Game of Thrones - Well, Stannis fans, what do you think of him NOW? (Spoilers)

[thejboy88]

Among many GOT fans, there was this massive belief that Stannis was the one true king of Westeros, that he had the blood right and the best head on his shoulders for ruling the place. Never mind how harsh and unfriendly the man seemed to be, people generally appeared to get behind him, and for the most part, I was fine with that.

But then episode "Dance with Dragons" happened, and any sympathy I might have had for the man vanished immediately. To all people who still like this guy and think he should be king, please remember...HE JUST ALLOWED HIS OWN DAUGHTER TO BE BURNED ALIVE!!!

This was not someone who had ever done wrong. Not someone who was ever a challenge to him like Renly was. It was his own child, someone he stated outright that he cared about, and yet, he still stood by and allowed her to die in the name of his cause. The iron Throne, and ruling Westeros, are so important to him, that even his children are something he'd be willing to sacrifice to achieve it.

Now, you can make whatever arguments you like. You can say "he was justified because he needed the power to win", or that "he had to help his army because they'd die otherwise", but I'm sorry, there are some things you simply do not do, some liens you just don't cross, and this was most definitely one of them. No matter what happens, you do not murder innocent children, especially your OWN children, just so you can sit on the world's spikiest chair.

If you still support the guy, then frankly, I just give up on you. Because as far as I'm concerned, he doesn't deserve to rule. Hell, catch me at my most angry, and I'll tell you flat-out that he doesn't even deserve to LIVE anymore.

 

[Terminal Blue]

This did not happen (or will EVER happen) in the books, seems to me the writers cause him to "rape the dog" to make Dany look better.

Well, now we can talk without spoiler tags..

The second time we see Stannis in the books (early in book two) is when Melisandre proclaims him Azor Ahai reborn and he draws lightbringer from the flames. Almost immediately Davos meets Salladhor Saan who explains to him the story of lightbringer's forging. Lightbringer was forged through Azor Ahai's sacrifice of his wife (i.e. the thing he loved most in the world). The wording of the story is very specific, in fact, in that her soul is literally what gave the blade its strength. Sahn ends the story by specifically telling Davos to be glad that Stannis "lightbringer" is not the real one. Because IF IT WAS THAT MIGHT MEAN THIS STORY I'VE BEEN TELLING WOULD BE IMPORTANT! WAS I BEING TOO SUBTLE?

This is foreshadowing. It's the establishing shot of the gun hanging on the wall. We've seen the "hero reborn" trope a thousand times in fantasy, and we know enough to know what it means, that a person's life will follow the mythic structure laid down by their predecessor. If Stannis is following the path of Azor Ahai (even if he is not actually Azor Ahai reborn) then he must sacrifice the thing he loves most in the world in order to save the world itself. That is the arc of the prophecy to which his whole story has been responding, and it was introduced to us at basically the same time he was.

So yeah, either this is deliberate, or it's a red herring (which would be cool, but a red herring nonetheless requires the recognition of a potential plot point as a possibility) or it's bad, sloppy writing. I may not think GRRM is the titanic God of literature some people do, but he isn't a bad writer. He has shown an extensive understanding of the conventions of dramatic storytelling, and a willingness to subvert them by making them incredibly uncomfortable or morally compromised in reality. Having Stannis willingly sacrifice Shireen is totally congruous with GRRM's writing and with Stannis' arc so far. In fact, it makes more sense as the logical fulfilment of Stannis' arc in the books than it does in the TV show, where it kind of came out of nowhere (even if it was a powerful scene).

Of course, the danger of writing a subversive take on the "chosen one" narrative is that a lot of readers might develop some pavlovian attachment to a character and come to believe they're more special and admirable than they are simply because they've been coded as "the hero".

Incidentally, did you notice that both Jon and Dany (the other potential candidates for Azor Ahai reborn) have both in some sense sacrificed the person they loved most in the world?

 

[Win32error]

I can see the shark jumping complaints coming up already.

This did not happen (or will EVER happen) in the books, seems to me the writers cause him to "rape the dog" to make Dany look better.

The show was already shit with all the stupid changes but this shows the writers hve zero sense what the characters represent or shades of grey instead of black and white.

