Game of Thrones Season 7 discussion thread. (SPOILERS ABOUND)

[balladbird]

5. Jon's stubbornness to concede to Dany's demands reek of plot contrivance. "Nothing is more important than uniting against the White Walkers! Nothing!". "I'm in, just bend the knee." "Oh well, absolutely not."

I agree with most of your cons, but I feel like Jon holding out on this one is a good approach. The Northern lords would probably revolt at the concept of serving a Targaryian, doubly so when they've shed so much blood over the ideal of being an independent nation. Kind of ironic. In the books, Dany learns not to expect everything to be handed to her because that's what her brother did and look where that got him. In the show, she's acting exactly the way her brother would, (IE, going I'm a Targaryian, therefore I am entitled to loyalty from people I have never met in my life when I have done nothing to earn it) just with some patience.

Not only that, the Wildlings regard him as a king solely because they respect him. If he bent the knee to someone the wildings didn't know, they wouldn't necessarily follow along with him, and he would run the risk of splintering the north if he capitulated to Dany.

That's one of the things this season that does make some sense, although I agree it's strange Jon didn't at least offer to bend the knee after the white walkers were taken. He claims he doesn't want to be king, but he does seem awful fond of the title

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Come to think of it, I have to ask...with dragons being weapons of war in the world for over 300 years, did no-one think until now to deploy a ballista? I ask because the implication I got is that it was a new weapon created by Cersei's maester (forget his name).

In the books, it's very old knowledge. One of the original Aegon's dragons got killed by a ballista while trying to invade Dorne, but it was a lucky shot to the eye.

I suspect Qyburn is not saying "here, look at this ballista I invented," and more "here, look at this ballista I ordered a ton of people to start making because I heard they can kill dragons." But that scene is problematic anyway; for one thing, a three-hundred-year-old skull is a lot easier to crack than that of a living dragon covered in scales and muscle. Qyburn's little demonstration did nothing but make Cersei overconfident in her ability to down a dragon; as we see in the latest episode, not only can Drogon dodge the ballista bolts, but even if you hit him with one he's more "wounded" than "dead," and a wounded dragon on the ground is still a plane-sized tank that breathes fire.

You'd need dozens of those scorpions, fully manned, to properly ward off a dragon attack. For a place like King's Landing, that's certainly doable. But for an army in the field...well, it's improbable that Bronn was even able to deploy the ballista by himself, much less fire it. It required an entirely-unnecessary collapsing wagon setup that served no purpose except to look cool.

Overall, it was just another case of the showrunners deciding they had to unrealistically buff up Cersei's capabilities to maintain dramatic tension.

That's one of the things this season that does make some sense, although I agree it's strange Jon didn't at least offer to bend the knee after the white walkers were taken. He claims he doesn't want to be king, but he does seem awful fond of the title

I think it's because he has a very personal and intimate knowledge of what happens when a commander makes pragmatic decisions that nevertheless enrage his subjects.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

Hmmm, episode 4. Lots of faffing about with plenty of 'look how awesome this character is now' and 'hey, remember this plot device/character?' fan-service. And then, 15 minutes of dragon mayhem.

We already got a little preview at the end of the last season in Mereen, but it felt a little weedy. 3 dragons taking their sweet time burning a single ship? Doesn't seem all that much of a gamechanger. But this? Ok, the Lannister force was only a (sizeable) caravan escort rather than a proper army. The ballista got in one minor hit before getting annihilated, the rest of them had no recourse whatsoever. It showed how pants-wetting terrifying a dragon attack can be.

 

[DrownedAmmet]

OH COME ON THRONES!!!!

God I was worried about this kind of garbage happening once RR's books were out of the picture.

You get plot armor and you get plot armor and you get plot armor! EVERYBODY GETS PLOT AAAARMOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRR!!!!!!

And not only that but they didn't even have the balls to show that he survived and left it on a cliffhanger like that. I expect that BS out of soap operas, not a show like Thrones.

Tell you what Thrones, if Jaime ends up being dead, I'll take back everything bad I said in this post. I know you're going to disappoint me here but I really do hope you don't...

