"Gamer Entitlement": Current state of gaming journalism and industry

GloatingSwine

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There's not been anything from Capcom or Ninja Theory about the cause of poor sales, that all appears to be coming from gaming journalists. Journalists with an incompetent grasp of the english language at that. Anyone who uses the should of when they mean have should have (and isn't still in primary school) needs to be publically flogged.
 

bastardofmelbourne

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Savagezion said:
Do you have a link to the actual statement made by Capcom if there is one? I can't find an actual statement but the gaming media is reporting the unit expectation drops and then bashing the fanbase.
That's the other problem I have with the OP - it's sort of loosely conflating the opinions of the gaming journalists with the opinions of Capcom and Ninja Theory.

Which is important, because the only people I've seen really bashing the DMC fanbase are the journalists, but the OP and others are acting as if it's been Capcom hurling shit the whole time.
 

King Billi

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shadow skill said:
SonOfMethuselah said:
There's just one problem, it doesn't matter if they have the right to be mad. It is immaterial to the entire situation, they changed things from the way they were and therefore had to know it was going to cause a problem. They proceeded to insult the previous design. They made their own problem far worse than it had started out being by trying to pretend that they were trolling, by creating a meme about the hair which their industry agents (The gaming press.) gleefully repeated, and by saying that he [Tameem] did not care about fan reaction. They came to the whole thing with an air of disrespect for the source material and it shows. Who in their right mind would think to insert himself so deeply into an already established franchise the way Tameem has? Why is his twitter id anywhere in this game? Who decided to put that stupid scene with the mop in the beginning of the game?

They didn't just change things from the way they were, they changed things into something far worse than what we had before because they don't understand what DMC is supposed to be. It isn't supposed to be an overly serious yet simultaneously laughable social commentary. Dante isn't supposed to be Nero. Who couldn't admit to themselves that this wasn't working?
When this game was first announced and the fan criticism and doubt first came to light Ninja Theory had two options how they could choose to deal with it.
1: They change Dante's design to look more like the old Dante and alter the general tone and design of the entire game to try and placate the angry fans... Or.
2: They stick to their guns and hope that they can bring everyone over to their way of thinking and embrace their unnique vision for this character and franchise.

To me the second option is by far the better one and I've said before that I have alot of respect for Ninja Theory for standing by their creation and not giving in to the critics.
Ultimately though they didn't handle this choice very well at all and only ended up causing themselves more problems down the line but that dosen't make it the choice wrong without question, it only makes their behavior and the way they chose to deal with it misguided. Like you said yourself they made their own problem much worse but only through stupidity and ignorance and not genuine disrespect like alot of people seem to think.
 

shadow skill

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GloatingSwine said:
There's not been anything from Capcom or Ninja Theory about the cause of poor sales, that all appears to be coming from gaming journalists. Journalists with an incompetent grasp of the english language at that. Anyone who uses the should of when they mean have should have (and isn't still in primary school) needs to be publically flogged.
Come on, who do you think is really saying all this? It is Capcom and Ninja Theory through their proxies the gaming media. Can you honestly say to yourself that the media really doesn't know about all of the reams of detailed breakdowns of what makes this game a failure? Does some of the stuff that has come out of Brenna Hillier's mouth not tell you that there is active shilling going on?

Ps. You misspelled publicly. I expect you at the town whipping post by sunrise tomorrow morning. :p
 

DSK-

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I honestly had to laugh at the OP images regarding Bioware. In my opinion there are a minority of gamers who genuinely feel entitled to things that they want in the game; the rest of them just want to support the games and developers they truly love and enjoy.
However when developers make decisions that raise a few eyebrows and they ask about it the developers get pissy and call them entitled.

I may be viewing such things with rose tinted glasses but meh.
 

