taunt him about his dead sister while he did it, what a ****!

Figures now that Joffrey is out of the picture, there are more people for us to hate. Maybe all these people really are better off dead; that frozen zombie apocalypse is looking more and more appealing.

 

[SKBPinkie]

Weirdly enough, I'm far more mad at Cersei than I am at the Mountain. That smile she had when Oberyn died was way too much smugness for me to handle.

If there's one character who I want to see die a slow, painful, lonely, dog's death - it's Cersei.

EDIT: Just thought of this, but there's a very serious issue with the whole "any character can die" thing - you cannot get attached to any character, ever. Knowing the fact that they could literally die an episode later kinda makes me think that it's pointless to care about them.

When I first started watching the series, the whole "vulnerable heroes" was an interesting change of pace (at first), but I just don't know if I really care anymore. Let's see how this season ends; I'm not sure I might continue after that.

 

[Ralancian]

Here's the thing I've always felt about this fight (and it was perfectly done IMO) The Red Viper has absolutely no interest in winning. All he wants is the confession out of The Mountain and he'll do anything to get it. Honestly in the books it read to me as he could win at any point and it slowly dawns that he doesn't want that.

Spoiler

When you take into considerations the spear is laced with poison that makes you die a very slow and agonising death. I honestly think he always intended to loose but to rile the mountain up enough that he'd confess to his crimes for the world to see. So you can easily explain any lack of ability on his part on the end of just being happy he's got his confession.

One of the things I love about this scene(and this series contains many of my favorites form the books) is he's probably the first character to die who probably knows it's going to happen but has done it to get exactly what he wants and gets it.

 

[JET1971]

And no matter how freakish you are it is still bullshit. It is medieval heavy armor. That shit was so heavy that falling from your horse would basically pin knight to the ground, not being able to get up. Add to that multiple injuries, fatigue, bloodloss and poison and the only thing saving you would be writer's decision.

Medieval armor even full plate with mail under is NOT so heavy it will pin you to the ground. It is actually easier to get up from a fall wearing it than it is for a modern soldier to get back up fully kitted out. You have to consider at the most 80lbs covering your whole body with armor and a modern soldier has that around the torso mostly. Average for full armor is far less than 80lbs but it might get there with an 8ft man named "The Mountain". Also he wasn't wearing plate armor but a generic scale mail with leather plates attached to the chainmail. A much lighter armor.

As for falling from a horse a fully kitted out knight has a far better chance of getting up quickly than you or I would wearing jeans, shirt, and cowboy boots would. There is a thick padding between the armor and flesh that absorbs shock. The force from falling they would feel would be far less than what we would and they have less to worry about bones being broken.

 

[Kiardras]

And it's even more jarring when you finally see The feared Mountain in battle. No skill, no grace, no tactics. Just a brute, a caricature and a slap to the face of the audience.

That was kind of the point of the Mountain though. Other men fight with skill, or ability. The Mountain is a freak of nature who wins not through skill but unstoppable brutality.

 

[softclocks]

The fight was so much better in the book...

The Mountain didn't even bring his god damn shield in the tv-series.

 

[bdcjacko]

I am reminded of the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly and Tuco line "If you are going to shoot someone, shoot, don't talk."

Btw, if Eli Wallach plays Doran Martell, I'll mark out so hard.

 

[Hiramas]

I am still hoping for Alexander Siddig as Doran Martell.
Loved the episode. Everything was just beautiful.
Best part was Aryas laughing, though. Just awesome.

 

[shadowmagus]

Here's the thing I've always felt about this fight (and it was perfectly done IMO) The Red Viper has absolutely no interest in winning. All he wants is the confession out of The Mountain and he'll do anything to get it. Honestly in the books it read to me as he could win at any point and it slowly dawns that he doesn't want that.

Nice to see someone else on these forums who gets it.

 

[Malty Milk Whistle]

You guys are forgetting that Oberyn was surprised and thrown onto his back with no cushion onto a solid floor. He's stunned by having the wind knocked out of him. He did try to move away, but it took longer than the second it took the Mountain to grab his face and punch him in the mouth. The sequence sucked for the "good guys" sure, but it's not as implausible as you make it out to be.