I don't get this. GoT isn't afraid to kill major characters in grusome ways, but characters have survived near death experiences before - Davos and Tyrion at the Blackwater, Arya survives being stabbed in the stomach, Sandor Clegane survives his fall, Jon and Gregor are literally brought back from (near) death, etc. Jaime surviving Drogon wouldn't be out of the blue, all things considered.

I think this season is just irking me so I'm being extra harsh on it because you're right, Thrones has pulled this kind of ish before. I swear every damn episode has some kind of BS in it where previous seasons usually only had like...one or two BS's (BSs? BS? What is plural BS?) that just bugs the shit out of me.

All well, I will stick with it because of course I will (the episodes have still been very good but this little stuff is starting to grate on me). I'll just complain

It's B's S, short for Bulls's shit

I agree tho that I think a character death would have livened the episode up a bit, I fully expected Dickon to get his ass burnt, or maybe even Bronn

Im glad we finally got to see Dany be effective for once, though it was a bit too late. If she and her dragon and Dothraki hoard could get to Highgarden that fast surely the Tyrells could have held out for that long. They could have gave Dany an interesting choice there, trap Grey Worm and the Unsullied at Casterly Rock, trap Olena at Highgarden and make it known that Dany has to choose which one to save. Will she save the Tyrells because of their bigger army and supplies, or her friend Grey Worm and the slaves she freed.
Eh, the episode was still pretty good. The Winterfell stuff was boring but at least it put Dany in the right direction. It ended rather abruptly though

 

[DrownedAmmet]

Also, is there a reason why nobody has brought up marriage between Jon and Dany? Seems like an obvious solution, they are both young and single and both want Cersei off the throne, why hasn't Davos or Tyrion or anyone brought that up?

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Also, is there a reason why nobody has brought up marriage between Jon and Dany? Seems like an obvious solution, they are both young and single and both want Cersei off the throne, why hasn't Davos or Tyrion or anyone brought that up?

Spoiler

They have sex in the final episode, I read the leaks, rushed romance is rushed, its Jack and Ashi all over again

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

Spoiler

They have sex in the final episode, I read the leaks, rushed romance is rushed, its Jack and Ashi all over again

Spoiler

Yay for unwitting incest!

Unless Bran tips off Jon. Spoilsport brat!

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Spoiler

They have sex in the final episode, I read the leaks, rushed romance is rushed, its Jack and Ashi all over again

Spoiler

Yay for unwitting incest!

Unless Bran tips off Jon. Spoilsport brat!

Spoiler

Samwell in the Citadel also finds out about Jon through apperently letters or notes written by Rheagar proving he married Lyanna and conceived a child. And he ends up with Bran and both piece together the clues to prove that Jon is not a Bastard, and that his real name is Aegon, in the show at least no idea if that is gonna be his name in the books. But Jon does not find out yet and apperently their sex scene will happen at the sametime Bran and Sam are pieceing the clues together, so yeah weird.

 

[Terminal Blue]

I don't get this. GoT isn't afraid to kill major characters in grusome ways, but characters have survived near death experiences before - Davos and Tyrion at the Blackwater, Arya survives being stabbed in the stomach, Sandor Clegane survives his fall, Jon and Gregor are literally brought back from (near) death, etc. Jaime surviving Drogon wouldn't be out of the blue, all things considered.

I wouldn't say "major" characters die very often. I mean, Eddard sure, and Rob Stark arguably was a major in the show.. But really, for all that people talk about GRRM killing off characters, the lengths the plot goes to to keep some of them alive is pretty ludicrous. In this sense, the show is pretty accurate to the books.

Also, I'm pretty sure Jaime can't die yet for destiny related reasons..

If you think about it, Battlestar Galactica was way more ruthless with its characters. It just didn't signpost it so much. I mean, that show had literal fucking God in it and didn't pull as much divine intervention to save important people as ASOIAF or thrones.

