Game of Thrones Season 4 Ep 8 "The Mountain and the Viper" Review

[Grahav]

Bonus content, fan reactions.

The first guys must be from Iceland


At the Burlington Bar. Careful for those who are squeamish because the scene plays on the bottom.

Man, I wish I lived near there.


Book readers, trolls and sadists are like:

 

[lucky_sharm]

You guys are forgetting that Oberyn was surprised and thrown onto his back with no cushion onto a solid floor. He's stunned by having the wind knocked out of him. He did try to move away, but it took longer than the second it took the Mountain to grab his face and punch him in the mouth. The sequence sucked for the "good guys" sure, but it's not as implausible as you make it out to be.

Well, that is the thing. First of all, it is incredibly difficult to swipe someone's leg so hard that he would fall. But ok. Here comes the thing, even god damn figure skaters train themselves to regroup their body in such a way to minimize the damage. Martial arts have such a thing as "Ukemi". Basically why fighters are able to toss each other around without breaking skulls or bones. Warrior of Oberyn's level must have this kind of thing memorized to the level of reflex. And even if Mountain was able to grab him and somehow lift him up there was nothing preventing Oberyn from simply putting a palm in front of his face. You do not establish a character as a fighter genius and then make him forget the most basic things. This is my problem with the whole sequence. It felt forced. If Oberyn died during the duel, like a warrior then I wouldn't have problem with it. The Mountain is just a better warrior. But no, deus bullshit machina had to interfere. And it's even more jarring when you finally see The feared Mountain in battle. No skill, no grace, no tactics. Just a brute, a caricature and a slap to the face of the audience.

2 things.

1) Mountain's strong enough to smash a man in two, it's probably not that hard for him to swipe someone's legs from under them, and adding to that, Oberyn does not expect it at all. He's cocky and arrogant, and is honestly thinking he's won, so gets caught off guard and R_ekd, again, hammering home the idea that might is better than grace or morals.
2) the Mountain is a better warrior, it's been stated so many times in the books. Oberyn may be pretty, fast and have fancy gear, but he's still a hedonistic lordling.
Mountain's had non-stop fighting and killing for almost all of his life.
He's meant to be a brute, that's his characterisation. Big dumb muscle. The most important thing he's ever done is probably forcing his brother's face into the fire, sparking off Sandor's character development.

I wouldn't undersell the Red Viper, either, who himself was a legendary fighter in his own right. He wasn't even interested in killing the Mountain, only getting him to confess to his crime. If he were that focused on winning the fight then he would have done so easily, but that isn't a victory in his eyes.

 

[Grahav]

Thank you that helped me quite a lot . The last time I felt that way was when Bumblebee just tore Ravage appart in the Transformers movie. It was just a very sad feeling that something went south for a charackter I like.

[
One: HOLY CRAP HE'S HUGE! I knew the guy who played the Mountain was big, but! HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!

And two, there is something so awesome of Prince Obyern and the Mountain just chilling together in their swim trunks.

Personally I loved this episode and the fight scene specifically. But I did have one issue with a story that's going on, the Gray Worm/Missandei stuff. I don't mind giving those characters something to do besides jut be around Dany all the time, but this romance thing just sort of hits my suspension of disbelief a bit too hard.

Gray Worm is an attractive man and I Can see Missandei being attracted to him. And I can see him liking her and feeling closer to her than he feels to others. Its just the sexual tension they seem to be giving the two that is bothering me. Especially when he said he couldn't remember being cut, that really makes me nervous that they are going to reveal he's not so they can for a romance between the two.

Whenever the shows leaves you depressed, look for the cast.

They are very funny and silly people.

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/culture/game-of-thrones-instagrams

 

[StriderShinryu]

You guys are forgetting that Oberyn was surprised and thrown onto his back with no cushion onto a solid floor. He's stunned by having the wind knocked out of him. He did try to move away, but it took longer than the second it took the Mountain to grab his face and punch him in the mouth. The sequence sucked for the "good guys" sure, but it's not as implausible as you make it out to be.

Best not to pay people any mind. Few things bring out the armchair experts like a movie or TV fight scene. All of a sudden people who've never been in a fight and have probably never seen a real fight think they know everything there is about fighting.