Well, that is the thing. First of all, it is incredibly difficult to swipe someone's leg so hard that he would fall. But ok. Here comes the thing, even god damn figure skaters train themselves to regroup their body in such a way to minimize the damage. Martial arts have such a thing as "Ukemi". Basically why fighters are able to toss each other around without breaking skulls or bones. Warrior of Oberyn's level must have this kind of thing memorized to the level of reflex. And even if Mountain was able to grab him and somehow lift him up there was nothing preventing Oberyn from simply putting a palm in front of his face. You do not establish a character as a fighter genius and then make him forget the most basic things. This is my problem with the whole sequence. It felt forced. If Oberyn died during the duel, like a warrior then I wouldn't have problem with it. The Mountain is just a better warrior. But no, deus bullshit machina had to interfere. And it's even more jarring when you finally see The feared Mountain in battle. No skill, no grace, no tactics. Just a brute, a caricature and a slap to the face of the audience.

2 things.

1) Mountain's strong enough to smash a man in two, it's probably not that hard for him to swipe someone's legs from under them, and adding to that, Oberyn does not expect it at all. He's cocky and arrogant, and is honestly thinking he's won, so gets caught off guard and R_ekd, again, hammering home the idea that might is better than grace or morals.
2) the Mountain is a better warrior, it's been stated so many times in the books. Oberyn may be pretty, fast and have fancy gear, but he's still a hedonistic lordling.
Mountain's had non-stop fighting and killing for almost all of his life.
He's meant to be a brute, that's his characterisation. Big dumb muscle. The most important thing he's ever done is probably forcing his brother's face into the fire, sparking off Sandor's character development.

 

[K12]

You guys are forgetting that Oberyn was surprised and thrown onto his back with no cushion onto a solid floor. He's stunned by having the wind knocked out of him. He did try to move away, but it took longer than the second it took the Mountain to grab his face and punch him in the mouth. The sequence sucked for the "good guys" sure, but it's not as implausible as you make it out to be.

Well, that is the thing. First of all, it is incredibly difficult to swipe someone's leg so hard that he would fall. But ok. Here comes the thing, even god damn figure skaters train themselves to regroup their body in such a way to minimize the damage. Martial arts have such a thing as "Ukemi". Basically why fighters are able to toss each other around without breaking skulls or bones. Warrior of Oberyn's level must have this kind of thing memorized to the level of reflex. And even if Mountain was able to grab him and somehow lift him up there was nothing preventing Oberyn from simply putting a palm in front of his face. You do not establish a character as a fighter genius and then make him forget the most basic things. This is my problem with the whole sequence. It felt forced. If Oberyn died during the duel, like a warrior then I wouldn't have problem with it. The Mountain is just a better warrior. But no, deus bullshit machina had to interfere. And it's even more jarring when you finally see The feared Mountain in battle. No skill, no grace, no tactics. Just a brute, a caricature and a slap to the face of the audience.

2 things.

1) Mountain's strong enough to smash a man in two, it's probably not that hard for him to swipe someone's legs from under them, and adding to that, Oberyn does not expect it at all. He's cocky and arrogant, and is honestly thinking he's won, so gets caught off guard and R_ekd, again, hammering home the idea that might is better than grace or morals.
2) the Mountain is a better warrior, it's been stated so many times in the books. Oberyn may be pretty, fast and have fancy gear, but he's still a hedonistic lordling.
Mountain's had non-stop fighting and killing for almost all of his life.
He's meant to be a brute, that's his characterisation. Big dumb muscle. The most important thing he's ever done is probably forcing his brother's face into the fire, sparking off Sandor's character development.

I think they could have generally done a better job of setting up Ser Gregor as being both a violent lunatic and an extremely powerful and seasoned warrior. Slaughtering unarmed prisoners with his shirt off didn't fully get that picture across. If Oberyn had one bad dodge then he's just dead.

I think they tried to balance the fact that they couldn't really get a suitable actor who was over 7 and a 1/2 feet tall with making him mega-muscular but this kinda just made him look clumsy and inelegant.

Still, I thought the fight was bloody good.

 

[Branindain]

I actually like when the show strays from the "script" of the novels because it keeps things unpredictable. And I loved the blossoming of Sansa Stark. She's much more likable in the show because I don't have to listen to her facepalmingly naive and frequently self-absorbed internal monologues. The problem with this retooling of the death of Lysa Arryn, however, is that they punctured Littlefinger's aura. The one thing that defines him (aside from obsession with Catelyn Tully Stark) is that he's always, ALWAYS three moves ahead of everyone else and has everything meticulously planned. Littlefinger would never get himself in a situation where only providence ends up saving him, it's just too out of character.

