Game Theory: Why Final Fantasy is Anti-Religion

[Alterego-X]

Having a binding creed, holy book or church hierarchy are mostly Western religious phenomena. Even if you take Eastern religions like Shinto in their golden days they'd still not look like 'religions' to most Western standards. And almost no Japanese person is going to say religion is important in their life, doesn't change that they turn to Shinto traditions when they need to pass an exam, pass a wayshrine, celebrate newyear etcetc...

My point exactly. Final Fantasy, and japanese media in general are not so much anti-religious, as putting an entirely different importance on religion, and portraying WESTERN style organized religions as something scary and alien.

It's a mistake to overanalize FF's "shocking" take on religion, where there is only culture shock between two different expectatios of religion.

Not Christian =/= Not Religious.

I know. If I would have wanted to talk about the least Christian country, I would have named Iran or Afghanistan. Japan is one of the the least *religious* ones.

 

[MonkeyPunch]

Oww. New found respect for Final Fantasy then and almost makes me want to play them. Almost.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

It just seems to me that the Japanese have no problem using religious imagery for their antagonists. And I'm pretty sure this isn't exclusive to Final Fantasy.

 

[Saltyk]

Reading the comments here makes me think back to when Jim was first uploading videos to the Escapist. Man, everyone hated that guy. Then, he causally states that he is playing a character and suddenly everyone was in on it and knew it all along.

Oh, and members of the Escapist calling out the narrator of a video for being smug. Man, I just find that too funny.

Anyway, I saw this Game Theory a long time ago. I still enjoyed it, though. I knew about FFX's and FFT's obvious dislike of organized religion already, but it was still interesting to hear someone to explain it. And even if Final Fantasy Legend is not part of FF, it's still fits the theory. Rather nicely, really.

 

[Atmos Duality]

I got about a minute into the video before I turned it off. Nope. Game Theory is still too annoying for me to bother.

I dunno, is schadenfreude part of the appeal here?
People comment about how annoying it is and then others get to laugh at said comments?
What is the appeal of presenting a subject by being extremely annoyingly smug?
I don't get it, and I certainly don't want to watch it.

So it's time for a new rule on my end: I'll watch the Escapists' shows (and their ads) when their "style" isn't based entirely on being intolerably smug and insufferably annoying. The subject and message are fine, by the way, I wouldn't have clicked the video if I wasn't interested in them.

Say what you will about Yahtzee and his endless fits of cynical condescension and smugness, at least he offers comedic wit backed by a strong, creative grasp of the English language. He's proven more than capable of sharing and explaining his thoughts in a way that doesn't immediately make me regret watching/reading.
He's even offered great commentary before in lieu of mindless cynicism a few times.

A cheap animation of kicking someone in the balls complete with annoying commentary isn't entertaining or particularly informative. This is the sort of presentation I'd expect to be a fake show in Idiocracy.

So until the Escapist realizes that "Deliberately, insufferably smug" is an unacceptable way to pitch any show, let alone its "smart show", I'm not watching until then. And no, I don't care if that's Game Theory's schtick. The schtick adds nothing to their message and overtly subtracts from it.

The Internet is a big place, and I'm tired of lowering my standards just to tolerate content that barely elevates itself above clickbait and trolling. Seriously, the Escapist used to be better than this.

That said, I will attempt to be fair. So here's my take on the first minute of the video.

*fanboy caricature battle segment*
I seriously doubt many (if any) gamers, let alone FF Fans, are going to actually be upset over this.
Why? Because the 90s came and went already. Sorry I had to ruin the joke, but this was old hat back in 2004, let alone 2014.

Japan has crapped out YEARS worth media that exploits religious references.
All religions even, not just the Abrahamic and India-Hindu religions.
(Some of them are even respectful towards the religion in question, but that's going further afield than intended)

Square, in their creative heyday, were no exception.
I have no idea who in your audience would be shocked or angry at this, but the vs fanboy disclaimer segment comes across as needlessly defensive and immature instead of preemptively clever.

~1:10
"I don't think FF fans have actually realized how religious references are used."

Damn near EVERYONE figured that out over a decade ago.

