You can't have a discussion about the myriad changes in GoT from book to screen without some wag horning in and announcing that television is a visual medium and that some changes are necessary, as if that wasn't perfectly evident to anyone with 10 working brain cells. As annoying as things like 15 guys attacking King's Landing in the penultimate battle of Season 2 is, or a Dothraki horde of 30, it would be churlish to complain. Martin's works are primarily renowned for their dense world building and massive cast of characters, and there was no way they would ever have made the translation to screen completely intact. Before the HBO series was announced I always declared the series was basically unfilmable, and while I'm still not entirely convinced by the results I think they've done a decent job with extremely difficult material.
That said, the OP is 100% correct. There are a lot of deviations are are just confusing, if not straight up irritating. Jeyne Westerling into Talissa being a major example of this. This is where we get into changing things just to change them, and quite frankly almost without exception the changes have been abysmal. With the exception of a few strong scenes, the off-book material has been cringe-inducing with its awfulness, the nadir being Dany's atrocious season 2 arc. The Qarth chapters were never strong to begin with so you can forgive them for trying, but they took something weak and made it comically bad. This is a problem with deviating from acclaimed works of fiction. You're seldom going to one-up the original author.
El Danny said:
All you guys complaining about the changes in the TV series do realise George RR Martin plays a major role in the shows plot development? Most changes are ran though George before they're written in, or are his ideas to begin with.
That's not saying much. If you paid attention to his blog leading up to the release of the series, you'd have noticed that Martin had a major case of the fanboys going on. He seems absolutely tickled pink to see his material up on the screen, and I suspect he's not too arsed one way or the other about changes. That's fine if he approves the changes...they're his books and ultimately it's his show as well...but that doesn't make them good changes.
Nouw said:
W-wh-what? People complain about that kind of detail? I imagine they'd also complain about the omission of Tom Bombadil *shudders.*
The sharpest complaints about Jackson's changes to LOTR have always been about the characters. Like Far-From-The-Book-amir. I've never heard anyone carping about the length of Gandalf's staff, although...heh...that sounds kind of bad. Go go double entendre.
Innocent Flower said:
I can understand daenerys being 20 or so rather than 13. But at the same time there's scenes were she's pretty much a female viserys. She's supposed to be the prince that was promised and an amazing mother to her people. We're supposed to think that she'd make a better leader than joff//rob/balon/renly/stanis/drogo/tommen/tommen's cats yet she's fucking not. I think most people agree with me on quarth.
I don't know where you are in the books, but there's been more than one sign that Daenerys has a touch of the old Targaryen madness. I'm not entirely sold on her ability to lead a nation.
Maybe you should stop watching the show and just read the book. Whenever you create something for TV, you aren't going to be able to do it word for word. You also really shouldn't. There is nothing wrong with them taking a slightly different approach to things. If it was all word for word from the book, wouldn't that be kind of you know...boring? Since you already know everything that is going to happen. I think it is a lot better to just kind of make the show its own thing.
For instance, why invent a new wife for Robb? What's wrong with Jayne Westerling? it would not have taken any more time to explain who she was than it did to have Robb meet this other woman. I can't even remember her name. As far as I can see the change serves little purpose at all. I'd e happy to be corrected on this, if anyone can see a reason.
I figured the reason for that was to keep Robb in the show. IIRC, he is gone fighting in the Westerlands (where he meets jeyne) and isn't seen for almost the entirety of book 2, and I think in the show he is among the fan favorites. Changing his wife and the circumstances surrounding it was an easy way to keep him in the show for season 2.
I can't really recall, but did Robb even go to the Westerlands in the show?
First, for someone who claims to like the books better, you sure as shit didn't pay atention to proper nouns.
It's Jon Snow, not John Snow.
It's Daenerys, not Danaerys.
It's Harrenhal, not Harrenhall.
It's Qarth, not Qaurth.
It's Pyat Pree, not Pratt Prie.
Second, those are petty complaints. Daenerys' story in ACoK was fucking boring. The show added some much needed excitement to the whole thing. Arya's conversations with Tywin in the show were outstanding, and would have been impossible if they followed the original story exactly.
Third, who are you to complain? George R.R. Martin is executive producer (and occasional writer) on the show. If he didn't think the changes were for the better, he'd have blocked them.
The sharpest complaints about Jackson's changes to LOTR have always been about the characters. Like Far-From-The-Book-amir. I've never heard anyone carping about the length of Gandalf's staff, although...heh...that sounds kind of bad. Go go double entendre.
I fully see where you are coming from but it is a different medium and it occurs with every book to screen adaptation.