Spoiler

Samwell in the Citadel also finds out about Jon through apperently letters or notes written by Rheagar proving he married Lyanna and conceived a child. And he ends up with Bran and both piece together the clues to prove that Jon is not a Bastard, and that his real name is Aegon, in the show at least no idea if that is gonna be his name in the books. But Jon does not find out yet and apperently their sex scene will happen at the sametime Bran and Sam are pieceing the clues together, so yeah weird

Spoiler

If this is followed by a scene of Bran busting in on them in his kickass medieval wheelchair and screaming "bish, she's your aunt" all will be forgiven.

Fuck it, stick scythes on the wheels of that thing and have Bran mow down the army of the dead like a handi-capable boss and I'll give free blowjobs/cunnilingus/whatever to the writing staff.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Also, is there a reason why nobody has brought up marriage between Jon and Dany? Seems like an obvious solution, they are both young and single and both want Cersei off the throne, why hasn't Davos or Tyrion or anyone brought that up?

Because neither one is interested in a wedding? Jon obviously feels that he has to save all of Westeros from the White Walkers, which means that bumping uglies and producing babies has to hold off until after eternal winter is averted. Dany, meanwhile, considers herself superior to Jon in just about every aspect applicable. He's a bastard that has made an illegitimate claim to a title that should rightfully be hers, and she's being merciful by giving him a chance to pledge allegiance instead of outright killing him as a traitor and rebel.

I mean, I think we all see their union coming, but D&D hasn't rushed it yet and they are actually seeding it properly, albeit heavy-handedly, by giving them scenes were they express their admiration/interest in the other and scenes together where they are supposed to build their relationship.

 

[DrownedAmmet]

Also, is there a reason why nobody has brought up marriage between Jon and Dany? Seems like an obvious solution, they are both young and single and both want Cersei off the throne, why hasn't Davos or Tyrion or anyone brought that up?

Because neither one is interested in a wedding? Jon obviously feels that he has to save all of Westeros from the White Walkers, which means that bumping uglies and producing babies has to hold off until after eternal winter is averted. Dany, meanwhile, considers herself superior to Jon in just about every aspect applicable. He's a bastard that has made an illegitimate claim to a title that should rightfully be hers, and she's being merciful by giving him a chance to pledge allegiance instead of outright killing him as a traitor and rebel.

I mean, I think we all see their union coming, but D&D hasn't rushed it yet and they are actually seeding it properly, albeit heavy-handedly, by giving them scenes were they express their admiration/interest in the other and scenes together where they are supposed to build their relationship.

They should be. Or at least their advisors should be. It is the easiest and least bloody way for them to both get what they want. Dany wants Westeros, marrying Jon gets her half of it. Jon wants a unified Westeros to fight the White Walkers, marrying Dany and helping her defeat Cersei gets him that
It's not like there are other political matches for either of them out there anymore, everyone is dead

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Because neither one is interested in a wedding? Jon obviously feels that he has to save all of Westeros from the White Walkers, which means that bumping uglies and producing babies has to hold off until after eternal winter is averted. Dany, meanwhile, considers herself superior to Jon in just about every aspect applicable. He's a bastard that has made an illegitimate claim to a title that should rightfully be hers, and she's being merciful by giving him a chance to pledge allegiance instead of outright killing him as a traitor and rebel.

It's an absurdly obvious solution to their current political predicament. Daenaerys insists on fealty because she basically doesn't respect Jon enough to trust him and is in full Queen Mode. Jon insists on independence because if he swears fealty, there is a very real chance that he might be ousted by the Northern lords and replaced with Sansa, who has a stronger claim than he does and who is being groomed by Littlefinger to do exactly that.

Marriage means that Jon wins the dragons and retains his crown, Daenaerys wins the North and retains her sense of superiority, and the North is placated by the knowledge that the ruling dynasty will have Stark blood and that there's still a King in the North.

I'm honestly surprised Tyrion hasn't mentioned it. It's exactly the kind of thing he'd suggest in order to bridge the impasse. Isn't it exactly what Daenaerys did in season five?