According to the writers of the show, GRRM actually told them to do it. It may very well happen in the books in some way. Let's not forget that Stannis had never had a problem with burning family (His brother in law on dragonstone and attempted gendry) alive before, so it's not a stretch he'd do this if pushed far enough. In his mind, she's going to die anyway if they fail to defeat the boltons. He's actually a pretty black and white guy, as far as the story goes.

I'll agree that there was a lot of bad writing this season, Jaime and Bronn's mission especially was just dumb. They needed to get him in Dorne, give us some reason to care about what happens there, but it was probably the most ridiculous event in the entire show so far. Stannis' decision makes a whole lot of sense imho.

 

[Smooth Operator]

"OMG not like the books!" ... how many times do the writer/producers need to explain TV GoT is not the same story line as book GoT. Get it through your thick skulls already.

As for Stannis (TV version anyway), ever since he signed up with the fire witch he has never backed down from the push to power, no matter what deal no matter what sacrifice he always said yes. And I haven't seen a particularly strong inclination toward his family either, at best they are dragged around as an obligational nuisance.
As I see it they wanted to portray a man hell bent on getting that throne and this is just another step, it was a really nasty step but I doubt it will be the last one, honestly if he were to offer his wife to the troops for a morale boost it would still make sense.
But considering the reliability of that fire witch I'm not sure why they burned the kid, the only time that lady could make anything happen was by humping and giving birth to a shadow baby assassin, everything else she was selling was plain hogwash, so I really don't see where this is going.

 

[Zeljkia the Orc]

I can see the shark jumping complaints coming up already.

This did not happen (or will EVER happen) in the books, seems to me the writers cause him to "rape the dog" to make Dany look better.

The show was already shit with all the stupid changes but this shows the writers hve zero sense what the characters represent or shades of grey instead of black and white.

Pretty sure somewhere GRRM and HBO said the show is different than the books. Oficially I mean.

So I dont know about you, but I like having two different versions of ASoIaF.

 

[gigastar]

Ok so was there any particular biuldup to that event? Or was it just the same rattling Meli and Stan have been perpetuating about having a royal blooded sacrifice for seemingly all purposes?

 

[Silence]

I'm pretty sure Shireen dies this way in the books too, after watching the "Inside the episode".

Only hope is that Melisandre does it without his knowledge/approval.

Aside from that: It's quite in character, really.


Oh and Dorne plot: OF COURSE it got shit because they cut the single most important character in this storyline. I didn't understand it before, now I understand it even less.
Arianne, one of the best characters.

 

[Simskiller]

"OMG not like the books!" ... how many times do the writer/producers need to explain TV GoT is not the same story line as book GoT. Get it through your thick skulls already.

As for Stannis (TV version anyway), ever since he signed up with the fire witch he has never backed down from the push to power, no matter what deal no matter what sacrifice he always said yes. And I haven't seen a particularly strong inclination toward his family either, at best they are dragged around as an obligational nuisance.
As I see it they wanted to portray a man hell bent on getting that throne and this is just another step, it was a really nasty step but I doubt it will be the last one, honestly if he were to offer his wife to the troops for a morale boost it would still make sense.
But considering the reliability of that fire witch I'm not sure why they burned the kid, the only time that lady could make anything happen was by humping and giving birth to a shadow baby assassin, everything else she was selling was plain hogwash, so I really don't see where this is going.

Well do remember, when they used Gendry's blood 3 kings died.

 

[KingOfWesteros659]

I agree with the fact that producers made that just to make Daenerys look better. Well, i can say only one. Stannis is still the man!

 

[lacktheknack]

According to the writers of the show, GRRM actually told them to do it. It may very well happen in the books in some way.

Now HERE'S some intrigue I can get behind.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Also, John and Dany did not sacrifice anyone they cared for, Drogo was dying (if not already dead), John simply left the wildling rather than murder them (not a sacrifice), the biggest sacrifice he had is not fighting with Rob, but it can hardly be named a sacrifice.

Drogo wasn't dead or dying, merely incapable of speech or independent movement. She smothered him with a pillow. Seriously, her dragons were born in his funeral pyre, how much more literal does it need to be?

"They are mine" she said fiercely. They had been born from her faith and her need, given life by the deahs of her husband and unborn son and the maegi Mirri Maz Duur."

