I can't believe the amount of petty bitching on this thread. Game of Thrones as a TV series has been almost universally acclaimed, it is up there with the best television around. Sure it's not perfect but neither are the books (or anything). Why don't you all just stop whinging and enjoy it for what it is. If you think you can do it better go out and do it yourself.
I don't think anyone is asking for a verbatim adaptation. It wouldn't be possible, not without a show that is hundreds of hours long.
There's a great distance between staying in absolute lockstep with the novels and changing things just to change things, and doing a bad job of it.
And I wouldn't hold up "The Walking Dead" as a successful example of anything. If there is a show on television with more dire pacing problems than Game of Thrones it's The Walking Dead.
I don't know where you are in the books, but there's been more than one sign that Daenerys has a touch of the old Targaryen madness. I'm not entirely sold on her ability to lead a nation.
Im waiting for the winds of winter. I haven't read the last few in a while, but i didn't pick up anything about her being mad, though i remember her being awful with hostages. I think tyrion noticed that the blue haired boy was rather reckless. But i think if daenerys is mad it's probably because of the shit she's gone through, rather than her being a genetic lunatic.
I've already got a truck of theories for the books. (and yeah, there's far to much foreshadowing when it comes to a few characters. I'm sure of the fates of Cersei (Exactly sure), all the 'starks' but rickon and sansa. Daenerys i expect to live past a certain point but i'm not sure about after that.
Prophecies are the worst plot device.
Kakulukia- Yet you knew what each of these misspellings meant and so did everyone else. There's little reward for pointing them out.
I've already got a truck of theories for the books. (and yeah, there's far to much foreshadowing when it comes to a few characters. I'm sure of the fates of Cersei (Exactly sure), all the 'starks' but rickon and sansa. Daenerys i expect to have live.
Really? that's how you see her? Odd, because that isn't the impression of her that I personally get from the show. I see her as a young and inexperienced woman, who finds herself in a position of power, and is unsure what to do for the best result. She's figuring it out as she goes, making the best of what she's been given. Which is pretty much how she is in the books. Sorry but I think you are misreading the actresses performance in the show, she doesn't come off as spoilt and spiteful at all.
Innocent Flower said:
In the books Jon,Arya, daenerys, bran,rickon theon and many others are far better characters.
Really? Hard to say they are better characters in the books, because they got almost zero page-time in the series. GRRM spent so much book time focusing on Sansa and Cercie and the court insanity...sorry intrigue, that we barely saw anything of what Jon or Arya or Bran were doing. They'd get maybe a 2 page chapter, then we'd have to suffer through 200 pages of internal dialogue from Sansa's point of view. Sorry but I think the show has done a spectacular job of fleshing out Jon, Arya, Bran, etc given the minimal amount of source material to work with. The sad reality is that, regardless of how awesome these characters are, and indeed they are awesome, GRRM simply did not put any focus on them in the first few books. I've yet to read the most recent published book, but up to that one, they were the "meanwhile above the Wall" kind of cutaway thing, he would stick in. He'd give us a teaser bit of the actual cool stuff going on, and then bore you to tears again with more of the political plot. So as far as the material the tv show is working off of, they simply have to make up more of what these characters are, compared to the source material.
*blinks* Uh, no, sorry I don't agree with this at all.
Innocent Flower said:
Her stay in Harrenhall for instance is entirely different. in the tv series it's shallow. In the books there's a lot of character development for Arya in Harrenhall. The names she gives to Jaqen and the manner she gives them to jaqen allow for far less character development. The way she's taken to Harrenhall is different. The way she rarely sees Tywin is very important (how could you forget to say his name when he's right there like in the tv series?)
Well of course there is more development in the books. The Song of Ice and Fire series is FULL of internal dialogue of the characters. We see what they are thinking and why, which is completely lacking in any visual media that doesn't involve a narrator. The actors have to try and convey with expression and body language, pages of internal conflict/debate/resolution, and that's not always an easy thing to do. The expression for "I'm slowly converting my mind into a sharp blade of hate and vengeance against this man and his family, might also look a lot like the face for "can I hold this fart in or should I sneak it out and hope they don't notice?" That's a comical example of course, but you get my point. And also, you and I might look at the same expression from the actress playing Arya, and come away with completely different interpretations of her internal thoughts. Based on your opinion of her character, I would say that's exactly what's going on.
In the third book she kills the ticker and his men in an inn with the hound, she reclaims needle during this fight. How can she fight them in the tv series if they're already dead?