Square wasn't exactly being subtle.
The endgame content for FF6 and FF7 both end with you killing a mad "God" and a "Fallen Angel" respectively, all set to music with heavy, obvious divine overtones (Sephiroth's famous god choir, the first 3 movements of Dancing Mad).

FF Tactics is even less subtle and beats you over the head repeatedly with the Glabados Church's corruption and it's PAINFULLY OBVIOUS twisted repainting of Christianity (right down to the 12 disciples and Germonick, er, Judas).

You, the HERETIC, is the hero because you "lost your faith" (read the Germonik scriptures; that's a literal quote) because you learned the truth.

And those are three of the most popular games in the FF series.

 

[Asita]

Stupid Western concept of Religion. Most Religions outside of Western Judao-Islamic-Christian religions don't have a concept of "Our god is the one and most perfect god there is". FF6 was a good example of Christianity vs Japanese Spirit worship. Unless you're going to claim that Spirit Worship isn't religious the claim that it's Anti Religious is clearly false. The expert explained it right Game Theory got it wrong, and Game Theory clearly didn't understand the experts explanation.

Under Game Theory's logic you'd have to conclude the Norse Religion was Anti Religion because Odin as one of the most untrustworthy figures to the point of being called Odin Oath-Breaker. However, the Norse Religion is a religion and can't exactly be Anti Itself. Clearly having evil manipulative creator gods doesn't make you anti-religion. In fact, given the trace record it's almost a prerequisite.

So very much this. The video suffers greatly from lack of knowledge of general religion and as consequence its very Christian-centric position. One thing that must be understood is that many faiths actually make use of flawed and even evil deities as part of their pantheons, and more than a few mythologies include deity deaths in their repertoire. You ever hear of Egyptian deity Osirus? Killed and mutilated by his brother Set (god of storms, disorder and violence, among other things) out of envy. The Shinto goddess Izanami? Died giving birth to Kagu-Tsuchi (who in turn was then killed in a fit of rage by Izanagi). Most of the Norse pantheon? Fated to be slain during Ragnarok. Special mention, however, goes to Baldr, the god whose murder earned Loki his bondage until Ragnarok. Cronos? Attempted to kill each of his children before ultimately being killed by Zeus.

Point being that there's a longstanding history in the various religions of treating deities as very humanized individuals who can and are killed as part of their mythology. And this is before we even get into the context of the stories themselves, before we so much as touch on the idea of false prophets and gods, or even those who misuse their power (How did it go in later Stargate seasons? "It is not their power we doubt, but their worthiness as gods"?). That's not anti-religious, that's culture shock.

 

[Something Amyss]

Why Final Fantasy is Anti-Religion? Maybe because it's from the least religious country on Earth?

It doesn't stop them from having a tooooooooon of religious (and more relevant, Abrahamic) iconography, and often in a positive sense.

I mean, you don't have to be religious to use iconography. I'm an atheist who uses a ton of religious elements and references in basically any art I do (mostly written). Doesn't mean I love Jesus, but at the same time, being secular or non-religious doesn't mean you're going to create anti-religious messages.

I really don't like the game theorist, like someone said they present valid opinions, but they act so smug like their the first ones who figured it out and everyone else was in the dark.

See, I've never picked up on the smugness. I have, however, noticed several of the theories are half-baked and poorly rationalised. I still think the series is fun, though. I mean, I can get why some of the issues, especially ones like these, might be of a sensitive enough nature to set someone up, but I don't get the smug comments. It's infotainment presented in an infotainment style.

What gets under my skin is that "Nuke the Church" is the only plot we ever seem to get.

I mean is it too much to ask for a Good monotheistic religion in a game?

In an FF game or in games in general?

Because I could swear I've seen positive (monotheistic) religious messages in games before, but as I try and name one, I do find myself coming up blank.

