Gamergate, No "Right Side." - We Should Avoid Picking Sides

[Something Amyss]

"Gamergate is a hate movement"
"Gamergate is a bunch of men angry at women"
"Gamergate is a movement to harass people"

[citation needed]

And yet the media labels the entirety of GamerGate as misogynists due to the actions of only a few. Sometimes due to the actions of people who aren't even affiliated with GamerGate. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Well, 1, that's not hypocrisy. Hypocricy is saying one thing and doing another, like, say, insisting on journalistic ethics and then rallying behind Milo Yiannopoulos or not investigating claims before running with them. And when you do that last one, it certainly looks like Gamergate is a movement to harass people. 2, you're not providing any sources, so....

In fact, this is the third or fourth time I've been around on this with you.

It's funny you say that, I just read this particular article. http://pixietalksgamergate.wordpress.com/gamergates-misconceptions-thus-far/

You know, it's people like PixieJenni that makes me realize not everyone involved with Gamergate is an overly emotional child.

I think the best part is that I can't particularly tell where the author stands just by looking at that. I mean, if I did a count of the responses, it might favour one "side" or the other (really, it seems it does, but I haven't even heard several of these claims before, so I don't know who they'd be favouring), but it doesn't immediately read like an apologetic for any one perspective.

Granted, I also haven't fact checked every line, but it at least comes off as reasonable.

 

[Callate]

"Then from out of the blue,
And without any guide,
You know what your decision is,
Which is not to decide..." -Into the Woods

On one hand, I'm pretty much there with you. The more extreme members of both sides are an embarrassment. There's hardly a virtue to extol that they can't mangle with the very next sentence.

If I had a concern, though, it would be this: despite what some might like to believe, harassment and death threats existed before GamerGate, and will undoubtedly persist thereafter. But having had it confirmed that [there really is an organized conspiracy refusing to listen and working to censor their point of view/ there really are misogynistic basement-dwellers who are ready to go to extremes to keep women oppressed], taking matters out of discussion where there are the more moderate people to say, "Hey, cool it guys! Not okay!" is just going to leave the worst people angrier and more fed up than ever.

Score one for pessimism about the human condition, one way or another...

 

[Olas]

I don't really see how you can be in the "middle" of this issue. You either object to nepotism and corruption in journalism or you don't.

Basically, neutrality in the debate isn't a third side, it's just staying out of the debate. If you want to stay out of the debate then stay out of the debate.

 

[Something Amyss]

What's the use for me to enter the gaming industry if this is how the gaming industry acts?

Do you mean the fans? Because from what I've seen, most of the industry itself has been decent about the whole thing.

The fandom's response has been disturbing, and if that's your worry I understand.

 

[Erttheking]

What's the use for me to enter the gaming industry if this is how the gaming industry acts?

Do you mean the fans? Because from what I've seen, most of the industry itself has been decent about the whole thing.

The fandom's response has been disturbing, and if that's your worry I understand.

Funny story. Awhile ago I actually wanted a job in the game industry. Boy did those dreams get squashed out of me when I saw what I'd have to put up with from the community

 

[Erttheking]

What's the use for me to enter the gaming industry if this is how the gaming industry acts?

Do you mean the fans? Because from what I've seen, most of the industry itself has been decent about the whole thing.

The fandom's response has been disturbing, and if that's your worry I understand.

Funny story. Awhile ago I actually wanted a job in the game industry. Boy did those dreams get squashed out of me when I saw what I'd have to put up with from the community

Unless the job that you wanted involved PR or Marketing, you wouldn't be in a position to interact with the community at all, unless you voluntarily did so. And beyond that, you'd only be a "public figure" if you wanted to.

Of course, that wouldn't stop corrupt journalists from doxxing you. It's not the community you have to fear.

I wanted to be a reviewer. So no thank you. Don't need people telling me I'm biased every other review .

 

[Erttheking]

I wanted to be a reviewer. So no thank you. Don't need people telling me I'm biased every other review .

Oh, I wouldn't call that "The game industry".

Yeah, if you can't handle people verbally vomiting all over your work, you should probably never make any consumer-facing product ever, because this happens in every industry.

Yeah...thanks for the advice and all, but I already regularly post things online. I'm good. I just want nothing to do with people who will send me death threats because I don't like their favorite thing, or actually liked their not favorite thing. Which oddly enough seems unique to gaming.

 

[Something Amyss]

Read the main gg thread here. Do you see any actual misogynists in there?

You know, I have a friend who has possibly quite the Escapist over the harassment that has followed them for the gall of posting in that thread. They have definitely killed their Twitter account.

If being stalked online by people screaming at you and calling you a slut for nothing more than trying to have a conversation doesn't count as misogyny, then no. I don't.

 

[Erttheking]

Yeah...thanks for the advice and all, but I already regularly post things online. I'm good. I just want nothing to do with people who will send me death threats because I don't like their favorite thing, or actually liked their not favorite thing. Which oddly enough seems unique to gaming.

