Gamers make bad feminists

Kermi

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I wanted to soapbox about the Far Cry 3 trailer myself.

I personally thing the Hitman trailer was alright. It wasn't as controversial as people are making out. People claim it sexualises violence by endorsing violence against women - women dressed as sexy nuns out of context, even though the game is called Absolution, and you can assume there are going to be some religious undertones. It's completely plausible these women represented 47's primary threat in the game. It's not a staggering leap of logic, is it? No. The correct answer is no. In particular I want you to consider that 47 takes no pleasure whatsoever in his task of defending himself.

These women were a threat. Their initial appearance was "Boom! sexy nuns!", then they unleashed fiery hell on 47, or so it seemed. Then he took them out. The violence juxtaposed the sexiness, it was supposed to shock. If you think the violence was sexual, or sexualised, it really says something about YOU, not the trailer. But a few prominent commentators ran with it, and the internet responded.

I trot out the example that if we say Lara Croft gunning down a dozen topless men we'd say nothing, that they're employing a double standard. The commentators insist "oh, women can be killed like men, that makes it equal - but this is SEXUALISED violience".

I disagree.

So I decided to play devil's advocate when I saw the Far Cry 3 trailer. Where's the outrage? The first thing you see is a topless woman. The game repeatedly flashes text at you, "fight, eat, fuck, kill" or something to that effect, stating these words over and over, drilling them in as facts, as if they are necessary for your survival.

Then it really begins. The naked woman croons seductively that you are a killer, that you are the best at killing. All those people you're murdering? They DESERVE to die. This is intercut with scenes of people being shot. Just when you think it's all over? RANDOM STRIPPER POLE. In the jungle, a woman poledancing in a bikini. For no reason that the trailer can adequately establish.

"Surely," I thought, "the people outraged at the Hitman trailer will be up in arms about this. The people who were against sexualised violence, this must be reprihensible to them, right?"

No. No outrage. I posted my thoughts on Twitter. No one could understand where I was coming from. "They're just boobs!" they say, as if I am six years old, and am unfamiliar with the idea of nudity. Then they say "oh, well no one is attacking the woman, so it's not sexual violence."

Bull. Effing. Shit.

In truth, people didn't like seeing 47 kill women. They made up a complex lie to hide this fact. The fact that they, by taking issue with the idea of women as a viable threat and a target for violence, were being sexist. They were robbing women of the right to be targets, putting them below men by wanting them removed from the line of fire.

Neither trailer upsets me. What upsets me is the hypocrisy.
 

Guffe

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AwkwardTurtle said:
boag said:
Since we are throwing stupid sweeping Generalizations based on no facts whatsoever.

Cats are shitty pets.
Cupcakes are the best source of iron.
Feminists make great objective journalists
OMG You're the best. I shall join you.

Anime is the best form of story-telling!
Men who go by the name Yahtzee are objectively the sexiest men alive!
Catherine is the only game to spark a 'real' discussion on sex...EVER!
I'll join too!!!

Coffee fights early cancercells
Rats are the filthiest animals alive
Every asian guy is a ninja



I don't really have anything regarding the topic itself only that this thread is treally confusing. I've been reading page 1 and am completely and utterly confused
 

Ninjamedic

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Grey Day for Elcia said:
Am I in before sexually frustrated men comments?
..........I honestly have no idea.

OT: So the comments of a few people speak for an entire community/demographic?
 

jklinders

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Kermi said:
I wanted to soapbox about the Far Cry 3 trailer myself.

I personally thing the Hitman trailer was alright. It wasn't as controversial as people are making out. People claim it sexualises violence by endorsing violence against women - women dressed as sexy nuns out of context, even though the game is called Absolution, and you can assume there are going to be some religious undertones. It's completely plausible these women represented 47's primary threat in the game. It's not a staggering leap of logic, is it? No. The correct answer is no. In particular I want you to consider that 47 takes no pleasure whatsoever in his task of defending himself.

These women were a threat. Their initial appearance was "Boom! sexy nuns!", then they unleashed fiery hell on 47, or so it seemed. Then he took them out. The violence juxtaposed the sexiness, it was supposed to shock. If you think the violence was sexual, or sexualised, it really says something about YOU, not the trailer. But a few prominent commentators ran with it, and the internet responded.

I trot out the example that if we say Lara Croft gunning down a dozen topless men we'd say nothing, that they're employing a double standard. The commentators insist "oh, women can be killed like men, that makes it equal - but this is SEXUALISED violience".

I disagree.