Maybe the producers/writers felt that it would make better narrative sense/flow to have that particular situation take place with a different character? GRRM has said himself in the commentary that he has made the story so thick and complex, that it's simply too big and unwieldy for a tv show. Hell, that was what he set out to do when he first made the books. To make a story that wasn't constrained by the limitations of tv and movies. Well he did that obviously, and now he's having to make radical changes to things to make it fit into the tv show. Things have to change for various reasons.
Innocent Flower said:
Books- One of her handmaidens doesn't survive the red wastes. She sends out her bloodriders in three directions from an abandoned city, one of them comes back with pratt prie, xaro and the vieled woman who wish to take her and her dragons back to the city.
Tv series- She sends out bloodriders. One of them dies. another comes back telling of a city. When she gets to the city she begins making death threats. Then a guy cuts his hands to let her in.
Maybe the actors for those 3 characters weren't available to shoot the "come riding into the desert to welcome you" scene? Maybe that was shot 3 months before at the beginning of filming, and then 3 months later, when Pratt Prie, Xaro and the other members of the 13 could all be on set at once, they shot the "welcome to Qaurth" scene? As far as the part about her death threats, she seemed to me, to be pretty desperate and exhausted at that point, and was just flailing about, hoping to get a result. You go walking through the desert for weeks with little food/water and see how coherent your train of thought is.
Innocent Flower said:
Books- People offer her gifts, xaro (who's hinted at not being hetrosexual) wishes to marry her for her dragons, she is trying to buy ships. She's politely invited into the house of the undying with the promise of knowledge.
Tv- Xaro has a wonderful vault with nothing in it. He betrays her for dragons with the warlocks. Her dragons get taken, because dragons let themselves be taken. xaro's only prize for the betrayal is one of the handmaidens.
The Undying's invitation was nothing but polite in the TV show. ^_^ Creepy, yes, but very VERY polite.
Innocent Flower said:
also in the books the Reeds arrive before theon arrives. They become good friends with bran and hide with him in the crypts during the sacking. None of this creepy bullshit that they seem to be doing in the tv series.
Again, this is due to the limitations of tv. Some of the elements that happened later in the series, have been moved up for plot flow purposes. This is just going to be a reality of the show. Ask yourself "What difference does it make who hid Bran in the crypts? And what difference does it make if the Reeds join them a few weeks later in the overall journey?" So what? They're still with Bran now, and able to fulfill their role to the story, the only thing changed was their introduction to the audience. Possibly they did it for a more dramatic scene? Perhaps it was a spot where it didn't make sense for them to be hanging out in the crypts, given the location of the crypts. Really, who cares? It's a fairly minor point about the progression of plot/characters, and if this is the kind of thing you are going to get upset about, then perhaps you shouldn't watch the show. I doubt such things are going to stop happening, so you're probably just going to work yourself up over fairly trivial aspects of the story.
Really? Hard to say they are better characters in the books, because they got almost zero page-time in the series. GRRM spent so much book time focusing on Sansa and Cercie and the court insanity...sorry intrigue, that we barely saw anything of what Jon or Arya or Bran were doing. They'd get maybe a 2 page chapter, then we'd have to suffer through 200 pages of internal dialogue from Sansa's point of view. Sorry but I think the show has done a spectacular job of fleshing out Jon, Arya, Bran, etc given the minimal amount of source material to work with. The sad reality is that, regardless of how awesome these characters are, and indeed they are awesome, GRRM simply did not put any focus on them in the first few books. I've yet to read the most recent published book, but up to that one, they were the "meanwhile above the Wall" kind of cutaway thing, he would stick in. He'd give us a teaser bit of the actual cool stuff going on, and then bore you to tears again with more of the political plot. So as far as the material the tv show is working off of, they simply have to make up more of what these characters are, compared to the source material.
Really. I can't recall the exact allotment of time to each individual character, but I believe either Dany or Tyrion had the most POV chapters, with Jon right behind them. Sansa has had little attention since Storm of Swords, serving mainly as a window for Littlefinger's machinations. Bran has a ton of chapters in both SoS and ADWD. I'm actually kind of confused what books you're reading. I suspect you are letting your distaste for the "boring political plot" color your impression of which characters are getting the most attention.
That said, I think the portrayal of Jon and Dany on the show has been more or less fine.
Happyninja42 said:
Maybe the producers/writers felt that it would make better narrative sense/flow to have that particular situation take place with a different character? GRRM has said himself in the commentary that he has made the story so thick and complex, that it's simply too big and unwieldy for a tv show. Hell, that was what he set out to do when he first made the books. To make a story that wasn't constrained by the limitations of tv and movies. Well he did that obviously, and now he's having to make radical changes to things to make it fit into the tv show. Things have to change for various reasons.
