Yeah, that's possible, though that would require several other unlikely things to happen. Like, he would have to survive the battle for Winterfell and then we have two possibilities:
1. He wins and lives - why sacrifice his daughter in this case?
2. He loses and lives - ... and manages to run away with enough men, go back to Castle Black, sacrifice Shireen and then attack Winterfell again. It seems a bit stupid. Though, who knows.
What we know now is that Ramsay claims Stannis is dead already and that he lost. This might prompt Melisandre to sacrifice Shireen, but it would be without Stannis' knowledge. Either way, the books have much more nuance in this case and I can't see the events of the show happen in the books, at least not for the same reason and in the same way. Which is kinda disappointing, as the whole thing in Winterfell is great in the books, with so many factions and so many possibilities and so many sides.
I don't personally like it but I do think sacrificing Shireen is in character for Stannis. Stannis doesn't bow, Stannis doesn't bend. If Stannis believes he MUST do something then he'l do it no matter what he is forced to do to get there.
But I'm not buying that Winter makes Stannis do this. This is the man who staved off a year of starvation at the siege of Storms end, surviving on cats, dogs and rats. A bit of snow shouldn't trouble him, at least not this soon.
In or out of character in the books or not, I just don't feel that it's a stretch in the TV show. He's someone who is 100% convinced he needs to do what he needs to do, no matter the cost. He's killed family before, and he was in a better situation then. As some people on reddit have been defending his decision, he feels that the lives of his men and his success (Shireen would die if he failed anyway) outweigh her life. Davos might've been able to talk him out of it, but Stannis even predicted that and send him away.
Maybe you're pissed off that Stannis isn't the same as in the books, and that's understandable. But as far as my opinion goes, he's gotten more and more extreme as time passes, and he was bound to do something that would truly show just how ridiculously determined he is. The crown first, everything else second. That's just the kind of extremist he's become.
I'll admit that I've lost all faith in him at this point. I mean, here he is, braving the cold to take back the North and eliminate the traitorous Boltons, but one little setback, and he goes and burns his own daughter. Seriously, who does that? Doesn't he know that humans are terrible kindling?
People have made some good arguments that it's in character for Stannis, but I still strongly disagree.
Shireen is his only heir. Book-Stannis, remember...
...Orders Ser Justin Massey to take the Iron Bank's gold and, should Stannis himself die, purchase the sellsword companies to fight for Shireen's claim to the throne.
He is iron, unbending, yes. But killing his daughter, his heir, is bending. It would be a massive compromise. None of the other sacrifices have been innocent, let alone beloved of Stannis, let alone necessary for his lineage.
I understand the symbolic parallel with Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa, which is the thing that still gives me pause. However, contrary to a lot of book-readers, I put relatively little stock in prophecies... I think it more likely that Melisandre will burn Shireen in Stannis' absense, perhaps while he's fighting at Winterfell. She will see it as his sacrifice. She'll see it as Nissa Nissa. But book-Stannis would not have made that decision himself, and it will fall on him like a tonne of bricks.
That's my prediction, anyway, and my hope.
....This latest episode does mean, however, that I need to change my avatar. My avatar as is honours show-Stannis, which... isn't acceptable any more.
I'm not sure that he wouldn't. I feel like book Stannis still harbors some doubt about Melisandre, which is why he's constantly balking at her demands. However, if the books were altered to create the circumstance in the show...Stannis is on his nightmare death-march to Winterfell, he's losing men by the hundreds every day, he's snowbound and freezing, and Melisandre came to him and said "Hey Stan, if we burn Shireen it'll all be okay", he MIGHT go along with it. Yes, he wants the throne secure for his daughter/legacy, but I always felt like he prioritized the battle for the dawn over the crown. It was him embracing the duties of a king rather than just lusting after the power which is what made people like him so much (despite his inherent lack of charm or grace).
So the question for me is...IF Stannis felt like Shireen had to die to prevent the Long Night, would he do it? I submit that he probably would. A lineage isn't worth much if everyone is dead to White Walkers anyway.