I mean, I think we all see their union coming, but D&D hasn't rushed it yet and they are actually seeding it properly, albeit heavy-handedly, by giving them scenes were they express their admiration/interest in the other and scenes together where they are supposed to build their relationship.

My main criticism is that they have zero fucking chemistry. It's just bad luck that the actors can't muster up more passion for each other. I know they'll end up together and obviously the groundwork is being laid for that, but they're so cold to each other that I'd actually prefer it if they had an initially-loveless arranged marriage and then just learned to deal with it over time like Ned and Catelyn did.

Christ, Kit Harrington had better chemisty with Sophie fucking Turner, and that's all kinds of weird.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Because neither one is interested in a wedding? Jon obviously feels that he has to save all of Westeros from the White Walkers, which means that bumping uglies and producing babies has to hold off until after eternal winter is averted. Dany, meanwhile, considers herself superior to Jon in just about every aspect applicable. He's a bastard that has made an illegitimate claim to a title that should rightfully be hers, and she's being merciful by giving him a chance to pledge allegiance instead of outright killing him as a traitor and rebel.

It's an absurdly obvious solution to their current political predicament. Daenaerys insists on fealty because she basically doesn't respect Jon enough to trust him and is in full Queen Mode. Jon insists on independence because if he swears fealty, there is a very real chance that he might be ousted by the Northern lords and replaced with Sansa, who has a stronger claim than he does and who is being groomed by Littlefinger to do exactly that.

Marriage means that Jon wins the dragons and retains his crown, Daenaerys wins the North and retains her sense of superiority, and the North is placated by the knowledge that the ruling dynasty will have Stark blood and that there's still a King in the North.

I'm honestly surprised Tyrion hasn't mentioned it. It's exactly the kind of thing he'd suggest in order to bridge the impasse. Isn't it exactly what Daenaerys did in season five?

I mean, I think we all see their union coming, but D&D hasn't rushed it yet and they are actually seeding it properly, albeit heavy-handedly, by giving them scenes were they express their admiration/interest in the other and scenes together where they are supposed to build their relationship.

My main criticism is that they have zero fucking chemistry. It's just bad luck that the actors can't muster up more passion for each other. I know they'll end up together and obviously the groundwork is being laid for that, but they're so cold to each other that I'd actually prefer it if they had an initially-loveless arranged marriage and then just learned to deal with it over time like Ned and Catelyn did.

Christ, Kit Harrington had better chemisty with Sophie fucking Turner, and that's all kinds of weird.

To be fair the lack of chemistry between Jon and Dany at this point is because frankly Jon does not truly know her. He only just met her and you expect him to act warm with her immidietly? Compared to his sisters (As far as he knows) who has been with him since childhood?

And Jon still has Ice Liches and Zombies to focus on.

 

[wizzy555]

To be fair the lack of chemistry between Jon and Dany at this point is because frankly Jon does not truly know her. He only just met her and you expect him to act warm with her immidietly? Compared to his sisters (As far as he knows) who has been with him since childhood?

And Jon still has Ice Liches and Zombies to focus on.

Frankly I think it comes down to Jon being a moron, he isn't a clever or charismatic man, he's an honest and skilled boyscout. He isn't Dany's type.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

To be fair the lack of chemistry between Jon and Dany at this point is because frankly Jon does not truly know her. He only just met her and you expect him to act warm with her immidietly? Compared to his sisters (As far as he knows) who has been with him since childhood?

And Jon still has Ice Liches and Zombies to focus on.

He didn't know Ygritte that well either. Didn't stop the two of them from flirting up a storm.

Like I said, I'd prefer it if the show went the unconventional route and had them marry out of pragmatic political reasons rather than "OH SUDDENLY I AM IN LOVE WITH THIS OTHER PROTAGONIST".

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

To be fair the lack of chemistry between Jon and Dany at this point is because frankly Jon does not truly know her. He only just met her and you expect him to act warm with her immidietly? Compared to his sisters (As far as he knows) who has been with him since childhood?

And Jon still has Ice Liches and Zombies to focus on.

He didn't know Ygritte that well either. Didn't stop the two of them from flirting up a storm.