 

[Sheo_Dagana]

Oh wow, I had totally never thought of this before... Oh wait - yes I have. 'cause ya know, I'm a person that plays story-based games, and having played every Final Fantasy game available, it was a pattern that's pretty easy to pick out. Bravely Default, which is basically just another game in the FF series as far as I'm concerned, also had this aspect going for it. I mean, they basically beat you over the head with it in Final Fantasy Tactics. Anyone that has missed this endlessly recurring theme across the series has either only played a game like VIII, where it isn't incredibly prominent, or just hasn't been paying attention. So, ya know, thanks for the year old video about stuff we've all already known about for a really long time.

What I would like to see is for Final Fantasy to go down a less obvious route in future games since this theme is getting a little old. I mean, even in Final Fantasy 14 you join up with an organization who's main purpose is slaying the Primals, who are, for all intents and purposes, gods of the various beastmen tribes. I know organized religion can become corrupt and all, and it's not that I don't disagree, I just think Final Fantasy could really stand to tackle a less trodden theme, but I also understand that organized religion is an easy target that makes it simple to raise the stakes by making you face off against the "One True God" at the end of the game. But I'm getting kind of bored with that.

 

[Quickman]

Japan has always had a "no foreign beliefs", ultraconservative approach to other religions (most notably "Abrahamic ones") within their society. I recently read an article on how Japan views the wars in the Middle East. They saw it through the eyes of a hands off observer. Look at how they saw Christian missionaries back in the day. It's an eye opener.

- Sephiroth represents the Judaic Moschiach run amok and against the world.
- Kefka was a Greek-esque personification of a mortal man becoming a god.
- St. Ajora in FFT directly paralleled Yeshua Christos and was seen as an inhuman monster threatening man in the form of an ancient demon.

This article comes as no surprise.

 

[XavierPrice]

>Claim Final Fantasy 10 is your favorite in the series.
>Use intentionally awkward scene out-of-context to get a laugh.

SO ORIGINAL! I'm so sick of people referencing this as a terrible scene. It's intentionally awkward. Seriously, look it up in the Japanese. It's just as awkward sounding!

Oh, and... Rawr, video against final fantasy bad... or something. *shrugs* I guess just insert FF Fanboy rage here or something to that effect.

 

[Flunk]

Depends which Final Fantasy. FFX where you literally fight against a corrupt church that tries to keep everything in a endless spiral doomed to repeat itself, yeah I can see why a religious person might take that as anti-religious. Particularly the organized type of religion with temples and services and clergy. But generically anti-religion? Not really, most Final Fantasy games have a lot of references to actual factual gods that really exist. And in some of them gods actually show up and do things.

It doesn't really matter it's not like those games are meant to further some political motive, I don't think they're meant as anything more than entertainment.

 

[lostlevel]

Some interesting points, though I'd heard a few before, FF has always had broad references but FF6 is much more blatant then I remember and so I may have to replay it out of curiosity.

Just one more thing, why did he saying Final Fantasy "X" instead of Ten?...

 

[tzimize]

There's a way to present a theory that everyone figured out years ago without coming across as infuriatingly, intolerably smug. Let me know when you figure it out.

Yeah...this was pretty awful overall :\

 

[endplanets]

If you are interested, a similar thing happens in the old game Guardian Heroes.
In one of the ending you go to heaven, kill god (who bizarrely looks a lot like Yu Yevon from FF8) and return to earth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5rDNPascaRc#t=656


I always interpreted these "kill god" storylines as having more to do with
free will,
the indomitable spirit of man,
love of freedom,
breaking the chains that bind you,
screw "the man",
always move forward,
root for the underdog,
what a twist,
etc. Also, what is cooler than killing god. Killing a king, an arch-mage, or godzilla, that's all well and good, but killing god is a step up. Granted this is the American point of view rather than the Japanese creator's but there should be a little cross over. The reason's given in this vid are great.

 

[Nieroshai]

Stupid Western concept of Religion. Most Religions outside of Western Judao-Islamic-Christian religions don't have a concept of "Our god is the one and most perfect god there is". FF6 was a good example of Christianity vs Japanese Spirit worship. Unless you're going to claim that Spirit Worship isn't religious the claim that it's Anti Religious is clearly false. The expert explained it right Game Theory got it wrong, and Game Theory clearly didn't understand the experts explanation.