SonOfMethuselah

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shadow skill said:
They didn't just change things from the way they were, they changed things into something far worse than what we had before because they don't understand what DMC is supposed to be. It isn't supposed to be an overly serious yet simultaneously laughable social commentary. Dante isn't supposed to be Nero. Who couldn't admit to themselves that this wasn't working?
I accept your premise, and will concede the argument if you do one thing for me: as a collective entity, I want fans of the Devil May Cry series to explain to me just what it's supposed to be, and how the new title fails to meet that standard. If you can come up with a coherent argument that you can all get behind, then I will graciously bow out. The way I see it, if there isn't an underlying reason that's common to you all, then there was no way Capcom or Ninja Theory was going to win, and their reactions to your complaints were completely justified.
 

shadow skill

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SonOfMethuselah said:
shadow skill said:
They didn't just change things from the way they were, they changed things into something far worse than what we had before because they don't understand what DMC is supposed to be. It isn't supposed to be an overly serious yet simultaneously laughable social commentary. Dante isn't supposed to be Nero. Who couldn't admit to themselves that this wasn't working?
I accept your premise, and will concede the argument if you do one thing for me: as a collective entity, I want fans of the Devil May Cry series to explain to me just what it's supposed to be, and how the new title fails to meet that standard. If you can come up with a coherent argument that you can all get behind, then I will graciously bow out. The way I see it, if there isn't an underlying reason that's common to you all, then there was no way Capcom or Ninja Theory was going to win, and their reactions to your complaints were completely justified.
Dante is supposed to be carefree, he is supposed to be upbeat, he is supposed to be generally good natured(Spelling?). In otherwords he should have been the character that he was in 3 and 4 at a minimum. Not who he was in two (Two-Face.) or an even meaner version of Nero.

Notice how I left out the purely visual changes as his appearance is probably more malleable.
 

WanderingFool

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DSK- said:
I honestly had to laugh at the OP images regarding Bioware. In my opinion there are a minority of gamers who genuinely feel entitled to things that they want in the game; the rest of them just want to support the games and developers they truly love and enjoy.
However when developers make decisions that raise a few eyebrows and they ask about it the developers get pissy and call them entitled.

I may be viewing such things with rose tinted glasses but meh.
Same here. As much as I dont like the ending of ME3, I felt that on a whole the game was actually very good, maybe the best in the series. As for DmC, I was disappointed for about a month, than realised that I really didnt care that much for the series. Since I didnt have that big of attachment, I realized that I didnt really didnt have a problem with the new Dante. In fact, while I dont think I said it here, I did end up supporting the decision of NT.
 

SonOfMethuselah

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shadow skill said:
Dante is supposed to be carefree, he is supposed to be upbeat, he is supposed to be generally good-natured(Spelling?). In other words he should have been the character that he was in 3 and 4 at a minimum. Not who he was in two (Two-Face.) or an even meaner version of Nero.
But as this is a younger Dante, doesn't it make sense that he hasn't quite reached that point yet? After all, he doesn't even know he's the son of Sparda until he's told as much, so you have to assume that he hasn't yet reached the point where he's assured enough in his own abilities to be that cocky (because, let's face it: that's what he was). Yes, he's not the Dante you know at this very moment, but you're not even giving him the chance to become that Dante, something which, given time, I'm sure he'd do. After all, while it's overused, the "unsure of himself until forced into proving himself" story arc is infinitely more interesting than an arc with no significant change. You're not even giving him the chance to reach his potential, as it were.
 

shadow skill

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SonOfMethuselah said:
shadow skill said:
Dante is supposed to be carefree, he is supposed to be upbeat, he is supposed to be generally good-natured(Spelling?). In other words he should have been the character that he was in 3 and 4 at a minimum. Not who he was in two (Two-Face.) or an even meaner version of Nero.
But as this is a younger Dante, doesn't it make sense that he hasn't quite reached that point yet? After all, he doesn't even know he's the son of Sparda until he's told as much, so you have to assume that he hasn't yet reached the point where he's assured enough in his own abilities to be that cocky (because, let's face it: that's what he was). Yes, he's not the Dante you know at this very moment, but you're not even giving him the chance to become that Dante, something which, given time, I'm sure he'd do. After all, while it's overused, the "unsure of himself until forced into proving himself" story arc is infinitely more interesting than an arc with no significant change. You're not even giving him the chance to reach his potential, as it were.
His current aesthetic does not even match with his fighting style it is thematically wrong to have him even move the way that he does because the visuals don't support it. There is a reason why you wouldn't be able to make DMC work if you substituted the kind of character Dante has been with Kratos. The aesthetics and motions of the character don't work for this set of games.

