Gamers make bad feminists

[SonicWaffle]

Negative. You have spent one of twenty questions.

Is it the name of a WWII-era tank commander, who served with distinction before finally catching a stray bullet and dying of his wounds three days before the war ended?

 

[lord.jeff]

While I agree that gamers generally make bad feminists (speaking as a woman myself) I do agree with them this time. Those assassins dressed up in cliché latex porn nun costumes with buy guns. And then all of them getting beaten up by a single man. And then how some of the camera angles were done in the trailer...it's very clearly the BAD form of sexualization.

And then there's games like Bayonetta, where I think it's actually a good quality of the game. A good form of sexualizaiton. Then there's also games like DoA. I don't have a problem with such games as well, as they specifically do it for the sexy girls in bikini's and such.

But in the new Hitman? Seriously? It's just...wrong. It doesn't fit, betrays what the hitman series is about and sexualizes women in a bad way.

I agree sexualization has it's place, several males have the fantasy of wanting to be the guy adored by every chick, or living in a society where leather clad goddesses are the norm and games like Bayonetta and most fighting games are great for that, even the Hitman trailer is so over the top that it's obvious sex for sales and not the down trotting of women. I think a bigger problem is with a game like Star War: Old republic that apparently doesn't even let you make a fat female character only a fat male.

Haha I've seen Jim Sterling called many things, but this is the first time I've seen someone call him "feminist."

Yeah my irony glad is about to explode. Anyone remember that long-winded debate he had with that one feminist a few years ago?

Is that the one where he called her a 'Feminazi slut'? How times change...

Could someone provide a link to that?

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

One thing that struck me about the trailer was how suddenly it wasn't so cool seeing Agent 47 break a woman's nose. Even though the woman was armed and tried to kill him and could still kill him it wasn't the same than if it was the bony face of a man. As much as I like Agent 47, I was rooting for team sexploitation.

Agent 47 has always been presented as like a biological robot, he is literally a clone, artificially created and grown, and that makes him ideal as a video game protagonist, easy for any player to control. He is in a similar vein as T-850 from the Terminator series just not a literal robot. So he isn't much of a male, he isn't much of a character, he's an blank tablet that players can make what they want of.

When I played Blood Money I spent ages trying to get the necklace off the woman without killing her or making her aware. Then again I did this with every mission of every game, I took it as my personal objective to be the perfect assassin, traceless and killing only my target(s) and being long gone before they ever even knew anyone had been murdered. I actually went far out of my way to make every death look like "an unfortunate accident".

My Agent 47 doesn't kill anyone unnecessarily. Other people play the character killing everyone who crosses his path. He is whatever you want to make of him. If that sexy-nun hitman trailer was a playable part of the game and I was controlling Agent 47, I'd have played and replayed the game till I found a way to get past the nuns without killing any of them.

But which Far Cry 3 trailer are you referring to? And which part do you object to in matters relating to sexualisation?

I am refering to the trailer that spawned the "look boobs"-comment from Jim Sterling, the strange "woman in bikini for no real reason" bit in particular.

As for the Absolution trailer, I kind of appreciated how it did not pull its' punches in regards to 47 being absolutely brutal to the women that were trying to kill him. The assassins were shown as competent killers, who unfortunately met an even more competent killer. The fact that it showed 47 hurting these women brutally in slow motion is not as much misogynistic as it is deriving shock value out of actually showing a man really hurting a woman. It is also a very clear way of sending the message that 47 doesn't really have a consciousness or a sexuality. Through the entire situation he never hesitates once or shows any reaction to the fact that he's killing women in revealing outfits.

I'll admit that I might be reading too much into a game trailer, but the more I watch it, the more I am beginning to think that IO really didn't mess up as much as their trailer got misinterpreted.

 

[SonicWaffle]

Well, except for killing all the men, but then you'd have a whole load of urinals to dispose of. Which would be wasteful, and where would you put them?

*shudders* Oh god, the horror!

Quite. You'd have to find uses for them, like...fuck, I can't think of a single good idea. Not now that we no longer need to place public troughs outside saloons for the horses to drink from.

Ah, well that's a bit of a relief at least. But honestly, semantics. If you agree with feminism and are in favour of equality, you can be counted as a feminist, it's not some exclusive club.

Then why did I have to give so much money to that nice lady who said she handled the memberships? I still haven't gotten my secret decoder ring, now that I think of it, and it's been much longer than the six weeks she promised it would take to arrive by mail...

I wonder how she'd allow for women who happened to have not faced discrimination

Presumably the argument would be that there's no such thing as a woman who hasn't faced discrimination, in some form or another, ever in her life.

or men who supported or stood up for women (say, mothers, partners or sisters) who did?

