I don't even know why I'm replying to this anymore, but go ahead and link me this indisputable proof that shows that all the lost sales can be attributed to Dante's new hair color.Draech said:
"Gamer Entitlement": Current state of gaming journalism and industry
- Thread starter Polite Sage
- Start date
I'll admit the story for Devil for devil may cry was never very good, however I fail to see how anyone could think the story is better in DmC, it's as if a 12 year old wrote it. Plus the old Dante is a much better character than the new one, yeah sure he was a bit of a pillick and deep down you know you shouldn't like him but that was part of the charm. He was a guilty pleasure a bit like Indiana Jones or James Bond, if they where real people you'd think they where complete twats however you can't help but love them on screen. The new Dante is just plain old unlikeable, he has no redeeming features whatsoever.Draech said:
I actually enjoyed DmC for what it was and I find the backlash excessive. I appreciate the very good PC port, they tied it up nicely by the end story-wise (no more consumerist dystopia, Dante stopped being a complete ass and can now open his signature demon-hunting service etc), and I believe if they go from there with more creative control from Capcom, they can make a very good sequel, that might even please the original fans. And I really hope they do, rather than sending the series back into limbo.
However, I absolutely can't side with the journalists trying to bring down the hammer on the fans, stating it was all about the hair color. There are sweeping changes in the gameplay, the skill ceiling, the thematic core of the series and the character of the protagonist. Refusing to look under the surface, and acknowledge these huge changes and their effect is pathetic. It makes it seem like instead of a journalistic and critical body, all we have is a bunch of glorified advertisers trying to push a brand, without caring at all about the creative message behind it.
However, I absolutely can't side with the journalists trying to bring down the hammer on the fans, stating it was all about the hair color. There are sweeping changes in the gameplay, the skill ceiling, the thematic core of the series and the character of the protagonist. Refusing to look under the surface, and acknowledge these huge changes and their effect is pathetic. It makes it seem like instead of a journalistic and critical body, all we have is a bunch of glorified advertisers trying to push a brand, without caring at all about the creative message behind it.
That still doesn't prove anything about the quantity of blind haters vs. rational fans expressing distaste at the quality of the product. I could as well say that me and my numerous friends decided to not buy DmC due to various good reasons and claim that my "proof" is automatically superior to yours. As you're the one who brought it up you have the burden of proof.Draech said:
In addition, I never made this thread to point out whether the journalists or the fans were "right" or "wrong" about the quality of the game (though I've made my own stance clear a couple of times already) or if the fans had enough impact to actually sink the damn thing, I made the thread to point out horrible business practices on both the companies and journalists' accounts. Even if hypothetically the "blind haters" were a majority it still doesn't excuse the reviewers flipping off actually rational consumers and putting paragraphs about "bitching and moaning" at the beginning of their god damn "unbiased reviews" and then expect people not to take notice and get offended by vulgar insults.
Like Stavros Dimou said in the earlier post, you don't see this kind of shit with any other entertainment medium. I'm pretty sure directors and other celebrities get plenty of death threats. But has anyone written a review for a movie where they openly insult the old fans? F.ex. Jim Sterling's article is just that; "Fuck you, I'm right, you're wrong, there is zero debate about this!"
Draech said:
So you blame the fans for not buying a game from a company that specifically said it doesn't care about the fans or their money and was looking for mainstream appeal? As Erik Kain said "It?s almost?almost!?as if some people think game publishers are entitled to sales regardless of whether or not customers particularly care for the product."
In reality the only person to blame for this flop is Ninja theory, they failed to market game correctly, they believed they could appeal to a mainstream audience and abandon there fans but it failed and they ostracised both fans and the mainstream and now they're trying to blame anyone but themselves for their own incompetence.
I'm going to answer on his behalf. Even before announcing DmC Ninja Theory has been considered a rather mediocre combat developer with horrible writers. All their previous games were written by outside people who commented about their jobs including "having to completely rewrite the game's story / characters due to it / them being so bad". DmC is written by NT's in house people. That and the DMC games (with the omission of usually hated DMC2) have been hailed as very solid hack'n'slash titles so it's no surprise people are worried about a mediocre developer being tasked with a western reboot.Draech said:
Well... their worries DID end up being justified as the new DmC is more akin to Heavenly Sword than a Devil May Cry game.
I'd generally agree with that. "Fans" are getting rather out of hand with the score bombing and wild overstatement of hatred whenever something changes in a beloved franchise. It can be very difficult to separate "fans" from zealous detractors sometimes.Draech said:
I can only speak to ME3 since I'm entirely unfamiliar with DMC, but that was a case of bad behavior on both sides. Bioware (along with a nice basting of EA) released a shoddy, slapdash conclusion to a prize IP. Dubious production values and questionable decisions that seemed to directly contradict previous statements were on display. This prompted a violent and exaggerated fan backlash, which Bioware initially responded to like a bunch of unprofessional twats. Thus, the circle of hatred was formed. In this particular case I'm more likely to put the lion's share of the blame with Bioware, as it's a smaller body of people and one that we should generally expect will behave in a professional manner when controversy arises. "Fans" are very difficult to police. It's a nebulous organization at the best of times, held together by only the most incidental threads of common purpose. There are people on this forum who agreed with me 100% on the ME3 issues whom I'd cross the street to avoid were I ever to encounter them in real life.