Having finished reading the original novel of "let the right one in" and then watching the film ("let me in" for the remake) I found many sceens that i felt key had been cut or only lightly touched on.
It is the interpretation of the text from a few people. Not every sceen chosen will please all people but it is what the shows creators think is the most important that they kept. If they put in every detail it would be to long so they have to chose what they think is the most important for a newcomer rather than a seasoned reader of the books so they can get a wider audience and in my opinion they did a damn good job.
Lets assume for a second they keep things word for the same as to what happens in the books, you would go mental bored out of your mind before too long. Massive fanatics would tune out as they'd know what was coming next to the letter. By having small changes (sometimes for budget admittedly) they manage to keep it fresh enough to keep you questioning enough as to what will happen.
Side note I am glad that Danerys is slowly becoming the equal judge she is meant to be instead of the spoilt brat she ain't.
Second, those are petty complaints. Daenerys' story in ACoK was fucking boring. The show added some much needed excitement to the whole thing. Arya's conversations with Tywin in the show were outstanding, and would have been impossible if they followed the original story exactly.
Qarth in the books was bad. Qarth in the show was fucking atrocious. The only exciting part was sitting on the edge of one's seat to see how bad the dialogue would be in the next segment. Arya's conversations with Tywin were fine, but the original Harrenhal sequences in the books were fantastic as well, it was a sidegrade at best.
Kakulukia said:
Third, who are you to complain? George R.R. Martin is executive producer (and occasional writer) on the show. If he didn't think the changes were for the better, he'd have blocked them.
Second, those are petty complaints. Daenerys' story in ACoK was fucking boring. The show added some much needed excitement to the whole thing. Arya's conversations with Tywin in the show were outstanding, and would have been impossible if they followed the original story exactly.
I have to say that i really hate the arya/tywin scenes. Not because they were not in the book, but because they make the whole chapter of Aryas journey way less realistic.
They even show us that Tywin knows that Arya is a noble from the north and yet he doesn't do anything about it, something that makes no sense. Tywin is not someone who would let a possible advantage slip through his fingers.
I can't believe the amount of petty bitching on this thread. Game of Thrones as a TV series has been almost universally acclaimed, it is up there with the best television around. Sure it's not perfect but neither are the books (or anything). Why don't you all just stop whinging and enjoy it for what it is. If you think you can do it better go out and do it yourself.
I don't think anyone is asking for a verbatim adaptation. It wouldn't be possible, not without a show that is hundreds of hours long.
There's a great distance between staying in absolute lockstep with the novels and changing things just to change things, and doing a bad job of it.
And I wouldn't hold up "The Walking Dead" as a successful example of anything. If there is a show on television with more dire pacing problems than Game of Thrones it's The Walking Dead.
I don't know where you are in the books, but there's been more than one sign that Daenerys has a touch of the old Targaryen madness. I'm not entirely sold on her ability to lead a nation.
Im waiting for the winds of winter. I haven't read the last few in a while, but i didn't pick up anything about her being mad, though i remember her being awful with hostages. I think tyrion noticed that the blue haired boy was rather reckless. But i think if daenerys is mad it's probably because of the shit she's gone through, rather than her being a genetic lunatic.
I've already got a truck of theories for the books. (and yeah, there's far to much foreshadowing when it comes to a few characters. I'm sure of the fates of Cersei (Exactly sure), all the 'starks' but rickon and sansa. Daenerys i expect to live past a certain point but i'm not sure about after that.
Prophecies are the worst plot device.
Kakulukia- Yet you knew what each of these misspellings meant and so did everyone else. There's little reward for pointing them out.
I've already got a truck of theories for the books. (and yeah, there's far to much foreshadowing when it comes to a few characters. I'm sure of the fates of Cersei (Exactly sure), all the 'starks' but rickon and sansa. Daenerys i expect to have live.
Really? that's how you see her? Odd, because that isn't the impression of her that I personally get from the show. I see her as a young and inexperienced woman, who finds herself in a position of power, and is unsure what to do for the best result. She's figuring it out as she goes, making the best of what she's been given. Which is pretty much how she is in the books. Sorry but I think you are misreading the actresses performance in the show, she doesn't come off as spoilt and spiteful at all.
Innocent Flower said:
In the books Jon,Arya, daenerys, bran,rickon theon and many others are far better characters.