Feminist supporters. Not feminists themselves, but certainly useful foot soldiers. The word I've read bandied about on horrible, horrible places like LoveShy for these "traitorous, pussy-whipped males" is...sigh..."manginas".

 

[Treblaine]

Gwen from Torchwood

River from Firefly

Even Black Widow from Avengers was a strong female character

Buffy (Actually Joss Whdon has said that he is a feminist...sooo)

I'm afraid I didn't catch those )other than Buffy) but what is it about these characters that makes them both good protagonists and truly feminine characters.

 

[manic_depressive13]

Gamers make bad everything because the majority of the gaming community consists of socially retarded priveleged white kids with a persecution complex. Wah, the women want to dominate us. Oh no, the brown people want to take our jobs. We're having political correctness thrust upon us! Why can't we call people sluts and niggers? This is SO UNFAIR.

I just wanted to applaud you, good sir or madam.

I'm very flattered.

See, apparently it's fine for a contributor to this website to make juvenile and offensive comments about a woman, or to constantly see demeaning and unfair generalisations about women on the forums, but expressing the opinion that some gamers are juvenile man-children based on sentiments I have seen on this very site is deserving of a warning.

Okay Escapist.

 

[Superlative]

The general rule of sexualization
(as spoken by a strait, black, cisgender, male, united states citizen)

If she is wearing a few squares of latex because she likes it/ is empowered by it/ gains a strategic advantage by doing so and she knows it, then its not sexist. This is the equivalent of me walking around in a suit because i know i look damn sexy in that suit.

examples: Bayonetta and Ivy

If she is wearing a few squares of latex for the soul perpose of getting guys to look and the camera is constently zooming in on the goods, then its a bit sexist. if all women of bangable age are dressed in the same provocative way, then its really sexist. this is the equivalent of me walking around in that same suit, but this time doing so in the female section of the retirement home because i was black mailed into it.

note: cisgender means a person's sex and gender match.

 

[waj9876]

I love how everyone is avoiding just outright saying "A woman can be just as, sometimes even more, sexist against men." You guys feel the need to sugarcoat it to spare everyone's feelings. It's honestly rather entertaining watching you all rip into each other while being as pleasant and "Oh, I'm part of THIS group, but I'm a nice person" about it as possible.

I don't have much of an opinion on the trailer. Other than that I don't mind the violence against women. They were going to kill him. He killed them first. Gender doesn't matter.

 

[SonicWaffle]

Gamers make bad everything because the majority of the gaming community consists of socially retarded priveleged white kids with a persecution complex. Wah, the women want to dominate us. Oh no, the brown people want to take our jobs. We're having political correctness thrust upon us! Why can't we call people sluts and niggers? This is SO UNFAIR.

I just wanted to applaud you, good sir or madam.

I'm very flattered.

See, apparently it's fine for a contributor to this website to make juvenile and offensive comments about a woman, or to constantly see demeaning and unfair generalisations about women on the forums, but expressing the opinion that some gamers are juvenile man-children based on sentiments I have seen on this very site is deserving of a warning.

Okay Escapist.

Well, regardless of the point you were trying to make, you did overtly refer to a "majority" of your fellow posters as "socially retarded", which I'd call an insult.

Seems to violate the Don't Be Mean bit of the rules, even if your point is correct.

 

[KingHodor]

So I decided to play devil's advocate when I saw the Far Cry 3 trailer. Where's the outrage? The first thing you see is a topless woman. The game repeatedly flashes text at you, "fight, eat, fuck, kill" or something to that effect, stating these words over and over, drilling them in as facts, as if they are necessary for your survival.

Then it really begins. The naked woman croons seductively that you are a killer, that you are the best at killing. All those people you're murdering? They DESERVE to die. This is intercut with scenes of people being shot. Just when you think it's all over? RANDOM STRIPPER POLE. In the jungle, a woman poledancing in a bikini. For no reason that the trailer can adequately establish.

*snip*

Neither trailer upsets me. What upsets me is the hypocrisy.

Far Cry 3 takes places in a tropical island jungle setting, and your character apparently suffers from unsettling visions due to the ingestion of hallucinogens (and probably combat stress).
The setting kind of justifies the relative lack of clothing, and the stripper pole re-appears in the character's visions with his (male) archenemy dancing on it, so you can chalk that up to artistic vision.

So all in all, Far Cry 3 does seem to have some justification for the nudity and stripping, very much unlike Hitman (atleast I can't think of a reason for wearing an impractical fetish outfit underneath my disguise when expecting heavy fighting).