I'm not sure that he wouldn't. I feel like book Stannis still harbors some doubt about Melisandre, which is why he's constantly balking at her demands. However, if the books were altered to create the circumstance in the show...Stannis is on his nightmare death-march to Winterfell, he's losing men by the hundreds every day, he's snowbound and freezing, and Melisandre came to him and said "Hey Stan, if we burn Shireen it'll all be okay", he MIGHT go along with it. Yes, he wants the throne secure for his daughter/legacy, but I always felt like he prioritized the battle for the dawn over the crown. It was him embracing the duties of a king rather than just lusting after the power which is what made people like him so much (despite his inherent lack of charm or grace).
As far as I can see, the circumstances the show has created would make it even less likely that book-Stannis would go along with it. In the show...
...Balon Greyjoy is still alive, meaning that Melisandre's magic has only got a 2/3 success rate. In the books, remember, when 2/3 of the other contenders had died, Stannis mocked Melisandre for not having delivered.
On top of that, recall Stannis' internal debate over Edric Storm, contrasted with show-Stannis' immediate willingness to burn Gendry. I'd also say that the wintery conditions in the book are described as being significantly worse than those in the show: several chapters devoted to them, descriptions of desperation and starvation and cannibalism, etc.
I'd also say that the wintery conditions described in the book are described as being significantly worse than those in the show: several chapters devoted to them, descriptions of desperation and starvation and cannibalism, etc.
Oh they definitely are. The show's delivery on the whole Stannis marches on Winterfell/blizzard storyline has been woeful, and arguably my biggest disappointment of the season, because the source material was so strong.
Yeah I take my words back what I said about him in the past when me and my bro dicuss who should rule the Iron throne. I said something about I can somewhat symapathise him since he kinda wanted the respect he should had been given seeing how his brother Remmy had the better reward.
Also with that other thread, I suppose I am routing for Daenery now that I learn of her proper age in the series (Sansa is 14 my ass given to her tall height!). With her being "14" I guess she still justify for having trial and errors in her judgement and still have time to mature and be wiser (while still riding on a dragon like a badass)!
Honestly with that burning scene, I was way more suprise that Stannis wife (forgot her name) couldn't go through with it at the last minute! I mean she was way more devoted to Melissandra like allowing her brother to be burned (maybe they weren't close), being ok with Stannis cheating on her with Melessandra to further his goal and with her always belittle Shireen when those two are together. Also speaking of that scene, I facepalm so much with Shireen wanted to "helped" her dad. I guess that was not what in mind when she said that.
I pretty much want either one of these things to happened in the next episode-
His armies have even less morale (you clearly saw they were not happy with the burning) and most likely to either give up/ surrender easily or backstab Stannis.
When Davos heard/ read about it, I would like for him to assassinate Stannis but it probably unlikely now that he is away. It is more likely he stop not supporting Stannis and joined the Night Watch thus not providing supplies and reinforcement.
Taking Winterfell was a failure and we get a good look at Stannis face realising his sacriface was all for nought and breakdown realising what he had done.
Yeah I pretty much acting like he will not suceed which kinda make me think he even more unfit to claim the Iron Throne. He kinda of the new Mad King now well not to the point he start burning random people. Still Rickon (when the hell are we going to see any progress from his point of view since he pretty much absent from this season so far) make a good point that Ned treated his citizen as if they were his children and this bare some fruit given they still got some loyalist despite his demise. How will this reflect on Stannis now, he won't have the citizen loved and loyality should he claim the throne. Even then a rule should know when to admit defeat or when to withdraw and not relying on magic/ good luck alone but again I don't like in the world of magic.
Before you meation that rule have to make sacriface/ hard desicion/ choices, I don't see it that way. I see it more as a gamble at this point, a bad gamble all or nothing.
If he does take Winterfell back, I pretty much expecting black magic in full force!!
Also no I haven't forgot about the Bolton. I would like to see them get their arses kicked but it won't be Stannis (maybe Brienne rally any remaining Stark loyalist left and revolt their new masters).
I suppose I can look at it this way, he no longer has a legacy (for now).
Lastly, so having an Oyster cart/ tray is pretty much a key to the city AND provide stealth mode??? I am also not convince Hizdahr is dead since he was late for the start of the ceremory and he was just lying on the ground when we saw the last of him. I am convince he is in cohoot with the Son of Harpy. Speaking of the Harpy, I am even less impresses with the unsullied (yes during the first fight, they were ambush and they did take alot of Harpies before they went down but still clearly they are NOT spartans!).
One of the things that confuses me is that Shireen is/was his only child, and it was shown that his wife had trouble even getting one child, so, now with no daughter- even if Stannis did get the throne, who would succeed him?