So I decided to play devil's advocate when I saw the Far Cry 3 trailer. Where's the outrage? The first thing you see is a topless woman. The game repeatedly flashes text at you, "fight, eat, fuck, kill" or something to that effect, stating these words over and over, drilling them in as facts, as if they are necessary for your survival.

Then it really begins. The naked woman croons seductively that you are a killer, that you are the best at killing. All those people you're murdering? They DESERVE to die. This is intercut with scenes of people being shot. Just when you think it's all over? RANDOM STRIPPER POLE. In the jungle, a woman poledancing in a bikini. For no reason that the trailer can adequately establish.

"Surely," I thought, "the people outraged at the Hitman trailer will be up in arms about this. The people who were against sexualised violence, this must be reprihensible to them, right?"

No. No outrage. I posted my thoughts on Twitter. No one could understand where I was coming from. "They're just boobs!" they say, as if I am six years old, and am unfamiliar with the idea of nudity. Then they say "oh, well no one is attacking the woman, so it's not sexual violence."

Bull. Effing. Shit.

In truth, people didn't like seeing 47 kill women. They made up a complex lie to hide this fact. The fact that they, by taking issue with the idea of women as a viable threat and a target for violence, were being sexist. They were robbing women of the right to be targets, putting them below men by wanting them removed from the line of fire.

Neither trailer upsets me. What upsets me is the hypocrisy.
Nicely put.

I agree completely. From what you posted the Farcry trailer is clearly the more "offensive" of the 2 because there is no context whatsoever for the "sex."
 

Kahunaburger

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MetalMagpie said:
Is it possible to add "feminism" and "sexism" to Godwin's Law?

Discussions about either of the above lead to nothing but arguments (mostly over semantics). Might as well just killed them as soon as they arise.
Nope. Lots of things are sexist, but not a lot of things are Hitler. Just because pointing out sexism rustles jimmies doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
 

sanquin

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Worgen said:
Apparently you do since a feminist is about equality, people that think its about female domination are getting their definition from the right wing.
I never said female domination... I said women wanting to get special treatment so it feels like they're equal. Also, what part of 'I'm talking from my own experience with both' didn't you get?
 

Treblaine

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The one problem (and solution) is female protagonists in video games. There are not enough and more of them would help. Get people to actually play as females there is going to be less of the separation between "them and us". Walk a mile in their (virtual) shoes.

PS: I have a theory that the Hitman trailer was DELIBERATELY controversial in a facile way JUST to get forum threads made about them to get free exposure for their game. There really isn't much to talk about but the more you talk about it the more the word gets out there a new Hitman game is coming out.
 

Emiscary

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It's not entirely on gamers.

The industry is deadset on staying in its adolescence forever.
 

sanquin

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Mick Golden Blood said:
sanquin said:
While I agree that gamers generally make bad feminists (speaking as a woman myself) I do agree with them this time. Those assassins dressed up in cliché latex porn nun costumes with buy guns. And then all of them getting beaten up by a single man. And then how some of the camera angles were done in the trailer...it's very clearly the BAD form of sexualization.
So just because it's a guy it's "bad sexualization"? SO, you're implying if it was another women kicking their asses it would be okay... Da fuq?

Also what's up with this camera angle thing? I didn't find anything in particular. It seemed pretty straightforward. Yeah, in the beginning it shows off every inch of the ladies, big fucking deal, that was like 10 seconds of the trailer.
No, it's not just because it's a guy. Way to quote mine. It's everything put together that makes it the bad form of sexualization.

And if you don't see what's wrong with some of the camera angles they used then...well, I know what's wrong already. You're a guy. One that probably can't really get in contact with real girls.
 

Colour Scientist

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Jul 15, 2009
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sanquin said:
I said women wanting to get special treatment so it feels like they're equal.
Yes, us feminists want special treatment so we can feel like we're equal rather than, say, actually being equal.

Treblaine said:
The one problem (and solution) is female protagonists in video games. There are not enough and more of them would help. Get people to actually play as females there is going to be less of the separation between "them and us". Walk a mile in their (virtual) shoes.
I'd love if there were more female protagonists in games, apart from games where sex is interchangeable and it doesn't affect gameplay in the slightest. It would be awesome if there were more well-balanced female leads. It would be nice if they made more female characters that weren't made on that 'badder than the boys' template. I don't know if that explains what I mean properly, you know that character type where the woman has a serious chip on her shoulder because every other character in the game is a male and she ends up essentially being a male character with a feminine face?

Kahunaburger said:
rustles jimmies
People should use that term more.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Sorry for quoting a first post, but....