 

[Eamar]

I'm very flattered.

See, apparently it's fine for a contributor to this website to make juvenile and offensive comments about a woman, or to constantly see demeaning and unfair generalisations about women on the forums, but expressing the opinion that some gamers are juvenile man-children based on sentiments I have seen on this very site is deserving of a warning.

Okay Escapist.

Wait, you got a warning for that post??

Ok, so yeah- everything you just said about stupid generalisations about women on this site. The number of downright offensive posts I've seen here that are deemed just dandy... Also, how can it be that some of the posts here demonising feminists are ok, but gamers are some sort of protected species? Inconsistency, much?

Get a grip, Escapist.

 

[Eamar]

I'm betting that one of the people you called a retard reported your post.

I think the issue isn't so much that this particular post got a warning (he *did* make an offensive generalisation, after all), but rather that this post got a warning while the overwhelming majority of posts that show up on these forums making equally offensive generalisations about women do not.

Consistency is very much lacking here in terms of moderation.

 

[manic_depressive13]

Well, regardless of the point you were trying to make, you did overtly refer to a "majority" of your fellow posters as "socially retarded", which I'd call an insult.

Seems to violate the Don't Be Mean bit of the rules, even if your point is correct.

I said the majority of the gaming community, which doesn't consist solely of this site. Most gamers don't participate in the gaming community because they feel alienated by all the racism and sexism. I think it is ridiculous not to acknowledge that there are serious issues with the gaming culture, and it is perpetuated by a majority which is apathetic to (if not actively participating in) the often demeaning treatment of women and minorities. I was admittedly venting some frustration due to all the demeaning comments I have seen that have never been punished, but I don't think what I said was overly offensive or even inaccurate.

So basically what I'm saying is: SO UNFAIR.

 

[Melon Hunter]

I'm betting that one of the people you called a retard reported your post.

I think the issue isn't so much that this particular post got a warning (he *did* make an offensive generalisation, after all), but rather that this post got a warning while the overwhelming majority of posts that show up on these forums making equally offensive generalisations about women do not.

Consistency is very much lacking here in terms of moderation.

It can be the way it's said. I've noticed some users here have passive-aggressive posts down to a tee. Nothing actually reportable, but the offensiveness is there. On the other hand, if you start trotting out overtly offensive language like 'socially retarded', then it's going to cop a moderation. Personally, I agree with the sentiment, but given the language and the generalisation, I'd say that warning was fairly earned.

 

[SonicWaffle]

Well, regardless of the point you were trying to make, you did overtly refer to a "majority" of your fellow posters as "socially retarded", which I'd call an insult.

Seems to violate the Don't Be Mean bit of the rules, even if your point is correct.

I said the majority of the gaming community, which doesn't consist solely of this site.

Yes, but everyone on this website is a part of the gaming community. Otherwise we wouldn't be here. Ergo, the majority of us are "socially retarded" per your post.

I was admittedly venting some frustration due to all the demeaning comments I have seen that have never been punished, but I don't think what I said was overly offensive or even inaccurate.

Well, no, neither did I. Then again, I'm white, privileged, socially retarded and quite capable of admitting to it

 

[Fumbles]

Gwen from Torchwood

River from Firefly

Even Black Widow from Avengers was a strong female character

Buffy (Actually Joss Whdon has said that he is a feminist...sooo)

I'm afraid I didn't catch those )other than Buffy) but what is it about these characters that makes them both good protagonists and truly feminine characters.

They all have realistic skills. Are all strong, they all can exist without men. You can argue that Gwen from Torchwood needs Jack Harkness, but after she learns the ropes, she is a strong female character. As far as games go, I will have to say Fear Effect is the only one that comes to mind.

I do agree that most of this thread is, unfortunately, correct.

 

[Treblaine]

One thing that struck me about the trailer was how suddenly it wasn't so cool seeing Agent 47 break a woman's nose. Even though the woman was armed and tried to kill him and could still kill him it wasn't the same than if it was the bony face of a man. As much as I like Agent 47, I was rooting for team sexploitation.

Agent 47 has always been presented as like a biological robot, he is literally a clone, artificially created and grown, and that makes him ideal as a video game protagonist, easy for any player to control. He is in a similar vein as T-850 from the Terminator series just not a literal robot. So he isn't much of a male, he isn't much of a character, he's an blank tablet that players can make what they want of.

When I played Blood Money I spent ages trying to get the necklace off the woman without killing her or making her aware. Then again I did this with every mission of every game, I took it as my personal objective to be the perfect assassin, traceless and killing only my target(s) and being long gone before they ever even knew anyone had been murdered. I actually went far out of my way to make every death look like "an unfortunate accident".