Well, again. Anyone with common sense knew the books would need to be GREATLY condensed to fit into a 10 episode per season television show. At twice the length you'd still need to cut gratuitously. That's part of the reason I forgive the show somewhat for its absolutely dreadful pacing issues...I know they have entirely too much material to cover and nowhere near enough time to do it justice.
There's condensing, though, and then there's just dicking around to dick around. I've yet to hear a satisfactory explanation, for example, of the Jeyne/Talissa swap, or the complete re-write of Shae's character, or the removal of significant tracks of Sansa/Sandor's interaction so that we can have another 10 minutes of Roz looking gormless. You can't just throw a blanket over every bad decision make by the show runners and say "they were difficult books to bring to the screen". Of course they were. They get infinite laurels for even TRYING to do this. They get plenty of shit for the things they screw up for no good reason. One does not cancel out the other.
I've already got a truck of theories for the books. (and yeah, there's far to much foreshadowing when it comes to a few characters. I'm sure of the fates of Cersei (Exactly sure), all the 'starks' but rickon and sansa. Daenerys i expect to have live.
I hadn't considered that. I honestly expected that she'd bring her dragons to the wall though (they're the ultimate otherkilling machines) . The knights watch also being armed with wildfire at somepoint.
Other theories of mine (absolutely massive spoilers)
-Jamie kills cersei
-Arya can't quite pick up the nihlism of the house of black and white. Because black and white are stark colours.
-Jon's the third dragon. i suspect he gets the white one. That Reed guy will tell him what happened in the tower of joy. or perhaps a weirwood witnessed a confesion
- Jon's not fucking dead. Or perhaps he gets a new human body at some point.
with Less founded evidence, i'm also going to say that:
i suspect gendry becomes an important character for arya at some point. Though there's a chance she's sent against daenerys.
Tyrion gets the rock. he's loved too much to not too.
sansa learns a lot from littlefinger.
Varys will die. Though i expect him to meet daenerys first.
Rickon is crazy.
Brienne/jamie is saved by the shout of 'arya'
Victarion will lose his fleet to daenerys
Syrio isn't dead. There's even a chance that he's the faceless man who became jaqen used the position of her dance master as a cover. ( he isn't found on the wall of heads, yet there's a faceless man in the black cells and he knew arya's name. though that could be contributed to him overhearing her.)
I'm probably forgetting a few things. haven't read the last three books in a while
i don't know why there's a faceless man infiltrating the maesters though. could someone explain why?
In the third book she kills the ticker and his men in an inn with the hound, she reclaims needle during this fight. How can she fight them in the tv series if they're already dead?
This whole thing is going to have to be spoiler tagged
Similar to this I noticed some things about the scene where Renly dies:
1 - His armour is removed, it can't be seen as inhuman when he his throat is cut through the gorget
2 - There isn't any mystery about the shadow, it's a big black human shape instead of a fleeting shadow. Also Stannis is willingly a part of the killing...when he is meant to frown on kinslaying
3 - Brienne kills the guards who come in as opposed to only defending herself
Now these things combined mean it is impossible for Brienne to be seen as innocent later on when she needs to be and hell even if she is she still cut down the guards.
I just can't watch the TV show it makes things feel really dumbed down and irrational. The battle of the wolfswood has no explained strategy just "oh hey we beat Jaime out of nowhere", Halfhand attacks Jon Snow for no reason instead of making Jon kill him to gain the wildlings trust, Theon in Winterfell condenses things down so much that Rodrik must have teleorted back and I don't even think Ramsay is in it as Reek.
Although I truly lost my shit when in the first season Joffrey KNOWS he is an incestral bastard instead of it being hidden from him and he is the one to order the killing of Robert's bastards, not Cersei. Which undermines the plot later on pretty damn strongly
-Jamie kills cersei
-Arya can't quite pick up the nihlism of the house of black and white. Because black and white are stark colours.
-Jon's the third dragon. i suspect he gets the white one. That Reed guy will tell him what happened in the tower of joy. or perhaps a weirwood witnessed a confesion
- Jon's not fucking dead. Or perhaps he gets a new body at some point.
with Less founded evidence, i'm also going to say that:
i suspect gendry becomes an important character for arya at some point. Though there's a chance she's sent against daenerys.
Tyrion gets the rock. he's loved too much to not too.
sansa learns a lot from littlefinger.
Varys will die. Though i expect him to meet daenerys first.
Rickon is crazy.
Brienne/jamie is saved by the shout of 'arya'
Victarion will lose his fleet to daenerys
I'm probably forgetting a few things. haven't read the last three books in a while
i don't know why there's a faceless man infiltrating the maesters though. could someone explain why?