*sigh*

Zappanale said:
You know what I really love? Ever since the Hitman trailer, gamers have undertaken serious studies of feminist theory and put consideration into how social norms have developed to favour male traits above those of female ones.
I hope you're taking the piss here. I REALLY hope you're taking the piss here.

Naw, just kidding, they've become reactionaries for whom sexualization must necessarily mean debasement or exploitation.
*phew* Wait, this isn't much better, actually.

...I kinda prefer the false "expertise" statement. Especially since the "reaction" wasn't solely about sexualisation. But hey, 999 people on this site have knocked down that strawman, why not make it an even thousand?

Feminism is an important social movement, and sadly, judging by the comments that are rapidly spreading throughout game blogs, forums, and so on, more or less all of us have decided instead to become puritan anti-boob crusaders.
Well, that's accurate, and not reactionary in and of itself.

As an example of this, I give you the frankly juvenile comments of Jim Sterling during today's e3 events. These refer to a Far Cry 3 trailer which made the all of a sudden mortal sin of showing a topless women for a few seconds:
When all else fails, voodoo breasts! That's the creed of FarCry 3. #E3
Forget the breasts. That sweet green jungle is what'll obtain and maintain MY penile engorgement. #E3
[deadpan]Yes. You would never have heard a comment like that before the nun assassins.[/deadpan]

Also, see Miracle of Sound's twitter, refering to the host of Ubi's presentation:
Why is she being such a **** to Toby? Does she think being a complete **** is sexy or something? Because it isn't.
Which is problematic in itself, but more for the use of "****" to attack a woman rather than any issue with "anti-boob crusaders."

Amazingly, in an apparent effort to decry sex stereotypes in gaming culture, these guys gone an insisted on viewing everything done through sex-tinted spectacles. This is reactionary- not principled. Indeed, it's not even logical- unless we are to believe having women at all staring in your games, or presenting your e3 shows is an inherently sexual act.
Seems like another massive strawman. It doesn't look like any of these people are against women in games.

Hell, it seems like at least half of the people responding to the issue of the Hitman trailer are defending it, so I'm not even sure why you feel this tirade is necessary. Obviously, we haven't become anti-boob crusaders. Hell, the question of sexism in gaming has been around on this site alone for ages. Hell, why bring it up now? Why not bring it up after the outcry to Aris Bahtanian?

Feminist critiques of culture are often great. But, by and large, it's an art form that gamers have far from perfected. Can we please put these stupid reactionary outrage to bed now?
Reactionary outrage calling for the end of reactionary outrage. It's so meta, it could be an inception sequel.

manic_depressive13 said:
Gamers make bad everything because the majority of the gaming community consists of socially retarded priveleged white kids with a persecution complex. Wah, the women want to dominate us. Oh no, the brown people want to take our jobs. We're having political correctness thrust upon us! Why can't we call people sluts and niggers? This is SO UNFAIR.
I just wanted to applaud you, good sir or madam.
 

Something Amyss

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Emiscary said:
It's not entirely on gamers.

The industry is deadset on staying in its adolescence forever.
But only because they're certain this is what we want. If there wasn't money in it, they wouldn't keep it up.
 

Treblaine

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I wonder - as to the hitman trailer - you the equivalent gender inversion work?

For example, a Beatrix Kiddo type assassin mending her wounds in her house when she is attacked by a punch of guys dressed like BDSM gimps/strippers armed with military weapons.

To me, I think it would work. To me the way the Hitman trailer works is the incronguity between nuns, weapons, sexuality, violence and combat.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
sanquin said:
Worgen said:
Apparently you do since a feminist is about equality, people that think its about female domination are getting their definition from the right wing.
I never said female domination... I said women wanting to get special treatment so it feels like they're equal. Also, what part of 'I'm talking from my own experience with both' didn't you get?
You implied it. And getting your definitions from idiots doesn't really help you much, I mean even wikipedia agrees with my definition of it (yes yes I know). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist

Darkmantle said:
Worgen said:
sanquin said:
Worgen said:
Sounds like someone is getting their definitions from fox news. Actually feminism is about equality, people that say its about female dominance are getting their definition from right wing idiots who seek to discredit it.
I'm getting my definitions from personal experience. The feminists and equalists I've met are as I've described them. Plus, here in the Netherlands we don't really have those right wing idiots you guys have in America.
Apparently you do since a feminist is about equality, people that think its about female domination are getting their definition from the right wing.
you know that lady who opened the first woman's shelter? That brave feminist icon?
yeah her, did you know she also wanted to open a man's shelter shortly after?
do you know who stopped her?
the feminist movement.
I wish I was kidding bud, don't count the other side of the argument out withour debating it.
You cite a story without providing any other information about it, you need to work on that. Plus I never said that everyone who called themself a feminist wasn't a moron or jackass, I just said the ones that are morons or jackasses aren't really feminists. Also, there is a group who call themselves the feminists who do want to see women get better treatment then anyone else but these are't feminists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Feminists
 

Eamar

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Fantastic. It's always so good to see so much wilful misunderstanding of feminism in threads like these. I particularly enjoy the liberal use of extreme examples that haven't held true since the 70s. Almost as much as I enjoy the assertion that modern feminism is just a cover for The Great Conspiracy To Punish Men (TM).