My Agent 47 doesn't kill anyone unnecessarily. Other people play the character killing everyone who crosses his path. He is whatever you want to make of him. If that sexy-nun hitman trailer was a playable part of the game and I was controlling Agent 47, I'd have played and replayed the game till I found a way to get past the nuns without killing any of them.

But which Far Cry 3 trailer are you referring to? And which part do you object to in matters relating to sexualisation?

I am refering to the trailer that spawned the "look boobs"-comment from Jim Sterling, the strange "woman in bikini for no real reason" bit in particular.

As for the Absolution trailer, I kind of appreciated how it did not pull its' punches in regards to 47 being absolutely brutal to the women that were trying to kill him. The assassins were shown as competent killers, who unfortunately met an even more competent killer. The fact that it showed 47 hurting these women brutally in slow motion is not as much misogynistic as it is deriving shock value out of actually showing a man really hurting a woman. It is also a very clear way of sending the message that 47 doesn't really have a consciousness or a sexuality. Through the entire situation he never hesitates once or shows any reaction to the fact that he's killing women in revealing outfits.

I'll admit that I might be reading too much into a game trailer, but the more I watch it, the more I am beginning to think that IO really didn't mess up as much as their trailer got misinterpreted.

It's not misogyny on my part, but misanthropy: negativity towards men. I shouldn't like anyone being broken, yet for another Hitman trailer that showed 47 similarly destroying men that I have to admit I found that awesome and mentally egged 47 on hoping he'll keep going. From an objective standpoint 47's violence is equally justified, it shouldn't matter if man or woman, bullets hurt just as much whoever pulls the trigger (and evidence points that women are better shot*). But it's somehow different. IS that non-misogynistic sexism? Should I be fair and enjoy violence against women, even sexy women, as much as against men?

I can make the separation between fantasy violence and actual violence, the unusual outfits and cinematic poses help with that. It's violence that relishes the "realness" that this SHOULD happen like using actual people and relatable places and events, that I object to. We seem to like violence, no point in

There is nothing wrong with reading into something that sparked an unusual response. Really you aren't analysis the trailer, you are analysis everything around it and the trailer is just the talking point.

I too am less worried about the trailer each time I watch it, which makes me think it was just the shock of it all, not something irreconcilably wrong with it.

*Blame evolution for this. Men do seem to be hard-wired for fighting and hunting, but the fighting response doesn't suit precision that you'd need for a rifle. Male hunters often get "the sweats" when they get their targets in their sights, this suited early man when to hunt animals you needed a burst of strength to sprint and deal a powerful blow, but not with a rifle. The best shots are those who stay cool and detached and don't rush, what women's temperament have a predisposition to. I found it interesting there was this show called "Kill it, Cook it, Eat it" and they took a range of people from red-blooded males to peace loving vegetarian women. Turns out the Peace-loving Vegetarian woman was the best shot with the rifle and she was chosen to take the shot on a deer hunt and did a good job. The men just got too excited about the kill and their sights were shaking and snatched at the trigger. Everything in firearms training is training out male's natural instincts in fighting. Give any guy a spear or a club and he'll fight 90% as well as the best. In WWII where women still made up a comparatively small proportion of snipers they made a disproportionately large contribution.

 

[Eamar]

Probably because "women" isn't a member of The Escapist, so insulting "women" doesn't fall under the "don't insult other members" rule.

"Gamers" isn't a member of this site either. I don't follow?

 

[NiPah]

Well, the comments are about the E3 presentation, not Hitman. Hitman is just the day an insincere, ill thought out attempt at feminism became the cool thing to have.

Again, my issue is that manifestly insincere and reactive claims are being used, rather than the content of those claims.

I dunno, while impossible to prove I'd still argue that even if the Hitman trailer never came out Jim and Miracle would have said the exact same things. I don't think Jim or Miracle are insincere, I think Jim honestly does not like games using boobs to sell, and I'm guessing Miracle really doesn't think that personality makes a person sexy. Reactive? the only thing these statements are reacting to is videos at E3, you may argue these comments are connected to a general feminist movement spurred on by the debate on the Hitman video, and I'd point to their previous works to argue that they've always said stuff like this.

 

[SonicWaffle]

They all have realistic skills. Are all strong, they all can exist without men.

Really? River, much as I love her, is pretty much useless without her brother to look after her. That isn't anything to do with her sex, she's just fucking crazy, but it's still true.

I have a counter-argument for Gwen, too, but it's pretty much "she annoys the piss out of me" rather than anything constructive or canonical