Like I said, I'd prefer it if the show went the unconventional route and had them marry out of pragmatic political reasons rather than "OH SUDDENLY I AM IN LOVE WITH THIS OTHER PROTAGONIST".

Because he was a horny teenager back than, now he's a man, and have you forgotten his relationship with Ygritte soured, I mean he killed her. I think that would put a stop to him trying to have a new relationship.

 

[Remus]

To be fair the lack of chemistry between Jon and Dany at this point is because frankly Jon does not truly know her. He only just met her and you expect him to act warm with her immidietly? Compared to his sisters (As far as he knows) who has been with him since childhood?

And Jon still has Ice Liches and Zombies to focus on.

He didn't know Ygritte that well either. Didn't stop the two of them from flirting up a storm.

Like I said, I'd prefer it if the show went the unconventional route and had them marry out of pragmatic political reasons rather than "OH SUDDENLY I AM IN LOVE WITH THIS OTHER PROTAGONIST".

Because he was a horny teenager back than, now he's a man, and have you forgotten his relationship with Ygritte soured, I mean he killed her. I think that would put a stop to him trying to have a new relationship.

Technically he didn't kill her. That dick Olly did. Little bastard was all full of hate since his parents died. Sucks that Jon had to hang him but the kid did stab Jon in the chest, so they're even.

I'm still trying to figure out what kind of leader Jon's really gonna be. He could temper Dany's fire or perhaps redirect it like he did this ep. He's got a lot of Ned's "honor in all things" attitude but not so much that it might end him. He's been under enough smart leaders to not let that side rule him always. Plus he has two sisters more than willing to do the bad things he won't so there is balance in keeping the pack close. And an omniscient little brother who could be an awesome spymaster if he ever gets a grip on his abilities.

 

[Remus]

Because neither one is interested in a wedding? Jon obviously feels that he has to save all of Westeros from the White Walkers, which means that bumping uglies and producing babies has to hold off until after eternal winter is averted. Dany, meanwhile, considers herself superior to Jon in just about every aspect applicable. He's a bastard that has made an illegitimate claim to a title that should rightfully be hers, and she's being merciful by giving him a chance to pledge allegiance instead of outright killing him as a traitor and rebel.

It's an absurdly obvious solution to their current political predicament. Daenaerys insists on fealty because she basically doesn't respect Jon enough to trust him and is in full Queen Mode. Jon insists on independence because if he swears fealty, there is a very real chance that he might be ousted by the Northern lords and replaced with Sansa, who has a stronger claim than he does and who is being groomed by Littlefinger to do exactly that.

Marriage means that Jon wins the dragons and retains his crown, Daenaerys wins the North and retains her sense of superiority, and the North is placated by the knowledge that the ruling dynasty will have Stark blood and that there's still a King in the North.

I'm honestly surprised Tyrion hasn't mentioned it. It's exactly the kind of thing he'd suggest in order to bridge the impasse. Isn't it exactly what Daenaerys did in season five?

I mean, I think we all see their union coming, but D&D hasn't rushed it yet and they are actually seeding it properly, albeit heavy-handedly, by giving them scenes were they express their admiration/interest in the other and scenes together where they are supposed to build their relationship.

My main criticism is that they have zero fucking chemistry. It's just bad luck that the actors can't muster up more passion for each other. I know they'll end up together and obviously the groundwork is being laid for that, but they're so cold to each other that I'd actually prefer it if they had an initially-loveless arranged marriage and then just learned to deal with it over time like Ned and Catelyn did.

Christ, Kit Harrington had better chemisty with Sophie fucking Turner, and that's all kinds of weird.

Well, in the show they're technically cousins, not siblings even though they were raised as such. But the chemistry stems from comfort being around each other, a willingness to actually argue and debate things rather than deal in absolutes. Something siblings should be able to do.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

An hour left till showtime.

And lets just things are truly gonna start moving forward.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Spoiler

Jeez this is getting way to fanficcy I mean its like they are making Gendry another Robert,
I mean neither Stannis or Renly were anything like Robert