Agreed on Jaime/Cersei, unless it's Robert Strong that does the deed. You can also see the Robert Strong/Hound confrontation coming a mile off.
Jon is evidently a Targaryen/the third Dragon, yeah. The hints about him being Lyanna/Rhaegar's son weren't evident on a first read but after multiple re-reads are ACHINGLY obvious.
Jon is obviously not going to fully die. Melisandre is right there. At worst he gets the same treatment Dondarrion got.
I still expect Sandor/Sansa to get reunited at some point, but I'm not entirely sure how or why. I feel like their shared arc never really got closure.
Rickon is feral, not crazy. Although who the hell knows what's gone on during his time on Skagos. Why Osha thought THAT was a good idea...
It seems evident to me that Dany is going to use the Iron Fleet to transport her army to Westeros, yeah. Whether she does it in alliance with them, or in thrall to them, or in charge of them, remains to be seen.
Someone significant is gonna get Greyscale. Possibly Tyrion.
And I still think Jon and Dany fall in love and the Nissa Nissa/Azor Ahai thing gets repeated, and that's the penultimate tragedy before victory is finally achieved.
I don't think anyone is asking for a verbatim adaptation. It wouldn't be possible, not without a show that is hundreds of hours long.
There's a great distance between staying in absolute lockstep with the novels and changing things just to change things, and doing a bad job of it.
And I wouldn't hold up "The Walking Dead" as a successful example of anything. If there is a show on television with more dire pacing problems than Game of Thrones it's The Walking Dead.
I would agree with this. Plus, I feel like it may have lost a lot of viewers with the let down of a season finale. I didn't think it was too bad, but then I stopped watching it midway through and missed like 3 episodes. What did you think of the finale?
On to the subject of Game of Thrones, I recently purchased the audio books for the series and am about to finish A Dance with Dragons.
Honestly I can't be too angry with what they have done yet. I see the small changes they are making as opportunities to save money. Such as...
Edric Storm not being in the series, and Melisendre apparently going after Gendry instead. At least thats what I'm guessing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds expensive to bring in a new actor only to have him on screen for 2 episodes only to kill them off right away.
I just don't see why everyone likes Dany so much, I guess I can see where female readers might like her but every single time I listen to what she's doing I just wonder why she isn't dead. She's a loose end, and I don't like loose ends.
I'm curious to see what happens with the rest of the season though, the two guys in charge wanted to film this season most of all so I hope its going to be good. But I'm preparing myself for somewhat of a let down.
1) I heard they don't really like Stannis so he might get the shaft even more than he already has. Which is unfortunate since he's probably my favorite character.
2) I don't think the Red Wedding is going to live up to the way it was in the books. I just can't see them doing that all on TV whether its HBO or not. Also, Having Iwan Rheon as Ramsay Bolton seems to have ticked off a few people, but there was no way they were going to get someone really ugly to play his part. On TV even the ugly people tend to be pretty. I'm not complaining though, I think Iwan Rheon is going to be great, he can really play a psycho.
3) I don't see Tyrion strangling Shae in the show. Book Shae, perhaps, but this isn't book Shae. I'm going to bet that Tywin kills her and then Tyrion kills Tywin in a fit of rage. Or something to that effect. Perhaps I could be wrong.
I would agree with this. Plus, I feel like it may have lost a lot of viewers with the let down of a season finale. I didn't think it was too bad, but then I stopped watching it midway through and missed like 3 episodes. What did you think of the finale?
I could talk all day on the subject of how disappointing The Walking Dead is. At this point I think I'm watching it as a form of self-punishment. There are these occasional good episodes, or good fragments of an episode, that keep you coming back for more disappointment.
Long story short: Horrible acting/writing for the character of Andrea, a completely impotent and ineffectual antagonist in the form of the Governor, a sloppy or non-existent arc for Merle and a host of poorly inserted secondary characters made the bulk of season 3 straight up through the finale an agonizing slog. It's just not a very good show.
Ishal said:
On to the subject of Game of Thrones, I recently purchased the audio books for the series and am about to finish A Dance with Dragons.
Ah, a fellow audio-booker. How are you enjoying the narration? I have to say, I'd heard Roy Dotrice was all kinds of awesome for books 1-3, but I only ever heard him do book 5, and it was...not good. The guy does 75 different voices, all of which seem to be a variation on "Crazy Irish Pirate".
Ishal said:
Edric Storm not being in the series, and Melisendre apparently going after Gendry instead. At least thats what I'm guessing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds expensive to bring in a new actor only to have him on screen for 2 episodes only to kill them off right away.