I don't watch the show any more, because I don't like that they gave Jeyne's role to Sansa and felt the show was getting a bit rubbish, but I'm interested to the bits that are likely to show up in the books.
I'd also say that the wintery conditions described in the book are described as being significantly worse than those in the show: several chapters devoted to them, descriptions of desperation and starvation and cannibalism, etc.
Oh they definitely are. The show's delivery on the whole Stannis marches on Winterfell/blizzard storyline has been woeful, and arguably my biggest disappointment of the season, because the source material was so strong.
I agree with this as well. It's kinda the reason why this decision is quite irrational for him. Stannis faced worse in his lifetime, even the show talked about it. And the conditions in the show weren't shown to be that terrible. In the books, the descriptions made me feel like there is no way for Stannis to ever get out of there and win the upcoming battle. In the show, it looks like a mild nuisance. Seeing as Stannis doesn't even consider the sacrifice in worse conditions (and Shireen isn't even with him), his choice to do it in the show where things are not as bad is a tad stupid.
I also miss the whole thing in Winterfell with Manderly and the Freys and the ghost of Winterfell. Generally, I don't like comparing the show to the books because different media, different rules, but I read the books and these events were far superior there. I can't help but be underwhelmed with how they turned out to be depicted in the show. This episode made me feel underwhelmed several times, most notably with Daznak's Pit. Instead of the chaos and panic of a wild dragon eating random people, we have Drogon swoop in like a superhero. It really cheapens the dragons a little bit.
Phasmal said:
One of the things that confuses me is that Shireen is/was his only child, and it was shown that his wife had trouble even getting one child, so, now with no daughter- even if Stannis did get the throne, who would succeed him?
One of my problems with this turn of events as well. Stannis considers Shireen as his heir and the rightful heir to the throne in her own right. Him sacrificing her is silly when we take that into account (especially since he orders his men in TWoW to install her on the throne should he die). Stannis effectively killed his own house by killing Shireen. Why would he do that?
1) I am sure every major plot point is in some way approved by GRRM - is this that much more shocking than The Red Wedding?
2) This reminds me of the story of Ray Bradbury being told his interpretation of his own book - Fahrenheit 451 - was wrong.
Not necessarily. He's said before that he only found out the show were doing something after it aired (the Jaime-Cersei rape, I believe).
D&D did say, "when George told us about it" with regards to this... but some are saying that's ambiguous. Perhaps Shireen is burned, but by Melisandre, without Stannis' knowledge/ approval. There's some evidence for this: in the books, Melisandre burns people while Stannis is away at the Blackwater, and when he marches on Winterfell in the books, Shireen and Melisandre are both left behind at Castle Black; he can't do the same thing at the same time in the books, because geography prevents him, they're not together.
I can see the shark jumping complaints coming up already.
This did not happen (or will EVER happen) in the books, seems to me the writers cause him to "rape the dog" to make Dany look better.
The show was already shit with all the stupid changes but this shows the writers hve zero sense what the characters represent or shades of grey instead of black and white.
Stannis is no longer the mannis. Davos is gonna be pissed, and now there's no one left who's fit to rule, save for maybe Jon Snow, but I doubt he'd take the job. I say they turn Westeros over to the psychos and be done with it. The Boltons are as good as any at this point.
It may happen in the books, but not in the same way. And context is very important. Stannis physically cannot do this because he and Shireen are not in the same place. Furthermore, in the books he ordered his men to continue fighting in his daughter's name and to seat her on the iron throne in the event of his death in the upcoming battle. So while Shireen might burn in the books, it will be under vastly different circumstances (probably Melisandre without Stannis' permission for reasons unknown. She already has a record of burning people while Stannis was away).
It may happen in the books, but not in the same way. And context is very important. Stannis physically cannot do this because he and Shireen are not in the same place. Furthermore, in the books he ordered his men to continue fighting in his daughter's name and to seat her on the iron throne in the event of his death in the upcoming battle. So while Shireen might burn in the books, it will be under vastly different circumstances (probably Melisandre without Stannis' permission for reasons unknown. She already has a record of burning people while Stannis was away).
If it comes to that, I forsee a spike with the redhead's name on it. Even Stannis would fly into a blind rage at this point, and that's if Davos doesn't beat him to it.
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