I have to agree. If nothing else, it really just shows how great a job the show runners (and the actor) did with Oberyn. At this point everyone should know that no character in the series is going to be safe and yet obviously viewers still totally bonded with Oberyn regardless even to the point where they are trying to discredit the details of the fight scene in which he died.

 

[Mahorfeus]

Having essentially spoiled all of the books for myself, I saw Oberyn's death coming a mile away. And yet that scene... Jesus Christ, I actually lost sleep over it. It was just so brutal.

Also, the fancy spear work he did at the beginning of the fight actually kind of wowed me, granted, I haven't watched too many spear-wielding martial artists. Were those all actually done by his actor?

 

[themyrmidon]

I do not want to the takeaway from this post to be that I disliked this episode. It was in fact one of my favorites. That said, this thread is already a bitchfest, so who am I to go against this flow. Warning: book content, but probably not spoilers.

I was pissed about the changes that went down in the Vale involving Littlefinger meeting with the lords. I'm not normally a book-is-strictly-better person, but this scene was one I was looking forward to and they just dipped it in acid and dissolved it to the bone. Yes, it will still serve the story structure, but it lost all of it's meat. The scene as described in the ASoIaF Wiki:

"With Lysa dead, Petyr names himself Lord Protector of the Vale, with Robert Arryn as his ward. The most powerful lords of the Vale respond by joining together to demand that Petyr relinquish Robert. Lyn Corbray, however, behaves very belligerently during the parley, going so far as to draw his sword. This breach of hospitality gives Petyr the leverage to demand a trial period on his wardship over Robert. Petyr notes to Sansa how fortuitous Corbray's action was, and Sansa correctly guesses that Corbray must be on his payroll. Petyr confirms this, and confides in Sansa his plans to use this time to eliminate, win over, or marginalize the lords who stand in his path, and to allow Corbray to use his supposed disgust for him to facilitate his joining, and covertly informing on, any conspiracy against the Lord Protector." *continued in spoiler*

Spoiler

He also reveals his plans to help Sansa regain the North and marry her to the Arryn heir, Harrold Hardyng, while stating that

Spoiler

Cersei Lannister's leadership in King's Landing

is bringing the Seven Kingoms to ruin faster than he had anticipated.

The scene as written serves the purpose of showing that Sansa was figuring out to play the game, as she predicted the logic behind his moves, while also painting Littlefinger as an even more ambitious chessmaster. The scene in the show paints him as a fool that needed to be bailed out by someone that, to this point, has been an even bigger fool.

 

[FrozenCones]

The fight was so much better in the book...

The Mountain didn't even bring his god damn shield in the tv-series.

If I recall they both had shields in the fight. Oberyn had that small bronze buckler that had a high polish shine and Gregor had a big "fuck off" wooden one. My one gripe with that scene is it wasn't long enough. Oberyn basically danced around his blows until he started to tire then started getting small cuts in between the joints of his armour. I did want to see the stable boy getting 2 shot but I guess we cant have everything we want!

Now i'm going to stop sounding like a book purist asshole.

If anything the show lived up to the word in the book. Oberyn's head was described as "red ruin", so I guess that got that part right.

 

[J Tyran]

Here's the thing I've always felt about this fight (and it was perfectly done IMO) The Red Viper has absolutely no interest in winning. All he wants is the confession out of The Mountain and he'll do anything to get it. Honestly in the books it read to me as he could win at any point and it slowly dawns that he doesn't want that.

Spoiler

When you take into considerations the spear is laced with poison that makes you die a very slow and agonising death. I honestly think he always intended to loose but to rile the mountain up enough that he'd confess to his crimes for the world to see. So you can easily explain any lack of ability on his part on the end of just being happy he's got his confession.

One of the things I love about this scene(and this series contains many of my favorites form the books) is he's probably the first character to die who probably knows it's going to happen but has done it to get exactly what he wants and gets it.

I would agree,

Spoiler: Novel spoilers about the aftermath of the fight

Oberyn could have used a poison which would have quickly killed or incapacitated the Mountain but he used one that would take weeks to kill him and leave him conscious and in unimaginable pain, he either did it knowing he was going to lose or was careful enough to leave a contingency in case he lost. I think his Brother Doran may have realised what Oberyns plan was with the way he took his death, everyone else was furious but he seemed to know even telling the sand snakes "You cant tell me, no-one knew him as well as me!"