Jon's entire narrative is essentially a sequence of symbolic sacrifices, because the nights watch oath is a sacrifice. Ygritte is the most obvious direct example though, because she genuinely offers the possibility of something approaching a normal life.. until Jon betrays her and she is killed.

Sacrifice doesn't imply murder. Sacrifice implies sacrifice.

 

[Beliyal]

According to the writers of the show, GRRM actually told them to do it. It may very well happen in the books in some way.

I'm pretty sure Shireen dies this way in the books too, after watching the "Inside the episode".

I'd just like to address this.

Shireen may as well die in the books too... But absolutely not in the same way and absolutely not with Stannis' approval. In the books, Stannis is near Winterfell, preparing for battle. Shireen is in Castle Black with Selyse, Melisandre and some of Stannis' men. So he cannot be there to authorize anything. He even forbids burning some of his soldiers who are not believers in R'hllor. In one of the TWOW sample chapter, Stannis orders his men that, if he dies in the upcoming battle, they swear their fealty to Shireen Baratheon and work on putting her on the iron throne (he sends one of his men to Braavos to negotiate with the Iron Bank and to buy thousands of sellswords as soldiers; he says that in the even of his death, this mission is still to be carried out and Shireen to be placed on the throne as his heir and the last true born Baratheon).

So no. Stannis will not allow for his daughter to be burned in the books. His intention is a 100% stated and clear: Shireen is his heir and will sit the iron throne if he dies. Is it still going to happen? Perhaps. In what way, how exactly? We don't know. But it won't be with Stannis' blessing. Spoilers for the books:

Spoiler

The possible theory is that Melisandre will sacrifice Shireen to resurrect Jon. This would, of course, be without Stannis' knowledge or approval, because Stannis would never sacrifice his only heir for some Night's Watch bastard.

This what happened in the show is not very good. It took Stannis a feeble attack on the camp (attack that we don't even get to see properly, we just have to roll with it) to agree to sacrifice his only child and heir, a child we were shown he went to great lengths to save from greyscale. And for what was the sacrifice exactly? For some sunny weather? Stannis survived the siege of Storm's End by eating rats and glue from book bindings (show canon), that's how much resolve he has and how resourceful he is and how stubborn. But a few days of rough snow and he's off to sacrifice his beloved child. Right.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Stannis burning Shireen isn't really off-character. It also isn't as morally reprehensible as some people would make it seem, although due to the show's complete inability to show context or complexity it will come off that way.

Here's a quote by Stannis, from the books:

I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty...If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark...Sacrifice...is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice.

Or discussing the question of sacrificing Edric Storm (for whom Gendry was a stand-in on the show)...

"He may be the best boy who ever drew breath and it would not matter. My duty is to the realm." His hand swept across the Painted Table. "How many boys dwell in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies...a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone...she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?" He ground his teeth. "We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must...we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty."

Stannis believes, very much not without reason, that the world is perched on the edge of calamity. That the Long Night has come again, that the fate of everyone in Westeros is at a tipping point, and that he is the only one who can stop it. It's why he sails north to battle Mance Rayder and protect the wall, instead of returning south to vie for the Iron Throne again.

Would that Stannis sacrifice his own daughter if he felt it was the only way forward? I think he probably would. I also think book Shireen is doomed, given how frequently the Wildlings refer to her as "the dead girl". Part of that is drumming up Greyscale (some kind of sweeping plague is nigh with that disease), but the long term prognosis for Shireen is not good, particularly not with Melisandre hovering about.

In terms of the show, it doesn't work well because it's not presented well. Surprise surprise.

"OMG not like the books!" ... how many times do the writer/producers need to explain TV GoT is not the same story line as book GoT. Get it through your thick skulls already.

I think everyone is aware. In large part because the writing on the show that is not drawn from the books is absolutely risible shit.

Makes it pretty easy to tell the difference.

 

[rcs619]

I'm just glad they had Stannis follow through with it. My biggest concern is that Stannis would chicken out at the last minute and that we would see his character assassinated.