This game's aesthetic is in a word, filth. So just how is anyone supposed to freely accept a stylish fighter who dresses like a bum? His fighting style should have matched the filth aesthetic that they had going, in the same way that Kratos' fighting style matches the aesthetic of brutality that is present in God of War. Him becoming that Dante makes even LESS sense given the current aesthetic.

Dante states in the game that he passed the time since being separated from Virgil killing demons. He has already been into Limbo, so what narrative reason is there for him not to be cocky even before he gains access to his Devil Trigger? (In other words DMC3 all over again.) They just went with a trope that their narrative gave them a way out of from the very beginning. Hell why didn't they just give us a game with Nero a character who isn't quite as powerful or experienced as Dante is even in this narrative?
 

Savagezion

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bastardofmelbourne said:
Savagezion said:
Do you have a link to the actual statement made by Capcom if there is one? I can't find an actual statement but the gaming media is reporting the unit expectation drops and then bashing the fanbase.
That's the other problem I have with the OP - it's sort of loosely conflating the opinions of the gaming journalists with the opinions of Capcom and Ninja Theory.

Which is important, because the only people I've seen really bashing the DMC fanbase are the journalists, but the OP and others are acting as if it's been Capcom hurling shit the whole time.
Yeah, I was beginning to wonder. That's pretty two-faced of journalists too as they think they are helping Capcom, but actually, they are making them look bad.

Hell, that's the reason I got suckered in to this thread. I think gaming journalism has a some big problems with their code of conduct today and I see a small trend happening in the industry that could become a problem but hasn't made it yet.
 

mxfox408

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Draech said:
GloatingSwine said:
Who's trying to argue that a single cutscene which represents a tiny fraction of the game is an accurate representation of Dante's design again?

Oh right, it's YOU.

For ALMOST ALL of the new DmC Dante looks like he does on the front of the box, and he's a brown haired white male, the same as ALL THE OTHER brown haired white males in videogames.

It is YOU who is trying to cherry pick a single cutscene, rather than the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of the product.
You need to point out where I dont regard the black hair Dante as being partly represented through other material. otherwise I am not cherry picking. I Have been going on complete image over and over now. I dont know how i can make it clearer. He is black Haired yes, but that is not all he is.
mxfox408 said:
Then why are you here attacking people for forming an opinion before purchasing a product? Yes there are people who want its destruction, you cannot stop that from happening. I fail to see how that's relivant to this topic. If an industry wants customers it will pretend to listen at the very least or have better PR reguardless of the idiots out there, otherwise it just turns people off when a professional company is acting immature about it. I have no idea why your arguing that point of justifying developers acting like a bunch of Jr high kids instead of the paid professionals they supposedly are especially the money that comes from customers who have certain expectations of the product they are buying. At this point I have to assume your trolling based on a biased opinion you formed about a game you like.
I am here attacking the idea of forming an opinion incomplete information and fan overreaction. I have at multiple occation said that voting with you wallet after you have a good amount of information. Even going as far as standing by the principals of being somethings being more important than the quality of teh game

Yeah I completely get that "They are treating us like crap. They wont see my money" and that is great, However like I said before if you honestly believe it ends right there then you are lieing to yourself. Some want to see it burn. Some want vindication.
I discourage how the developers act

Being needlessly confrontational and generally unprofessional wont serve you when you are trying to launch your brand regardless if you are in the right or not. The problem with my post there is more than anything that fan covers a fairly wide demographic that are both reasonable and unreasonable. The problem as far as I have seen it is that either a small part of fan demographics (all of them more or less) are getting louder or just moving further away from the reasoned part.

Let me take a second to make clear that it is specific behavior I am condeming and not fans as a whole.
Note that reading this again I feel the need to clarify that the "all of them more or less" I mean all different mediums and not all of DmC fans.

Again.
I have at multiple times renounced the behavior of the developers and the so called gaming press calling them "just another marketing arm".