If you wait for "fans" as a collective to get their shit together, you'll be waiting forever. There will always be a demographic that behaves in an unruly fashion, and they will often be the loudest and most persistent. We can, and should, expect more from the companies. I was incredibly disappointed with Bioware's initial reaction to the ME3 controversy, and I've been an admirer of that company for many, many years. Far more disappointed than I ever could have been with just a bad game. Mass Effect is now considered to have one of the most broken bases in all of gaming, perhaps all of creative fiction...and IMO that shit is almost squarely on how Bioware chose to play their first hand.
As to the state of gaming journalism...it's a wreck, we all know that.
As to "gamer entitlement"...those who hold the rights to successful IPs are well advised to remember what made the IPs successful in the first place, and to treat the fans who pay their salaries with respect, if not necessarily giving in to overt fan service at every opportunity. And fans would be well advised to remember that the reason they became fans in the first place is they liked what these people were doing, and to give them some leeway to make mistakes. Creativity is not a binary process. You can't just turn on the "awesome" valve and rake in acclaim. Sometimes you will shit the bed.
How much hate there exactly was when the game got announced? As far as I've personally seen, read and experienced the game's expectations started going down the drain as more stuff was revealed, poor PR started happening and the demo got released. Even one of my friends was hyped for DmC due to hearing that Ninja Gaiden's developers were working on it, before me correcting and telling him that Team Ninja =/= Ninja Theory.Draech said:
And why would it not be justified? If it was announced that Michael Bay was rebooting Forrest Gump there would bound to be huge fuss. People tend to form expectations based on their previous experiences with the creators and original source material.
Entitlement.
I'm entitled not to spend my money where I don't think it would be worth it, and I am also entitled to speaking up about why I decided not to spend it. And this entire "guilt by association" nonsense being spouted all over the place is retarded.
I'm entitled not to spend my money where I don't think it would be worth it, and I am also entitled to speaking up about why I decided not to spend it. And this entire "guilt by association" nonsense being spouted all over the place is retarded.
But I did have an opinion and am not denying it. Formed from seeing the gameplay videos, hearing what people who played it at game cons had to say about it, obviously seeing the hilariously bad writing and then the horrible PR. It would be crazy to think there was anyone who didn't form SOME KIND of expectations at that point, be it good or bad.Draech said:
As for a "project burning to the ground"; most boycoters I've talked to generally wish the game to crash just so the old franchise would return. That's the very reason people staged "Operation Crazy", buying the HD collection with three original games instead of the new reboot on it's release date and voting with their wallets. They're the former core audience and I see nothing wrong in wanting to see worthy sequels for your beloved franchise. DMC HD collection lasted much longer on Amazon's TOP 100 lists than DmC did and I see no way that it's somehow actively hurting Capcom. But yeah, the journalists decide to attack the fans anyways for being "entitled".
It's very rare for a new incarnation of a franchise to fail and prompt a return to the old franchise. If Fallout 3 had failed, Bethesda wouldn't have said "Let's try again with an isometric, turn based game!". They just would've ceased to make Fallouts.Polite Sage said:
If i were a Dev or a Pub, i wouldn't give two shits about about "Fans" outside of Testers and Professional Critics except MAYBE when it comes to creating a sequel for my game. A big maybe, because i'm pretty sure most of the time numbers speak clearer than the incoherent noise of every gaming forum.
The Internet is a god awful place, especially when it comes to gamers voicing their opinion.
For every well-informed, well-spoken, maybe perhaps even constructive (!) criticism there are dozens of so-called opinions mainly comprised of bitching and moaning. For mostly everything but the most well beloved Franchises.
It must be awful for the game industry to hear endless over exaggerated complaints about how all of them are doing their job wrong in the most nastiest and often baseless and interestingly often hypocritical ways.
There, i said it. It may be overgeneralized and defending to things and business-practices i do not like myself, but i am sick and tired of Gamers complaining on the Internet.
The Internet is a god awful place, especially when it comes to gamers voicing their opinion.
For every well-informed, well-spoken, maybe perhaps even constructive (!) criticism there are dozens of so-called opinions mainly comprised of bitching and moaning. For mostly everything but the most well beloved Franchises.
It must be awful for the game industry to hear endless over exaggerated complaints about how all of them are doing their job wrong in the most nastiest and often baseless and interestingly often hypocritical ways.
There, i said it. It may be overgeneralized and defending to things and business-practices i do not like myself, but i am sick and tired of Gamers complaining on the Internet.