I'd heard that too. I'm going to withhold judgment on it until I see the result, but it is quite a deviation.
Ishal said:
I just don't see why everyone likes Dany so much, I guess I can see where female readers might like her but every single time I listen to what she's doing I just wonder why she isn't dead. She's a loose end, and I don't like loose ends.
Without getting into too much speculation about future events, I think Dany's role in the books is evidently pretty significant. Her chapters have been pretty aimless for a while now, but that's Martin losing himself in his own plot.
Ishal said:
I'm curious to see what happens with the rest of the season though, the two guys in charge wanted to film this season most of all so I hope its going to be good. But I'm preparing myself for somewhat of a let down.
1) I heard they don't really like Stannis so he might get the shaft even more than he already has. Which is unfortunate since he's probably my favorite character.
2) I don't think the Red Wedding is going to live up to the way it was in the books. I just can't see them doing that all on TV whether its HBO or not. Also, Having Iwan Rheon as Ramsay Bolton seems to have ticked off a few people, but there was no way they were going to get someone really ugly to play his part. On TV even the ugly people tend to be pretty. I'm not complaining though, I think Iwan Rheon is going to be great, he can really play a psycho.
3) I don't see Tyrion strangling Shae in the show. Book Shae, perhaps, but this isn't book Shae. I'm going to bet that Tywin kills her and then Tyrion kills Tywin in a fit of rage. Or something to that effect. Perhaps I could be wrong.
1. Where'd you hear that about Stannis? He really doesn't have much to do in SoS, but I quite liked his story line in ADWD. I thought it was one of the strongest parts of the book.
2. Yeah, I'm worried about this too. The Jeyne/Talissa swap, for one, has some pretty significant implications for the Red Wedding.
3. As long as he does a good job I'm not really assed about what Ramsay looks like. It's a tough role to play well. He needs to be psychotic without being "psychotic", you know? The audience needs to loathe AND fear him.
4. Yeah, I hear you. I don't see it happening either. They seem obsessed with re-writing Shae into some kind of a sympathetic character, and Dinklage's popularity means they're unlikely to let their "leading man" throttle a sympathetic girl. Shae's re-write is one of my major irritations with the show at the moment. I think the actress portraying her has been sketchy at best, and I think making her a more well rounded character (and NOT having Tyrion dispatch her) robs Tyrion of essential character rounding. The fact Shae was a greedy, manipulative brat spoke to Tyrion's vulnerability and poor judgment when it came to romance, and her death was traumatic for him.
Oh well. Apparently it's "fun" when they change things. Herp derp.
You're not supposed to like stannis. I seriously doubt stannis will get the shaft. He's fucking important.
The red wedding... I don't realy see why not. Then again i can't remember anything being so bad in that that they did't show it.
I think you're right about your third point. Though it'd still be more moving to have him kill shae.
One thing to note is that i don't like the direction they're going with theon. Ironborn don't seem the type to use spies at all. Escaping and defiance also ruins the brokenness that he's supposed to have later on.
A great deal of adaptation was necessary to make Lord of the Rings suitable for the big screen. Whole scenes and characters chopped before filming even began, dialogue shifted and given to other characters, etc. The end result was three of the best adventure movies ever. Have you got a crypt's worth of bones to pick about that as well?
Did you see The Avengers? Are you going to tell us Thor should be this fellow [img/]http://media1.shmoop.com/images/mythology/thor-hammer-attack.jpeg[/img] instead of Chris Hemsworth in magi-tech armor? Or that Hulk should be Frankenstein's monster or Mr Hyde rather than an adaptation of both?
What is this thing people have, this defect that makes them say, "I hate this with every fiber of my being....but give me more!" If adaptation bothers you so much, maybe you could, I dunno, stop watching the series?
Actually, I despise the LotR films. They completely misrepresent Tolkien's vision, focusing only on the warfare in the plot, rather than the moral, social, and anti-industrial narratives Tolkien weaved. The only reason that the LotR films were allowed to be made was because his estate wanted the films to be made before the stories became Public Domain, while they still had some control, which the studio is still attempting to violate with things like the LotR slot-machines.
Avengers was mediocre at best, really.
I do not watch the Game of Thrones TV show, and I walked out in disgust of Fellowship of the Ring halfway through and did not pay to see the other films. So do not ask me why "I don't just stop watching?" because I have indeed. I have a more pertinent question for you, though, why don't you grow up and acquire some better aesthetics?
You're not supposed to like stannis. I seriously doubt stannis will get the shaft. He's fucking important.