 

[shiajun]

I haven't read the books, I'm just following the show, but I'm actually starting to wonder if I can. It's all so exhausting. I'm getting flashbacks to the last seasons of Lost when nothing seemed to be adding up and you knew time was running out. Here, it's the feeling that there's no end-game at all in this narrative, and Martin seems to be almost making it up as he goes and that he has no idea what to do in the end. So, feeling like everything could keep spinning in tragedy for infinity is a little bit disheartening, specially when every character that actually has a concrete agenda and the means to put an end to some of the chaos gets butchered again and again. If I was reading the books (and they are freakishly long books) I would have given up by now.

Oberyn was great as character, and in the fight the spear handling brings a much needed diversity to the same old swordplay. I don't know what the aftermath will be, but I just hope Dorne allies itself with Daenerys (being a Targaryen and all that) and finally makes those almost separate chuncks of the story come together. Somewhere in the back of my mind I was facfictioning those two as a rocking King and Queen, dragons and spears and southern culture ruling the drabiness of much of Westeros.

 

[Branindain]

The problem with this retooling of the death of Lysa Arryn, however, is that they punctured Littlefinger's aura. The one thing that defines him (aside from obsession with Catelyn Tully Stark) is that he's always, ALWAYS three moves ahead of everyone else and has everything meticulously planned. Littlefinger would never get himself in a situation where only providence ends up saving him, it's just too out of character.

That laugh of Arya's, though... priceless.

I disagree, I think Littlefinger has been playing the long game with Sansa. Didn't Littlefinger even say "bet on the people you know rather than the people you don't," or something like that? That to me was as much a reveal that he acknowledges this plan is working. Also here is my in show evidence to prove why he thought this would work:

1) In general, Lord Baelish, believes the Starks are gullible and trusting. And he doubles down on this idea by telling them "Don't trust anyone," which is a way of saying "everyone else is a liar except me, I have your interest at heart."

2) He manufactured Lysa to be a villain in Sansa's eyes and set the wheels in motion to get Lysa to ride the banana train to crazy town. Lysa doesn't need much of a push, but her gets it working easily. While I don't believe he ever says it on screen, I wouldn't doubt off camera Baelish mentions to Lysa that Sansa is the spitting image of Kat. Even if he didn't Lysa comes to that conclusion. He always seems to show Sansa extra attention when Lysa is around. And icing on the cake he choose to kiss Sansa not in a private room away from prying eyes, but in an open courtyard with lots of places for someone to watch privately. So even if Lysa didn't see it, someone most likely would and tell Lysa.

3) After manufacturing and instigating Lysa v Sansa, Baelish is able to save Sansa for the second time.

4) Not only has Petyr saved Sansa's life twice now, he has avenged Sansa's harrasser, in so much as he was the one that put the wheels in motion to have Joffery killed, and straight up pushed Lysa to her death.

5) Not only has he been filling a Protector/Avenger role for Sansa, Baelish has also been a teacher. He has been leading her to a more savvy way of dealing with people. He has been explaining how he has done this or that to reach these goals to her. Been giving her constructive criticism in how she is a bad liar. He gave her baby steps on how to pretend to be Alayne.

6) Not only that, in this world, it is common knowledge that if you are related or in the service of a traitor, you are seen as one too, Sansa knows this first hand, I don't really think I need to elaborate on that if you know the show.

For these 6 reasons, Baelish has a pretty much sure bet that Sansa has more to gain if not less to lose by siding with him. He had this planned.

I don't disagree with your argument, but to sell tension to the audience they really made it look as though Baelish was at first nervous, then even resigned to his fate until Sansa stepped up to bat for him. I suppose they could just be saying that Littlefinger himself is a good actor, but then why does he even have to act that way? If he had looked more confident throughout I probably would have thought like you.

 

[Saviordd1]

I've seen a great deal of messed up stuff in movies and series over the years, most of it has made me uncomfortable at best.
This ending however... I'm not sure if it's because I have a thing when it comes to the eyes or how brutal it actually was, but I was totally out of it a few minutes after this, just looking around the room not knowing what the hell to do.
It's not that he died, kinda saw that coming, but not like that... not like that....
In my mind I were yelling "Stop it! Oh god for fuck sake just stop it!" But of course he kept on going.