I'm sorry it seems that way to you, but let me assure you, you are wrong. Death threats because of subjective preferences exist everywhere.

Trust me. I've seen enough to make an informed decision. There's too much bullshit in gaming for me to even think about getting a job with anything that has anything to do with it.

 

[Popido]

I wanted to be a reviewer. So no thank you. Don't need people telling me I'm biased every other review .

Oh, I wouldn't call that "The game industry".

Yeah, if you can't handle people verbally vomiting all over your work, you should probably never make any consumer-facing product ever, because this happens in every industry.

Yeah...thanks for the advice and all, but I already regularly post things online. I'm good. I just want nothing to do with people who will send me death threats because I don't like their favorite thing, or actually liked their not favorite thing. Which oddly enough seems unique to gaming.

Gaming culture has become a vile toxicated community driven by hate. Games have for years promoted violence, misogyni and satanism towards the masses. Jack Thompson and other free-thinkers were right for calling the spewing cauldron of hate as it is.

Journalist have not lost contact with their audience, as there never was any contact to be had with. Just pure uncontrollable hate. Death threats, consolewars, fear and loathing. This is the culture of hate.

You do not want to work in this industry or promote it to the masses.

 

[Something Amyss]

Yeah...thanks for the advice and all, but I already regularly post things online. I'm good. I just want nothing to do with people who will send me death threats because I don't like their favorite thing, or actually liked their not favorite thing. Which oddly enough seems unique to gaming.

You know, I was watching a video last night, and the guy was asked how he felt about Anita Sarkeesian. Despite not being a gamer or into games, he's been asked this like four or five times, and he's always answered that he didn't have a problem with her or actually supported her. So I don't know what people are expecting.

Anyway, said YouTuber brought up the part where from the perspective of any other entertainment media (actually, I think he just said books and film, which is probably more accurate, given comics), this sort of criticism would be completely non-controversial. He even points out that you're still free to disagree with her, but that the bile she gets for simply making a critique is astonishing.

And I mean, I've thought this before, but it sort of codified it in my head: isn't it astounding how we have a movement that wants "better games journalism," but that balks at any criticism (including "he liked (game I dislike)" or "he didn't like (game I like)") and seems to want to be treated like special snowflakes?

And this isn't even about sexism, it's about puerile behaviour. I'm not sure why anyone would give an honest, ethical assessment of a game in this environment. I'm not even particularly sure why people would want to get in, knowing a balance tweak could get you threatened.

 

[Erttheking]

Trust me. I've seen enough to make an informed decision. There's too much bullshit in gaming for me to even think about getting a job with anything that has anything to do with it.

How many other consumer-facing (preferably internet-facing) industries have you been in, that allows you to make this "informed decision"? What was the price model like? In other words, was your content free for everyone on the internet, or was your content behind a pay wall of some sort? Was your content objective, or something subjective like a review or an opinion?

I've seen the way that people react to journalists. The sheer amount of bile that gets thrown their way. No. Fucking. Thank you.

 

[Something Amyss]

Funny story. Awhile ago I actually wanted a job in the game industry. Boy did those dreams get squashed out of me when I saw what I'd have to put up with from the community

Not too out there. A while back I wouldn't have minded writing in the industry (either actually writing games or writing game criticism).

These days, though? Yeah, I don't need my parents doxed. They have enough shit to deal with.

You could very easily fight back against harassment by compiling all the information you have on the subject of the harassment of your friend.

Awesome. I could compile information that could potentially tag an already targeted individual against their wishes to simply get away from the subject. If I'm too vague, GG says it's fake. If I'm not vague enough, I could endanger said poster's wellbeing. And, on top of both elements, it would mean dragging someone through something they don't want to be dragged through. And either way, the gamer base remains fragmented on party lines.

This sounds like a win-win scenario.

And that's ignoring the part where "fighting back" hasn't seemed to benefit anyone who's actually done it so far.

 

[Popido]

Trust me. I've seen enough to make an informed decision. There's too much bullshit in gaming for me to even think about getting a job with anything that has anything to do with it.

How many other consumer-facing (preferably internet-facing) industries have you been in, that allows you to make this "informed decision"? What was the price model like? In other words, was your content free for everyone on the internet, or was your content behind a pay wall of some sort? Was your content objective, or something subjective like a review or an opinion?

I've seen the way that people react to journalists. The sheer amount of bile that gets thrown their way. No. Fucking. Thank you.

Journalism has become a circus for gamers. They don't read what is being written. Journalist are just clowns to be mocked and fed to the lions. Gamers just want to see who is going to get fired next and ridiculated infront of the public. Its just a career suicide.

This culture goes way back into the demonic tabletop gaming of D&D and 40k. The early 2000's phase, gaming was all about spewing hate towards the industry, anyone who worked for it and the large publishers. Remember the AngryVideoGameNerd? Just had his movie made. All the videos he make are that hate spewing narrative, how everything is shit. How he fucking hates everything. The Escapist own Yahtzee is a relic from that era of hate.