If I sound annoyed it is only because this is like the fifth time I have had to repeat myself and my position because it keeps being misrepresented like you just did now. By using quotes of stuff I have already said.

Frission said:
So that's what you think of the fans deep down when you strip away all the rhetoric.

Fans were told to vote with their wallets and when they did the producers were surprised and blamed the fans. It doesn't matter what this whole fiasco is about.
SPECIFIC BEHAVIOR! THE QUOTE YOU HAVE IS ABOUT SPECIFIC BEHAVIOR! MAKING HATE ABOUT A SERIES 1 YEAR BEFORE IT LAUNCHED IS NEITHER REASONABLE NOR HEALTHY! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!
can you site your claims regarding "MAKING HATE ABOUT A SERIES 1 YEAR BEFORE IT LAUNCHED"? Like I said you cannot stop idoits from being idoits about they way they act reguarding the game prior to launch. with that being said what doest this post have to do with that? The only person who continues going on and on about it is you, when this post was clearly about devolopers being dickheads.
 

mxfox408

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Draech said:
mxfox408 said:
can you site your claims regarding "MAKING HATE ABOUT A SERIES 1 YEAR BEFORE IT LAUNCHED"? Like I said you cannot stop idoits from being idoits about they way they act reguarding the game prior to launch. with that being said what doest this post have to do with that? The only person who continues going on and on about it is you, when this post was clearly about devolopers being dickheads.
Follow the bloody quote back and you will find its not me making the claim and it is.
Draech said:
xPixelatedx said:
Draech said:
xPixelatedx said:
-snip- for space
The problem is that the critique didn't show up before the those series were out.

It did with DmC.
...Maybe you should look up some history on Loonatics. It's seething hate came over a year before it's first airing. People were even making hate art of it, it was amazing.
In that case they were not any different, but equally disgusting and childish behavior from self entitled man children.
Really I am getting pretty fucking sick of people trying to argue something I am not saying.

Not my fault you cant bloody read and that I have to go through the fucking thread quoting myself in an effort to prove what I said.

Yeah the developers were being dicks, but there is an active effort to whitewash the fans here. Like someone before me pointed out.
bastardofmelbourne said:
What I'm getting at is that there's a difference between these two statements;

1. Capcom says it's entitled to at least five million sales of its video game.
2. Capcom says that negative fan reaction contributed to lower-than-expected sales.

The first point is what the OP is arguing against. The second is what Capcom's actually said. The second point is way more reasonable, and I agree with Capcom; it's entirely possible that the bad press caused by fans would hurt sales. It doesn't take a genius to work through that logic.

There's just a huge difference between estimating that your game will shift five million copies and saying that you are entitled to five million sales.
Not that different a message than what I did as the 3rd post of the damm thread.
Draech said:
I think you are missing the overall message of the articles.

The companies are not entitled to the money. They are not even trying to argue that.

What is going is being highlighted is a direct fan vendetta to a reboot.

We are going to use DmC as an example.

DmC is a solid game it its own right. It has its problems ofc, but solid non the less. However there is an utter refusal to judge DmC on its own merit because there is an entitlement of the old fans to right of ownership. They are fans and therefore DmC was theirs. And so a game wont get judged on its merits, but rather on how much homage the fans receive.

Essentially a fan scorn is a destructive force to your sales beyond the one sale they represent.

So many "fans" dont just want to pay the ticket and get a show. They want an ego stroke along with their ticket. And when their ego stroke is denied they rage. "How dare they change the franchise I helped build! How dare they not make the game for us! We made the game succeed!" and thus the quality doesn't come into the picture anymore. It just become an issue off how much the core can be catered to.
Now in hinsight yeah I do not do a good enough job of not painting all fans with one brush. And it is something I have clearly paid for during this thread.
What do you expect, people have expectations and when they are no met they have all the right to ***** rant and trash it all they want just as you have all the right to defend it. period. Yes some Fans go way overboard with the udder destruction of it and yes I may not like that either but for you to make a blanket statement like "I do not do a good enough job of not painting all fans with one brush" is just being Condescending so what the hell kind of reaction did you expect?
 