That laugh of Arya's, though... priceless.

 

[Kenjitsuka]

"There is a bounty on his head, and Arya Stark's name is sure to demand they take her from his custody."
The bounty is from the Lannisters, who have no open friends there at all. So who cares? It only makes him MORE likeable, since the bounty is from their enemy... but they might expect him a spy. Except that he already gave his name from the start...


"Tyrion saves the beetle he picks up in his cell."
Actually it's a Woodlouse, (Oniscidea) which is a crustacian.
On the "dropped" cousin. I'd chalk it up to human baser instincts to kill animals for food, and sometimes hunt for sport.
Destruction is in man's nature too...

"(There's also a funny bit with Tywin cutting off the officious speech from Maester Pycelle.)"
Yeah, that made me lol! Maybe the old geezer will get revenge one day, but I hate him so nice to see him humiliated.

"The gruesomeness of Clegane popping open Oberyn's skull like a can of beer is possibly one of the most terrible things I've ever seen on TV."
Really? Nothing special imho... But without doubt it was AWESOME!!! The whole fight... and then his extremely sudden downfall so VERY fast. WHOA!!!! Definitely going to be talked about for a LONG time!

"I reminded her what will be happen politically now that the Prince of Dorne has been killed in the capitol."
He went there for revenge, *agreed* (very eagerly) to a one on one duel to the death and then his obsession made him careless and dead.
EVERYONE saw it happen. So what are they going to complain about? Not like it was an evil plot or poisoned sword.

That leaves me with your comment about what was being waxed on the spears... Intrigueing!

 

[Thunderous Cacophony]

I rewatched that scene couple times and I'm pretty sure he didn't. Oberyn was just kinda lying there. And this is the thing, no matter how arrogant or unfocused you are, the warrior of his level has to have this kind of thing trained to the reflex. Regrouping before falling is one the most basic things that every martial art teaches. Show just decided that Oberyn must die and that was it. He will forget the most basic thing and die. Period.
And no matter how freakish you are it is still bullshit. It is medieval heavy armor. That shit was so heavy that falling from your horse would basically pin knight to the ground, not being able to get up. Add to that multiple injuries, fatigue, bloodloss and poison and the only thing saving you would be writer's decision.

To me, it looks astoundingly quick. In the linked clip,
3:18- The Mountain knocks Oberyn's foot in the air. In a few milliseconds, he hits the ground hard.
3:19- He has his hand around the prince's head and has already lifted him from the ground
3:21- The fist connects and teeth go flying
3:24- The dazed prince is on the ground, and the mountain has climbed on top of him
3:25- The mountain has his thumbs in Oberyn's eyes, blinding him.

You are ascribing a supernatural level of speed and reaction time to Oberyn, when he has nothing of the sort; he's just a good fighter who got caught off guard. If he'd had a moment's piece, then sure, he may have been able to regroup. As it was, he didn't have that moment, and went from bragging about his victory to lying on the ground in the literal blink of an eye. You bring up martial arts several times, so I assume you are aware of how quickly the tables can turn. One misstep -in this case, getting too close to the Mountain- cascades into a horrific defeat.

Also, as Jet 1971 pointed out, the armour is not that heavy.

Spoiler: here's someone falling from a horse in full armour and bouncing back up.

[link]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMuNXWFPewg[/link]
and some links
[link]http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/medieval-knights-on-a-treadmill-put-historical-myths-to-the-test[/link]
[link]http://www.benjaminrose.com/post/mobility-in-medieval-plate-armor/[/link]

 

[Slycne]

It is medieval heavy armor. That shit was so heavy that falling from your horse would basically pin knight to the ground, not being able to get up.

If you're going to complain about how realistic a scene is it would help to not start with such fallacies in mind. The idea that knights were lumbering cumbersome oafs incapable of basically moving in their heavy plate is not historic at all.

For instance, watch this duel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyztjyKml3I

Neither are they slowed down all that much nor are either of them incapable of getting up of the ground.

 

[TiberiusEsuriens]

Then her maturation goes one step farther as she acknowledges Petyr's romantic interest in her. They share another look during a very pregnant pause.

I see what you did there