 

[Erttheking]

Trust me. I've seen enough to make an informed decision. There's too much bullshit in gaming for me to even think about getting a job with anything that has anything to do with it.

How many other consumer-facing (preferably internet-facing) industries have you been in, that allows you to make this "informed decision"? What was the price model like? In other words, was your content free for everyone on the internet, or was your content behind a pay wall of some sort? Was your content objective, or something subjective like a review or an opinion?

I've seen the way that people react to journalists. The sheer amount of bile that gets thrown their way. No. Fucking. Thank you.

You didn't answer any of my questions.

I've posted stories online and wrote game reviews for my school newspaper. I had some commentary in the stories and I already got a fucking death threat over what I've written. So yeah.

 

[Popido]

I've posted stories online and wrote game reviews for my school newspaper. I had some commentary in the stories and I already got a fucking death threat over what I've written. So yeah.

To quote Poisson.

"this is videogames. this is what i get. this is unacceptable. this is not okay. terrorist. never again, you hear me? never again. this is videogames. this is your audience. to every aspiring game developer out there: don't. give up. it's not worth it. nothing is worth this. give up on your dreams. they are actually nightmares. just don't do it. RUN AWAY"

Do not even try to survive in this industry. Just give up. Its not worth it. The industry is not worth it. Don't. Just stop. They just want you to make ass of yourself. Don't even try. It's all nightmares. Get away.

 

[Something Amyss]

So you're content to just let evil an injustice propagate? You're content to just sit back and do nothing about it?

Oh, but you'll gladly bring up your anecdote in order to shame gamers whenever it's convenient for you. You're only benefiting from this "harassment" aren't you? It gives you ammo, doesn't it?

But when push comes to shove and you're tasked with actually making the gaming community a slightly better place, you reject that responsibility.

I see how it is.

If you see how it is, your strawman assessment certainly doesn't show it.

Did I mention the part where the individual doesn't want to be dragged through it? It's one thing to vaguely mention someone and another entirely to ask said person to actually participate.

If you want to make the community slightly better, maybe don't twist people's words then deride them based on that.

 

[Hap2]

If you'd like to create a new thread on the topic, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would appreciate seeing a break from the seven hundred and forty-six threads on fucking GamerGate.

I'm curious actually, why do people keep starting new threads about Gamergate?

Probably because the main thread is echo-chamber that doesn't allow for dissenting views. Why post somewhere you're going to get either shouted down for or ignored because it doesn't agree with the 'heroic underdog' narrative Gamergate likes to spin for itself. Hell, I pointed out a specific point where the thread was being hypocritical, and was slammed with strawmen arguments, people trying to claim I brought up Quinn when I showed it was a Gamergater who did without prompt from anyone else and explanations upon explanations to fit the narrative to keep painting Quinn as 'evil.'

Does that sound like a bastion of discussion to you? Frankly, it's stupidly hostile. I'm a media critic - by all means, I ought to be on Gamergate's side, but I'm not. If Gamergate wants to talk about journalistic ethics, then Gamergate needs to practice them itself. Right now, the only ethics I've seen out of Gamergate is what I expect from Fox News - spin the narrative, ignore hypocrisy and attack, attack, attack.

 

[Popido]

Does that sound like a bastion of discussion to you? Frankly, it's stupidly hostile. I'm a media critic - by all means, I ought to be on Gamergate's side, but I'm not. If Gamergate wants to talk about journalistic ethics, then Gamergate needs to practice them itself. Right now, the only ethics I've seen out of Gamergate is what I expect from Fox News - spin the narrative, ignore hypocrisy and attack, attack, attack.

What did you expect from a hate group that promotes rape and death threads? Ethics never had anything to do with it. They just want to get people fired from their jobs.

Its hate. Nothing but hate. The same juvenile hate Yahtzee promotes on this site.

 

[Popido]

Cmon, Escapist.

Choose a role and we'll dance to it.

Gaming culture is hate
Social Justice is absolute
Gaming journalism is a fucking joke

Thanks for helping us rig the game.

Not participating isn't a choice.

No matter what you do, it playes into our hands. Gaming is right now defenceless against another Jack Thompson. Questioning if virtual violence could cause real violence would then put the Misogyni arguement on risk. Keep fighting back and we'll welcome another Jack Thompsons into this arena. Let them escalate this shitstain of industry towards crash. Scare every casual from this circle with news of "death threats" and paranoia.

Let Social Justice become absolute. Why fight them when you can join them. There are no requirements to hold the banner of righteous. Did none of you ask "Where the fuck did the 4chan's grassroot movement vanish?". Remember when Zoe Quinn blamed 4chan for using hundreds of sockpuppet accounts? Poor girl pointed her finger in the wrong direction. SomethingAwful & StormFront were already in the helms of that movement.

Admit it. Gaming "journalism" is a cesspool.