Still can't shake that image out of my head. I'll have to hand it to them though, well done, well done. I guess I'm not completely desensitized quite yet, and I suppose that's a good thing.

I'm with you there. I knew it was coming, and I was still horrified beyond belief wanting it to stop.

For me it was more the screams that get to me.

Seeing the once "Cool as a glass of ice water" price screaming in agony just made my freaking spine shiver.

 

[bdcjacko]

The problem with this retooling of the death of Lysa Arryn, however, is that they punctured Littlefinger's aura. The one thing that defines him (aside from obsession with Catelyn Tully Stark) is that he's always, ALWAYS three moves ahead of everyone else and has everything meticulously planned. Littlefinger would never get himself in a situation where only providence ends up saving him, it's just too out of character.

That laugh of Arya's, though... priceless.

I disagree, I think Littlefinger has been playing the long game with Sansa. Didn't Littlefinger even say "bet on the people you know rather than the people you don't," or something like that? That to me was as much a reveal that he acknowledges this plan is working. Also here is my in show evidence to prove why he thought this would work:

1) In general, Lord Baelish, believes the Starks are gullible and trusting. And he doubles down on this idea by telling them "Don't trust anyone," which is a way of saying "everyone else is a liar except me, I have your interest at heart."

2) He manufactured Lysa to be a villain in Sansa's eyes and set the wheels in motion to get Lysa to ride the banana train to crazy town. Lysa doesn't need much of a push, but her gets it working easily. While I don't believe he ever says it on screen, I wouldn't doubt off camera Baelish mentions to Lysa that Sansa is the spitting image of Kat. Even if he didn't Lysa comes to that conclusion. He always seems to show Sansa extra attention when Lysa is around. And icing on the cake he choose to kiss Sansa not in a private room away from prying eyes, but in an open courtyard with lots of places for someone to watch privately. So even if Lysa didn't see it, someone most likely would and tell Lysa.

3) After manufacturing and instigating Lysa v Sansa, Baelish is able to save Sansa for the second time.

4) Not only has Petyr saved Sansa's life twice now, he has avenged Sansa's harrasser, in so much as he was the one that put the wheels in motion to have Joffery killed, and straight up pushed Lysa to her death.

5) Not only has he been filling a Protector/Avenger role for Sansa, Baelish has also been a teacher. He has been leading her to a more savvy way of dealing with people. He has been explaining how he has done this or that to reach these goals to her. Been giving her constructive criticism in how she is a bad liar. He gave her baby steps on how to pretend to be Alayne.

6) Not only that, in this world, it is common knowledge that if you are related or in the service of a traitor, you are seen as one too, Sansa knows this first hand, I don't really think I need to elaborate on that if you know the show.

For these 6 reasons, Baelish has a pretty much sure bet that Sansa has more to gain if not less to lose by siding with him. He had this planned.

I don't disagree with your argument, but to sell tension to the audience they really made it look as though Baelish was at first nervous, then even resigned to his fate until Sansa stepped up to bat for him. I suppose they could just be saying that Littlefinger himself is a good actor, but then why does he even have to act that way? If he had looked more confident throughout I probably would have thought like you.

He wasn't sure how well Sansa would do without prep. Also Baelish, up until this point, has never personally had his ass on the line. This is the first time he wasn't pulling strings from a distance.

 

[Rattja]

I've seen a great deal of messed up stuff in movies and series over the years, most of it has made me uncomfortable at best.
This ending however... I'm not sure if it's because I have a thing when it comes to the eyes or how brutal it actually was, but I was totally out of it a few minutes after this, just looking around the room not knowing what the hell to do.
It's not that he died, kinda saw that coming, but not like that... not like that....
In my mind I were yelling "Stop it! Oh god for fuck sake just stop it!" But of course he kept on going.

Still can't shake that image out of my head. I'll have to hand it to them though, well done, well done. I guess I'm not completely desensitized quite yet, and I suppose that's a good thing.

Hey Rattja. I hope this helps:

Just buddies pretending horror.