Under Game Theory's logic you'd have to conclude the Norse Religion was Anti Religion because Odin as one of the most untrustworthy figures to the point of being called Odin Oath-Breaker. However, the Norse Religion is a religion and can't exactly be Anti Itself. Clearly having evil manipulative creator gods doesn't make you anti-religion. In fact, given the trace record it's almost a prerequisite.

Judaism, islam, and Christianity are middle-eastern religions. Catholicism and all of its spawn are western. I don't mean to nitpick, but misspeech tends to beget misinformation VERY easily here on the webz.

Maybe you should bother to look up what are nitpick [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_religion]. Or would you have preferred the Abrahamic reference?

Judaism, founded in a currently unknown location, probably in Mesopotamia. Christianity, founded in Israel by people claiming to have known Jesus in life. Islam, founded in Mecca, by Muhammad. All of those locations lie roughly east of anything we would even call "West."
EDIT: Before you continue to "correct" me, please make sure all you're doing isn't just reading off of a list.

 

[endplanets]

What gets under my skin is that "Nuke the Church" is the only plot we ever seem to get.

I mean is it too much to ask for a Good monotheistic religion in a game?

Do Kid Icarus, Painkiller, League of Angels, and Diablo count? I have never played any of these games but I think they count.

It's not hard to make a good monotheistic religion, but it is much easier and cooler not to.

In almost all fiction you need an underdog. A good guy going up against a more powerful enemy. If the main character is part of the good monotheistic religion there isn't much that can stand up against them. Especially if its a Christian-ish god because then you could just have god auto-win the game for you. It would be like making a Human vs Alien story where humanity is stronger than the aliens. Not saying its impossible, since you could be fighting an equally powered demon army or tracking down hidden cultists could be cool (like playing as a soldier tracking down evil Lacee in FF13). Just that its way easier to make the religion evil and have the hero fight them.

Likewise, the forces of good are actually good and just winning is kinda bland. Its way more interesting to have sinister forces within a good organization. A little moral ambiguity can go a long way.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Do Kid Icarus, Painkiller, League of Angels, and Diablo count? I have never played any of these games but I think they count.

-Kid Icarus: The first one, yeah. Though Palutena doesn't really do anything but damsel duty.
In Uprising, she definitely has a bit of a control freak mean side to her, though she ultimately works to protect humanity.

-Diablo: "...the machinations of heaven are unfathomable. ~Deckard Cain"
Tyrael seems to be the only angel who openly acts to protect humanity and Sanctuary. (as of Diablo 2 anyway, I didn't touch Diablo 3 because fuck Diable 3 and its always online bullshit)
I should note that Tyrael isn't really God either.

-Painkiller. Haven't finished it.
-League of Angels: Never heard of it.

 

[Alterego-X]

It doesn't stop them from having a tooooooooon of religious (and more relevant, Abrahamic) iconography, and often in a positive sense.

I mean, you don't have to be religious to use iconography. I'm an atheist who uses a ton of religious elements and references in basically any art I do (mostly written). Doesn't mean I love Jesus, but at the same time, being secular or non-religious doesn't mean you're going to create anti-religious messages.

There is a difference between being secular, and being a throughly secular culture to which organized religion itself is foreign.

Christianity is to Japanese works, is what voodoo or buddhism are to Hollywood. A cool exotic "magic system", portrayed with little care about respecting the spiritua beliefs of it's actual followers.

I'm just saying, FF s pretty run of the mill in that regard. After all, wasn't Evangelion infamous for it's meaningless iconography too? And there was

 

[gridsleep]

I read exactly this argument in an article at least a couple of years ago. Now I have to go find it. This has already been done.

Oh, and I'm back on the hatred for the Capcha thing just to get permission to post a message here. The one below wants me to enter a phrase glorifying Time Warner Cable where I used to work and who do not deserve it in the least. If I were a more petty individual I would declare that I am never going to read the Escapist again if it is being paid for by Time Warner Cable. Because they are evil. You know how Harry Potter felt about Dorothy Umbridge? That's how I feel about Time Warner Cable. And there is a woman who works at TWC who is the physical and spiritual twin of Dorothy Umbridge. Believe me, she is real and she exists to make people miserable.