The red wedding... I don't realy see why not. Then again i can't remember anything being so bad in that that they did't show it.
I think you're right about your third point. Though it'd still be more moving to have him kill shae.
One thing to note is that i don't like the direction they're going with theon. Ironborn don't seem the type to use spies at all. Escaping and defiance also ruins the brokenness that he's supposed to have later on.
You might want to employ spoiler tags for some of this. There's no telling if everyone in the thread has read the books.
From ADWD, Ramsay often indulged in little "escapes" for his prisoners, at which point he'd hunt them down and kill/recapture them. This one is going on an awfully long time and seems needlessly complicated, but it is not out of character for Ramsay or Theon, and in some ways is loyal to the books. He didn't instantly get broken. It was a long process of psychological torture.
Did anyone else take issue with the added bit of dialogue in the second episode of the new season when Cat was pattering on about Jon Snow and the pox? By the gods! Why was that a necessary addition?
Did anyone else take issue with the added bit of dialogue in the second episode of the new season when Cat was pattering on about Jon Snow and the pox? By the gods! Why was that a necessary addition?
They're attempting to make Catelyn more sympathetic. It seems to be an ongoing theme with the television show. Tyrion, Cersei, Shae, etc. have all had the same treatment.
Did anyone else take issue with the added bit of dialogue in the second episode of the new season when Cat was pattering on about Jon Snow and the pox? By the gods! Why was that a necessary addition?
They're attempting to make Catelyn more sympathetic. It seems to be an ongoing theme with the television show. Tyrion, Cersei, Shae, etc. have all had the same treatment.
And another thing!!! Why didn't they cut off Peter Dinklage's nose for realsies!?!
Yeah... but in all seriousness. I understand the effort to humanize the characters a touch more, but I suspect that the audience that Cat's extra exposition was aimed at probably already forgot that she hates Jon Snow. They hadn?t brought it up in the series in like two seasons.
I would agree with this. Plus, I feel like it may have lost a lot of viewers with the let down of a season finale. I didn't think it was too bad, but then I stopped watching it midway through and missed like 3 episodes. What did you think of the finale?
I could talk all day on the subject of how disappointing The Walking Dead is. At this point I think I'm watching it as a form of self-punishment. There are these occasional good episodes, or good fragments of an episode, that keep you coming back for more disappointment.
Long story short: Horrible acting/writing for the character of Andrea, a completely impotent and ineffectual antagonist in the form of the Governor, a sloppy or non-existent arc for Merle and a host of poorly inserted secondary characters made the bulk of season 3 straight up through the finale an agonizing slog. It's just not a very good show.
Ishal said:
On to the subject of Game of Thrones, I recently purchased the audio books for the series and am about to finish A Dance with Dragons.
Ah, a fellow audio-booker. How are you enjoying the narration? I have to say, I'd heard Roy Dotrice was all kinds of awesome for books 1-3, but I only ever heard him do book 5, and it was...not good. The guy does 75 different voices, all of which seem to be a variation on "Crazy Irish Pirate".
Ishal said:
Edric Storm not being in the series, and Melisendre apparently going after Gendry instead. At least thats what I'm guessing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds expensive to bring in a new actor only to have him on screen for 2 episodes only to kill them off right away.
I'd heard that too. I'm going to withhold judgment on it until I see the result, but it is quite a deviation.
Ishal said:
I just don't see why everyone likes Dany so much, I guess I can see where female readers might like her but every single time I listen to what she's doing I just wonder why she isn't dead. She's a loose end, and I don't like loose ends.
Without getting into too much speculation about future events, I think Dany's role in the books is evidently pretty significant. Her chapters have been pretty aimless for a while now, but that's Martin losing himself in his own plot.
Ishal said:
I'm curious to see what happens with the rest of the season though, the two guys in charge wanted to film this season most of all so I hope its going to be good. But I'm preparing myself for somewhat of a let down.
1) I heard they don't really like Stannis so he might get the shaft even more than he already has. Which is unfortunate since he's probably my favorite character.
2) I don't think the Red Wedding is going to live up to the way it was in the books. I just can't see them doing that all on TV whether its HBO or not. Also, Having Iwan Rheon as Ramsay Bolton seems to have ticked off a few people, but there was no way they were going to get someone really ugly to play his part. On TV even the ugly people tend to be pretty. I'm not complaining though, I think Iwan Rheon is going to be great, he can really play a psycho.
3) I don't see Tyrion strangling Shae in the show. Book Shae, perhaps, but this isn't book Shae. I'm going to bet that Tywin kills her and then Tyrion kills Tywin in a fit of rage. Or something to that effect. Perhaps I could be wrong.