Really? Hard to say they are better characters in the books, because they got almost zero page-time in the series. GRRM spent so much book time focusing on Sansa and Cercie and the court insanity...sorry intrigue, that we barely saw anything of what Jon or Arya or Bran were doing. They'd get maybe a 2 page chapter, then we'd have to suffer through 200 pages of internal dialogue from Sansa's point of view. Sorry but I think the show has done a spectacular job of fleshing out Jon, Arya, Bran, etc given the minimal amount of source material to work with. The sad reality is that, regardless of how awesome these characters are, and indeed they are awesome, GRRM simply did not put any focus on them in the first few books. I've yet to read the most recent published book, but up to that one, they were the "meanwhile above the Wall" kind of cutaway thing, he would stick in. He'd give us a teaser bit of the actual cool stuff going on, and then bore you to tears again with more of the political plot. So as far as the material the tv show is working off of, they simply have to make up more of what these characters are, compared to the source material.
*blinks* Uh, no, sorry I don't agree with this at all.
Innocent Flower said:
Her stay in Harrenhall for instance is entirely different. in the tv series it's shallow. In the books there's a lot of character development for Arya in Harrenhall. The names she gives to Jaqen and the manner she gives them to jaqen allow for far less character development. The way she's taken to Harrenhall is different. The way she rarely sees Tywin is very important (how could you forget to say his name when he's right there like in the tv series?)
Well of course there is more development in the books. The Song of Ice and Fire series is FULL of internal dialogue of the characters. We see what they are thinking and why, which is completely lacking in any visual media that doesn't involve a narrator. The actors have to try and convey with expression and body language, pages of internal conflict/debate/resolution, and that's not always an easy thing to do. The expression for "I'm slowly converting my mind into a sharp blade of hate and vengeance against this man and his family, might also look a lot like the face for "can I hold this fart in or should I sneak it out and hope they don't notice?" That's a comical example of course, but you get my point. And also, you and I might look at the same expression from the actress playing Arya, and come away with completely different interpretations of her internal thoughts. Based on your opinion of her character, I would say that's exactly what's going on.
In the third book she kills the ticker and his men in an inn with the hound, she reclaims needle during this fight. How can she fight them in the tv series if they're already dead?
Maybe the producers/writers felt that it would make better narrative sense/flow to have that particular situation take place with a different character? GRRM has said himself in the commentary that he has made the story so thick and complex, that it's simply too big and unwieldy for a tv show. Hell, that was what he set out to do when he first made the books. To make a story that wasn't constrained by the limitations of tv and movies. Well he did that obviously, and now he's having to make radical changes to things to make it fit into the tv show. Things have to change for various reasons.
Innocent Flower said:
Books- One of her handmaidens doesn't survive the red wastes. She sends out her bloodriders in three directions from an abandoned city, one of them comes back with pratt prie, xaro and the vieled woman who wish to take her and her dragons back to the city.
Tv series- She sends out bloodriders. One of them dies. another comes back telling of a city. When she gets to the city she begins making death threats. Then a guy cuts his hands to let her in.
Maybe the actors for those 3 characters weren't available to shoot the "come riding into the desert to welcome you" scene? Maybe that was shot 3 months before at the beginning of filming, and then 3 months later, when Pratt Prie, Xaro and the other members of the 13 could all be on set at once, they shot the "welcome to Qaurth" scene? As far as the part about her death threats, she seemed to me, to be pretty desperate and exhausted at that point, and was just flailing about, hoping to get a result. You go walking through the desert for weeks with little food/water and see how coherent your train of thought is.
Innocent Flower said:
Books- People offer her gifts, xaro (who's hinted at not being hetrosexual) wishes to marry her for her dragons, she is trying to buy ships. She's politely invited into the house of the undying with the promise of knowledge.
Tv- Xaro has a wonderful vault with nothing in it. He betrays her for dragons with the warlocks. Her dragons get taken, because dragons let themselves be taken. xaro's only prize for the betrayal is one of the handmaidens.
The Undying's invitation was nothing but polite in the TV show. ^_^ Creepy, yes, but very VERY polite.
Innocent Flower said:
also in the books the Reeds arrive before theon arrives. They become good friends with bran and hide with him in the crypts during the sacking. None of this creepy bullshit that they seem to be doing in the tv series.
Again, this is due to the limitations of tv. Some of the elements that happened later in the series, have been moved up for plot flow purposes. This is just going to be a reality of the show. Ask yourself "What difference does it make who hid Bran in the crypts? And what difference does it make if the Reeds join them a few weeks later in the overall journey?" So what? They're still with Bran now, and able to fulfill their role to the story, the only thing changed was their introduction to the audience. Possibly they did it for a more dramatic scene? Perhaps it was a spot where it didn't make sense for them to be hanging out in the crypts, given the location of the crypts. Really, who cares? It's a fairly minor point about the progression of plot/characters, and if this is the kind of thing you are going to get upset about, then perhaps you shouldn't watch the show. I doubt such things are going to stop happening, so you're probably just going to work yourself up over fairly trivial aspects of the story.