I am a feminist. I really, really care about gender equality and respect for both genders. I know a lot of other feminists, some "organised," some not. Sometimes I get angry about feminist issues. So there you have it, I am a self-confessed, unrepentant "angry feminist."

Guess what? I also have no problem with men. I have lots of male friends. I have a boyfriend. I take part in traditionally male dominated hobbies. Furthermore, I don't like all women. At all. I don't even like all feminists. How is this possible? Because, as a feminist (and, I like to think, as a decent human being) I don't give a monkey's what gender someone is. People are people, they are not defined by their gender. I want more people (male and female) to think like that, because I am a feminist.

Guess what again? Men can be feminists. My own father happily describes himself as such. I'd hope so too, given that he has two daughters. Oh, and he's not under my mother's thumb as some of you are likely imagining. On the flip side, women can very much be anti-feminist.

But hey, what do I know? Some people on the internet have decided they feel threatened by feminism, maybe met a few manhaters once, so it must be evil. I, and all the other feminists I know, male and female, must really hate men and want "special treatment" so we can punish them, we just somehow didn't notice.

One last thing: please, please can we all stop thinking that because someone points out that women have had a rough deal from men in the past, or when they use words like "patriarchy" that it's a personal attack on all men today? It isn't. I know it can be uncomfortable to think about how your gender/race/class/religion/whatever has acted or been portrayed in the past, and I've had to explain this to male friends and to my boyfriend before, but please. It's not about you personally. Acknowledging what has happened in the past doesn't mean you're admitting to any wrongdoing yourself. Once again, feminists don't hate men.

/rant

Thank you.
 

MetalMagpie

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Kahunaburger said:
MetalMagpie said:
Is it possible to add "feminism" and "sexism" to Godwin's Law?

Discussions about either of the above lead to nothing but arguments (mostly over semantics). Might as well just killed them as soon as they arise.
Nope. Lots of things are sexist, but not a lot of things are Hitler. Just because pointing out sexism rustles jimmies doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
But pointing out sexism is a lot like pointing out fascism. In almost all cases (on the internet at least) people are either grossly exaggerating the problem or trying to make a problem where none actually exists.

Complaining about feminism is a little different. It's just an never-ending argument about semantics. Any argument based entirely around what a word means (that isn't taking place at a dictionary convention) isn't really worth having.

Speaking almost-seriously for a moment, I would personally like to see some sort of banned list of topics. One of the bass guitar forums my boyfriend goes on has a sticky titled "Are you looking for a bass guitar to play metal? LOOK HERE FIRST!" because the topic comes up so often it drives regular members insane.

Maybe we could have a sticky for: "Worried about sexism and/or feminists in gaming/game-development/game-journalism? Argue here!"
 

Kahunaburger

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MetalMagpie said:
Kahunaburger said:
MetalMagpie said:
Is it possible to add "feminism" and "sexism" to Godwin's Law?

Discussions about either of the above lead to nothing but arguments (mostly over semantics). Might as well just killed them as soon as they arise.
Nope. Lots of things are sexist, but not a lot of things are Hitler. Just because pointing out sexism rustles jimmies doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
But pointing out sexism is a lot like pointing out fascism. In almost all cases (on the internet at least) people are either grossly exaggerating the problem or trying to make a problem where none actually exists.
Sexism doesn't exist? What planet do you live on? Can I move there?
 

Emiscary

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Kahunaburger said:
MetalMagpie said:
Kahunaburger said:
MetalMagpie said:
Is it possible to add "feminism" and "sexism" to Godwin's Law?

Discussions about either of the above lead to nothing but arguments (mostly over semantics). Might as well just killed them as soon as they arise.
Nope. Lots of things are sexist, but not a lot of things are Hitler. Just because pointing out sexism rustles jimmies doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
But pointing out sexism is a lot like pointing out fascism. In almost all cases (on the internet at least) people are either grossly exaggerating the problem or trying to make a problem where none actually exists.
Sexism doesn't exist? What planet do you live on? Can I move there?
Provided they've got free T-Shirts, I'm in.