1. Where'd you hear that about Stannis? He really doesn't have much to do in SoS, but I quite liked his story line in ADWD. I thought it was one of the strongest parts of the book.
2. Yeah, I'm worried about this too. The Jeyne/Talissa swap, for one, has some pretty significant implications for the Red Wedding.
3. As long as he does a good job I'm not really assed about what Ramsay looks like. It's a tough role to play well. He needs to be psychotic without being "psychotic", you know? The audience needs to loathe AND fear him.
4. Yeah, I hear you. I don't see it happening either. They seem obsessed with re-writing Shae into some kind of a sympathetic character, and Dinklage's popularity means they're unlikely to let their "leading man" throttle a sympathetic girl. Shae's re-write is one of my major irritations with the show at the moment. I think the actress portraying her has been sketchy at best, and I think making her a more well rounded character (and NOT having Tyrion dispatch her) robs Tyrion of essential character rounding. The fact Shae was a greedy, manipulative brat spoke to Tyrion's vulnerability and poor judgment when it came to romance, and her death was traumatic for him.
Oh well. Apparently it's "fun" when they change things. Herp derp.
Oh hellz to the yeah Roy Dotrice was the man in the first 3 books. I made a mistake up there. I didn't buy all of them, a buddy of mine gave me the first three off a flash drive but I liked them so much I purchased the other two. A lot of people got ornery when he changed some of the voices in the later books. I'll admit it was a bit jarring but I wasn't about to complain, he's pretty damn good, and I just came off listening to some Wheel of Time audiobooks by Michael Kramer who was pretty good too.
Supposedly in an interview one of them said they weren't too fond of Stannis' character. I don't know if its true or not since I haven't heard it myself, but my inner pessimist is inclined to agree. It seems in a lot of these books nobody (including the authors sometimes) likes that characters I like. Lots of people seem to think Melisendre is controlling him and is behind him burning people alive. I never really saw it that way, and I'm really not that bothered by it either. The worst things Stannis has done pales in comparison with likes of Joffrey and Ramsay/Roose Bolton.
I really, really like his character. He's presented as the underdog and is uncompromisingly just. I'm not a fan of the Game of Thrones, the game of political intrigue I mean, I think a lot of it is petty and ultimately comes back to bite everyone. I LOVED the fact that Varys and all the others in King's Landing were absolutely terrified of Stannis because they knew he'd burn them ALL alive. Also, from what my friend has told me, he meets with a banker from Bravos... which means what Tyrion said in the recent episode is going to come to pass. Stannis is losing money, but the Iron Bank of Bravos looks to be in a position to finance him against Cersei and everyone else. I'd love to see him win, but I doubt he will... he's too old and borderline "good" enough that I worry RR Martin has something horrible planned for him. I could see him fighting a horde of wights and going down fighting believing he is Azor Ahai, or something.
The actor playing Ramsay can indeed look terrifying if he wants to be, but also innocent too. He was in a show I watched a while back with a friend from Uni who got British channels in his apt. I'm interested in his character for a few reasons, the main one is his apparent use as a tool by RR Martin to comment on rape and how its effects go beyond the actually act of the rape. I say apparent because that never struck me when reading it, so it might be a bit of a reach. I don't know about you, but I tend to be somewhat dense when it comes to veiled commentary on social issues in stuff like this.
The thing with Tyrion is that he isn't supposed to be a paragon of virtue, right?. I thought a main theme of these books was to strip away the "good" and "evil" labels and say that people can be both. That is to say, one isn't good in these books, they are simply less of a dick than everyone else, but a dick nonetheless. I would agree with the assessment of Tyrion needing that moment, but like you said he is the "leading man" of sorts. Also, I feel it would be redundant to make Tyrion hate Tywin more, he has plenty enough reason to hate him and he hasn't even been blamed for Joffrey's death yet. The actress playing Shae is... off putting to me. I'm not quite sure what accent she is supposed to have, but it just sounds off. All I'll say is she doesn't nail it like the actress playing Cersei does.
As for the changes and people liking them, I'm somewhat neutral on that. I don't overtly HATE any of them.. yet. I did like the introduction to the brotherhood without banners. Thoros is one of my favorite characters, just incredibly well written. I liked how they were introduced as jovial and somewhat carefree. We'll see what happens when Beric Dondarrion shows up.