At the end of the day, this is perfectly in line with Stannis and what he is willing to do to achieve his ends. Stannis does not compromise, he does not yield when he feels is right, and he will do whatever he has to to achieve his goals. This is a man who's already...
> Cut off the fingers of the man who helped smuggle in food to keep him alive during a siege because he had been a pirate and illegal smuggler before.
> Been perfectly willing to kill his own little brother because he stood in his way to the throne.
> Burned many of his advisers, and I believe his sister's brother, alive because they would not convert to his new religion.
> Cheated on his wife multiple times to help fuel Mel's crazy blood-voodoo.
> Invoked dark blood-magic to tele-murder his three biggest rivals.
> Allowed Mel to pretty much burn whoever she wanted if it kept her happy.
> Was *perfectly willing* to allow her to burn his nephew (bastard-born but still) alive for his kingsblood.
> Completely abandoned Dragonstone and all the people on it (in the books it would later be attacked by Lannister/Tyrell forces) so he could go north and regroup.

Stannis has proven himself to be a ruthless unyielding bastard. He's every bit as ruthless as Robert was a drunken buffoon and Renley was a naive, cocky little shit. I have to wonder how well this will work out for him though. For every victory Mel has given him, she's also allowed him to walk right into terrible, horrible defeat (Blackwater Bay). She can see the future in the fire, but that doesn't mean she has to tell him all of it, especially if it doesn't suit her and her god's plan. In the books it's much more strongly implied that Mel is just kind of leading him along with her chosen holy warrior bullshit when Stannis really isn't (or she's at least refusing to tell him everything he needs to know until it's best for her purposes). So, we'll see I guess.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

In the books it's much more strongly implied that Mel is just kind of leading him along with her chosen holy warrior bullshit when Stannis really isn't (or she's at least refusing to tell him everything he needs to know until it's best for her purposes). So, we'll see I guess.

Mel genuinely thinks he is Azor Ahai, it's other people (like Aemon) that question her conclusions. It isn't until she spends a lot of time with Jon and Stannis has marched off to Winterfell that she starts to wonder if her visions weren't wrong.

As for Stannis...while he can be ruthless, I don't think "ruthless" is a good summation of his character. He is single minded and utterly committed to his purpose. Very much an "ends justify the means" type.

 

[Silence]

According to the writers of the show, GRRM actually told them to do it. It may very well happen in the books in some way.

I'm pretty sure Shireen dies this way in the books too, after watching the "Inside the episode".

I'd just like to address this.

Shireen may as well die in the books too... But absolutely not in the same way and absolutely not with Stannis' approval. In the books, Stannis is near Winterfell, preparing for battle. Shireen is in Castle Black with Selyse, Melisandre and some of Stannis' men. So he cannot be there to authorize anything. He even forbids burning some of his soldiers who are not believers in R'hllor. In one of the TWOW sample chapter, Stannis orders his men that, if he dies in the upcoming battle, they swear their fealty to Shireen Baratheon and work on putting her on the iron throne (he sends one of his men to Braavos to negotiate with the Iron Bank and to buy thousands of sellswords as soldiers; he says that in the even of his death, this mission is still to be carried out and Shireen to be placed on the throne as his heir and the last true born Baratheon).

So no. Stannis will not allow for his daughter to be burned in the books. His intention is a 100% stated and clear: Shireen is his heir and will sit the iron throne if he dies. Is it still going to happen? Perhaps. In what way, how exactly? We don't know. But it won't be with Stannis' blessing. Spoilers for the books:

Spoiler

The possible theory is that Melisandre will sacrifice Shireen to resurrect Jon. This would, of course, be without Stannis' knowledge or approval, because Stannis would never sacrifice his only heir for some Night's Watch bastard.

He theoretically could come back and then do it, I would think it possible and in-character. We'll see.

This what happened in the show is not very good. It took Stannis a feeble attack on the camp (attack that we don't even get to see properly, we just have to roll with it) to agree to sacrifice his only child and heir, a child we were shown he went to great lengths to save from greyscale. And for what was the sacrifice exactly? For some sunny weather? Stannis survived the siege of Storm's End by eating rats and glue from book bindings (show canon), that's how much resolve he has and how resourceful he is and how stubborn. But a few days of rough snow and he's off to sacrifice his beloved child. Right.

With that I 100% agree.