Really? Hard to say they are better characters in the books, because they got almost zero page-time in the series. GRRM spent so much book time focusing on Sansa and Cercie and the court insanity...sorry intrigue, that we barely saw anything of what Jon or Arya or Bran were doing. They'd get maybe a 2 page chapter, then we'd have to suffer through 200 pages of internal dialogue from Sansa's point of view. Sorry but I think the show has done a spectacular job of fleshing out Jon, Arya, Bran, etc given the minimal amount of source material to work with. The sad reality is that, regardless of how awesome these characters are, and indeed they are awesome, GRRM simply did not put any focus on them in the first few books. I've yet to read the most recent published book, but up to that one, they were the "meanwhile above the Wall" kind of cutaway thing, he would stick in. He'd give us a teaser bit of the actual cool stuff going on, and then bore you to tears again with more of the political plot. So as far as the material the tv show is working off of, they simply have to make up more of what these characters are, compared to the source material.
Really. I can't recall the exact allotment of time to each individual character, but I believe either Dany or Tyrion had the most POV chapters, with Jon right behind them. Sansa has had little attention since Storm of Swords, serving mainly as a window for Littlefinger's machinations. Bran has a ton of chapters in both SoS and ADWD. I'm actually kind of confused what books you're reading. I suspect you are letting your distaste for the "boring political plot" color your impression of which characters are getting the most attention.
That said, I think the portrayal of Jon and Dany on the show has been more or less fine.
Happyninja42 said:
Maybe the producers/writers felt that it would make better narrative sense/flow to have that particular situation take place with a different character? GRRM has said himself in the commentary that he has made the story so thick and complex, that it's simply too big and unwieldy for a tv show. Hell, that was what he set out to do when he first made the books. To make a story that wasn't constrained by the limitations of tv and movies. Well he did that obviously, and now he's having to make radical changes to things to make it fit into the tv show. Things have to change for various reasons.
Well, again. Anyone with common sense knew the books would need to be GREATLY condensed to fit into a 10 episode per season television show. At twice the length you'd still need to cut gratuitously. That's part of the reason I forgive the show somewhat for its absolutely dreadful pacing issues...I know they have entirely too much material to cover and nowhere near enough time to do it justice.
There's condensing, though, and then there's just dicking around to dick around. I've yet to hear a satisfactory explanation, for example, of the Jeyne/Talissa swap, or the complete re-write of Shae's character, or the removal of significant tracks of Sansa/Sandor's interaction so that we can have another 10 minutes of Roz looking gormless. You can't just throw a blanket over every bad decision make by the show runners and say "they were difficult books to bring to the screen". Of course they were. They get infinite laurels for even TRYING to do this. They get plenty of shit for the things they screw up for no good reason. One does not cancel out the other.
I've already got a truck of theories for the books. (and yeah, there's far to much foreshadowing when it comes to a few characters. I'm sure of the fates of Cersei (Exactly sure), all the 'starks' but rickon and sansa. Daenerys i expect to have live.
I hadn't considered that. I honestly expected that she'd bring her dragons to the wall though (they're the ultimate otherkilling machines) . The knights watch also being armed with wildfire at somepoint.
Other theories of mine (absolutely massive spoilers)
-Jamie kills cersei
-Arya can't quite pick up the nihlism of the house of black and white. Because black and white are stark colours.
-Jon's the third dragon. i suspect he gets the white one. That Reed guy will tell him what happened in the tower of joy. or perhaps a weirwood witnessed a confesion
- Jon's not fucking dead. Or perhaps he gets a new human body at some point.
with Less founded evidence, i'm also going to say that:
i suspect gendry becomes an important character for arya at some point. Though there's a chance she's sent against daenerys.
Tyrion gets the rock. he's loved too much to not too.
sansa learns a lot from littlefinger.
Varys will die. Though i expect him to meet daenerys first.
Rickon is crazy.
Brienne/jamie is saved by the shout of 'arya'
Victarion will lose his fleet to daenerys
Syrio isn't dead. There's even a chance that he's the faceless man who became jaqen used the position of her dance master as a cover. ( he isn't found on the wall of heads, yet there's a faceless man in the black cells and he knew arya's name. though that could be contributed to him overhearing her.)
I'm probably forgetting a few things. haven't read the last three books in a while
i don't know why there's a faceless man infiltrating the maesters though. could someone explain why?
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