Oh hellz to the yeah Roy Dotrice was the man in the first 3 books. I made a mistake up there. I didn't buy all of them, a buddy of mine gave me the first three off a flash drive but I liked them so much I purchased the other two. A lot of people got ornery when he changed some of the voices in the later books. I'll admit it was a bit jarring but I wasn't about to complain, he's pretty damn good, and I just came off listening to some Wheel of Time audiobooks by Michael Kramer who was pretty good too.
Supposedly in an interview one of them said they weren't too fond of Stannis' character. I don't know if its true or not since I haven't heard it myself, but my inner pessimist is inclined to agree. It seems in a lot of these books nobody (including the authors sometimes) likes that characters I like. Lots of people seem to think Melisendre is controlling him and is behind him burning people alive. I never really saw it that way, and I'm really not that bothered by it either. The worst things Stannis has done pales in comparison with likes of Joffrey and Ramsay/Roose Bolton.
I really, really like his character. He's presented as the underdog and is uncompromisingly just. I'm not a fan of the Game of Thrones, the game of political intrigue I mean, I think a lot of it is petty and ultimately comes back to bite everyone. I LOVED the fact that Varys and all the others in King's Landing were absolutely terrified of Stannis because they knew he'd burn them ALL alive. Also, from what my friend has told me, he meets with a banker from Bravos... which means what Tyrion said in the recent episode is going to come to pass. Stannis is losing money, but the Iron Bank of Bravos looks to be in a position to finance him against Cersei and everyone else. I'd love to see him win, but I doubt he will... he's too old and borderline "good" enough that I worry RR Martin has something horrible planned for him. I could see him fighting a horde of wights and going down fighting believing he is Azor Ahai, or something.
The actor playing Ramsay can indeed look terrifying if he wants to be, but also innocent too. He was in a show I watched a while back with a friend from Uni who got British channels in his apt. I'm interested in his character for a few reasons, the main one is his apparent use as a tool by RR Martin to comment on rape and how its effects go beyond the actually act of the rape. I say apparent because that never struck me when reading it, so it might be a bit of a reach. I don't know about you, but I tend to be somewhat dense when it comes to veiled commentary on social issues in stuff like this.
The thing with Tyrion is that he isn't supposed to be a paragon of virtue. I thought a main theme of these books was to strip away the "good" and "evil" labels and say that people can be both. That is to say, one isn't good in these books, they are simply less of a dick than everyone else, but a dick nonetheless. I would agree with the assessment of Tyrion needing that moment, but like you said he is the "leading man" of sorts. Also, I feel it would be redundant to make Tyrion hate Tywin more, he has plenty enough reason to hate him and he hasn't even been blamed for Joffrey's death yet. The actress playing Shae is... off putting to me. I'm not quite sure what accent she is supposed to have, but it just sounds off. All I'll say is she doesn't nail it like the actress playing Cersei does.
As for the changes and people liking them, I'm somewhat neutral on that. I don't overtly HATE any of them.. yet. I did like the introduction to the brotherhood without banners. Thoros is one of my favorite characters, just incredibly well written. I liked how they were introduced as jovial and somewhat carefree. We'll see what happens when Beric Dondarrion shows up.
I didn't HATE his voice acting performance, but it was...pretty out there. All the girls (and Tyrion) sound like leprechauns. I think I'm spoiled by Stephen Pacey's amazing reading of First Law.
I recall Donal Noye stating that Robert was the true steel, and that Stannis was too brittle to be a good leader. I think that bears out. Like Ned, Stannis's inflexible adherence to law and rule paralyzes and limits him. And unlike Ned, there doesn't seem to be a river of compassion underlying it...Stannis is a hard, cold man. His ruthless single-mindedness makes him a frightening opponent, but I wouldn't say he was "good" in any real sense.
It'll be interesting to see how they evolve Ramsay. I don't know about rape specifically, but Martin certainly used him to good effect to show the kind of damage that can be done to the human spirit through torture and manipulation. Ramsay Snow makes Joffrey look like Hot Pie. I don't think the worst of his many excesses can be brought to the screen without giving the show an NC-17 rating, but hopefully they can establish him through implied violence. I found the Theon/Reek chapters in ADWD particularly hard to read.
Shae sucks. Her character re-write sucks, and the actress playing her isn't doing anything to make the character stand out. If she's not dead by the end of next season I'll be greatly disappointed.
I hate Shae's changes, I hate the Jeyne/Talissa swap, and I hate that they took Sandor/Sansa's interaction and gave it to Littlefinger. Aside from that, I've grudgingly tolerated the changes, even though some of them were awful (Qarth) and others butchered the pacing (Arya).
It's important to show the Brotherhood as lighthearted and cheery. It makes their eventual decline that much more poignant, and by the time Stoneheart has the lead they're downright sinister.
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