MrHide-Patten

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Dicks will shout louder than people who are happy and complacent. I fathom a bit of the scorn with the recent Dead Space 3 turning into something I'd rather it didn't, but I'll vote with my wallet, easy peasy.

Contrast to DmC and Mass Effect 3 with some of the ways the "fans" were raving I'm surprised there weren't articles from dev's quoting how the "fans" could go fuck themselves. As a creator and game dev I sympathise with developers and to some degree publishers, whilst lots of people like to visualise them as the devil and modern day Nazis the fact of the matter is, is that these are just people doing their jobs.

The uproar that the fans caused over these two games is two of the worst flare ups I've ever seen and make me feel embarrassed to be associated with them. Big dev?s will never make their fans happy if they constantly capper to their demands, because as soon as they cave in they stagnate and next thing you know all protagonists will be wearing red hats and blue overalls because fans have made dev?s afraid to displease them.
 

Therumancer

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My basic attitude is that gamers, as the ones paying, ARE entitled in a very genuine sense. Fans of a franchise are likewise entitled to specific expectations being met as that franchise is continued.

I think a big problem is that the gaming industry increasingly wants to "dial it in" and get upset when it doesn't work, one of the reasons so many gaming companies are fleeing to the "casual space" of "i" devices and their ilk where there is at the moment little expectation other than the constant production of shovelware, and where something of a little higher quality than the rest of the garbage stands out more simply because of the overall lack of competition.

Add to that incredibly greedy marketing, something that is even affecting "app space" now that bigger companies are going there (wanting microtransactions increasingly placed in the apps you pay to download), with companies expecting constant, monster, profits for very little in the way of actual work, and you see the problem.

I think games like DMC and the reaction they get is due to the over-franchsing of the game industry. The trend where to try and maximize profits, all game companies want to do is add a new subtile or 1 higher number increment to existing IPs to try and keep selling to the same fan base. Combined with their other tendencies you basically see them trying to shoehorn what they feel like developing into a franchise, rather than creating new games conceived entirely for that franchise and continueing it, or taking the risk at launching new IPs.

For example with "Dragon Age 2" the thought processes were probably along the lines of looking at how popular action RPGs were, especially with the casual audience (many of whom think they are hardcore or serious gamers, but actually aren't, but that's another discussion entirely), along with the praise for Bioware's cinematics and storytelling. Not to mention the plans at the time for "Kingdom of Amalur" and a few other projects which were getting big hype. EA as a publisher probably told Bioware to create a brawler-style action-RPG, add in better cinematics, and then slap a "Dragon Age" label and art style/writing onto it and claim it's a sequel to get a built in audience. Trying to double up on what they projected for Amalur (which they put on Origin and such).

The results of course were to enrage fans because "Dragon Age" was supposed to be a spiritual successor to "Baldur's Gate" (a real time/turn based hybrid based on stats) and specifically stand out as a counterpoint to action RPGs. Not to mention the overall quality of the game with constantly re-used enviroments and such, and a really pained script that made one wonder if Bioware even remembered what they did in their first game, or if they were basically writing it based on someone else's notes without really remembering it.

The same could apply to DMC, create what amounts to a new Brawler with more simplistic mechanics to make it more playable by casuals who think they are hardcore, create a "cool" protaganist that fits with modern youth sensibilities, and then brand it with an existing franchise to get those fans involved, because they will buy anything with a label attached (which is why they try and make everything possible into a sequel).

Such are my thoughts. They basically try and treat customers like mindless sheep, because to be honest we as a group tend to be, but fail to realize that eventually the collective herd starts to wake up, and nobody likes being exploited and treated this way, not to mention the bottom line is we want our moneys worth and what we pay for, and not to be constantly gouged for a product we've already bought (or be told we don't own what we paid for). Now we're seeing a lot of QQing and attacks because a gaming industry that got complacent with it's exploitation is being forced to change and actually start really working again.
 

mxfox408

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Apr 4, 2010
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lol this video will clarify the OPs standpointhttp://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6814-Companies-Exist-To-Make-Money