Hehe, well not really.. You just had to pick one with him wearing glasses so I can't see that his eyes are okey =p So cruel.

 

[Monsterfurby]

Like one very smart poster on imdb said:

But you believe in dragons?

This is actually a sentiment that I really dislike. Fantasy is not a blank check that makes everything innately believable. A good piece of fantasy needs to craft its world, magic, dragons, etc so that you believe they could be real in that world.

Fantasy is exactly that (a blank check), what you describe is storytelling - and that's important in any work of fiction.

Science Fiction is the genre that requires plausible explanations - Fantasy CAN handwave things with "it's magic"/"it just is this way".

 

[katsabas]

I kept yelling at the screen 'finish him, finish him, stop standing at arms' length and FINISH HIM!'. And then teeth started flying. From what I have red, this is where non-readers have an advantage cause a lot of comments are along the lines of 'it was horrible in the book, I knew it was coming and it was even worse seeing it'.

Lucky us...

 

[NortherWolf]

Like one very smart poster on imdb said:

But you believe in dragons?

This is actually a sentiment that I really dislike. Fantasy is not a blank check that makes everything innately believable. A good piece of fantasy needs to craft its world, magic, dragons, etc so that you believe they could be real in that world.

Fantasy is exactly that (a blank check), what you describe is storytelling - and that's important in any work of fiction.

Science Fiction is the genre that requires plausible explanations - Fantasy CAN handwave things with "it's magic"/"it just is this way".

Actually, that's bullshit ^^.
For example, if we see a human in a fantasy setting, we will assume that he/she is indeed a normal human. Stab it and it dies.
If in the next episode of GoT Arya turned into a mech, or Theon starts shooting laser out of his eyes I am pretty sure everyone would stop and call BS because...Fantasy actually follows some logic as established by the common sense.

I just wish this fantasy-trend would die and let more genuinely good sci fi take to the forefront.

 

[Monsterfurby]

Like one very smart poster on imdb said:

But you believe in dragons?

This is actually a sentiment that I really dislike. Fantasy is not a blank check that makes everything innately believable. A good piece of fantasy needs to craft its world, magic, dragons, etc so that you believe they could be real in that world.

Fantasy is exactly that (a blank check), what you describe is storytelling - and that's important in any work of fiction.

Science Fiction is the genre that requires plausible explanations - Fantasy CAN handwave things with "it's magic"/"it just is this way".

Actually, that's bullshit ^^.
For example, if we see a human in a fantasy setting, we will assume that he/she is indeed a normal human. Stab it and it dies.
If in the next episode of GoT Arya turned into a mech, or Theon starts shooting laser out of his eyes I am pretty sure everyone would stop and call BS because...Fantasy actually follows some logic as established by the common sense.

I just wish this fantasy-trend would die and let more genuinely good sci fi take to the forefront.

Again, that's just basic consistent writing. It is has been established that humans can turn into a mech - something that does not have to be explained in fantasy, it just has to be established - it's acceptable. See for example GRRM's use of seasons in A Song of Ice and Fire / Game of Thrones, or the nature of Evil and/or Magic in Lord of the Rings. Even though Tolkien creates a massive backstory (=establishing things), the explanation ultimately is "it's magic" (=fantasy worldbuilding).

 

[Grahav]

I've seen a great deal of messed up stuff in movies and series over the years, most of it has made me uncomfortable at best.
This ending however... I'm not sure if it's because I have a thing when it comes to the eyes or how brutal it actually was, but I was totally out of it a few minutes after this, just looking around the room not knowing what the hell to do.
It's not that he died, kinda saw that coming, but not like that... not like that....
In my mind I were yelling "Stop it! Oh god for fuck sake just stop it!" But of course he kept on going.

Still can't shake that image out of my head. I'll have to hand it to them though, well done, well done. I guess I'm not completely desensitized quite yet, and I suppose that's a good thing.

Hey Rattja. I hope this helps:

Just buddies pretending horror.

Hehe, well not really.. You just had to pick one with him wearing glasses so I can't see that his eyes are okey =p So cruel.

Hmm... Well, but his head is in intact, he is smiling instead of screaming, he is LOOKING at the camera and the mountain actor is not crippled. All fine in my opinion